Understanding Neurodiversity In College changes how families approach higher education. Host Marc Lehman sits down with clinical psychologist Dr. Matthew “Dr. Matt” Zakreski, author of Neurodiversity Playbook and co-founder of The Neurodiversity Collective. Dr. Matt explains why high school accommodations don’t automatically transfer to university lecture halls, leaving many freshmen feeling completely overwhelmed. They discuss the difference between surviving and thriving when navigating ADHD, dyslexia, and autism on campus. Dr. Matt shares practical self-care routines using the SEEDS protocol to help students build real resilience without burnout. You’ll learn how parents can stay curious instead of furious when communicating through difficult campus hurdles.
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Thriving With Neurodiversity In College With Dr. Matthew Zakreski
Welcome to the show. We are here to talk about mental health and wellness. I am joined by Dr. Matthew Zakreski. Dr. Matt, as many know him by. Dr. Matt, welcome.
Marc, I could not be more excited to be here talking to another mental health professional, another podcaster. There is a lot of synchronicity. We both have names. We’re both in the Bible.
Dr. Matt is a clinical psychologist, author, international speaker, and co-founder of The Neurodiversity Collective. Dr. Matt specializes in helping neurodivergent individuals, including those with ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and giftedness, understand and embrace the unique ways that their brains work. He’s delivered hundreds of presentations around the world and is the author of the Neurodiversity Playbook and hosts the podcast Nerding Out on Neurodiversity.
I love that name. He explores practical strategies, science, and real-life stories that help people thrive. His mission, along with mine, is to replace stigma with understanding and empower individuals, families, educators, and professionals to celebrate neurodiversity as a strength. Welcome.
Marc, thanks for having me. We are very aligned in a lot of things, you and I.
Probably a good place to start for my audience. Neurodiversity is this buzzword that was created a while back. I had alluded to ADHD, autism, dyslexia, giftedness. I guess I’m just asking just in general, what’s neurodiversity?
Rethinking The Neurodiversity Definition
That is the right place to start, because there are still people who are like, “Neurodiversity is just a synonym for autism.” It’s actually way more complex than that. I was actually meeting with a family recently, and they were asking that same question. You guys are from the Indian subcontinent. I could say you’re Asian, because you are from the Asian continent. That is a descriptive view, but it’s also not accurate enough.
You get more nuanced. Obviously, India has over a billion people with different cultural groups and different religions and parts of the country and ethnicities, etc. Broadly speaking, four out of five people are neurotypical. Their brains more or less expect how their brains work. One out of five people are neurodivergent. Their brains are different in both form and function. We can look at brain scans back up. Hold on, this part of the brain is working differently. That also shows up in how that behavior manifests in the world.
Our modern contemporary understanding of neurodiversity comes from the just explosion of brain science that we’ve had over the last 25 years. I always tell people when I’m doing talks, 40 years ago, we couldn’t see inside the brain because the skull got in the way. It was like, “There’s a big white thing in there. Good job. Knock, knock. We’ve proved it.” Now we can use fMRIs and CAT scans and PET scans to see how this actually works. Engaging in that world has actually just exploded our knowledge in what’s different and why and how that shows up.
For so many people, it’s a grounding label, as opposed to an exclusive label, and helps people understand that, you said, the way they think is a bit different than it can be, certainly a strength in many cases, rather than a weakness. For my audience, my audience is mainly college kids and their parents. There are a lot of people out there, Matt, who haven’t been diagnosed, but they know something is a little bit different about the way they think. I guess I’m wondering, if you’re speaking directly to that population, the kid that knows something is atypical, hasn’t seen a therapist, but knows that something’s just a bit different, what would you say to him?
Why High School Accommodations Fail In College
College is where a lot of these kids actually learn that they’re neurodivergent, because if we think about it, you’re in Connecticut, right? Some great high schools in Connecticut. There are some not-so-great high schools in Connecticut, like every other state in America. My sister works in school placement, so she’s always, you want to talk about Avon-owned farms, if you want to talk about every prep school in Connecticut, she can tell you.
Imagine you’re a really bright kid and you figure out how school works in your small town. You sail through middle school. You sail through high school. You really need to develop these skills because you’ve never really been stretched in that way. You get to college where you do not have sixteen years of institutional knowledge. The teachers taught your cousins or your older brother or your older sister or your mom. They know your mom.
Neurodiversity isn't a deficit. 1 in 5 people think differently, and learning how your brain functions is where real strength begins. Share on XNow you’re at the University of New Hampshire, and you’re one of 8, 000 freshmen. By the way, things aren’t as easy as they used to be. Changing an environment often makes things float to the top that weren’t there before. Kids will say to me, “Is it that I cannot handle college?” Maybe for lots of reasons, a kid might not be able to handle college. If there is an undiagnosed, underdiagnosed, or diagnosed and underserved neurodivergence, that’s the first question I’m going to ask.
There’s a kid I worked with who just started at university last year. He was one of those kids. He has pretty significant ADHD. His school built this unofficial 504 plan for him. He’s allowed to walk around, and they’ll email him the notes. It was just a small town that got this kid, and they served his needs. That’s a pretty major state university. He was drowning. I was like, “Now will you maybe listen to me? Let’s start some medication. Let’s start with some structure first.” It’s like he actually had to, but that was the spark that lit the fuse that actually is causing some pretty sizable behavior change.
I was just thinking as we were talking, when I started this podcast three years ago, I thought, I’m not going to have any therapists on because that’s going to be boring, two therapists talking. I’ve since changed my mind and had a few on, like yourself. I feel like this information is so helpful for parents because parents make that assumption. They’ve got this 504 in high school. It’s working.
It’s the bumpers on the bowling alley that the kid needs. You’re now swimming in the ocean, so to speak, in college. It’s like that doesn’t work anymore. More is needed. I really want parents to walk away from this conversation with some practical information. One of which I want to draw out of what you just said is that making the assumption that 504 will just translate and shift over to college is wrong. It doesn’t just shift over, and two, parents are really looking into it.
I’m not a big fan of this label college uses, but disability services on college campuses exist because students are entitled to certain things by state and federal law. Recognizing that, if my kid has let’s use ADHD because you were talking about it, they’re going to need certain things. There are tricks of the trade that you and I know about. There are certainly things we do not know about, but talking to professionals for families ahead of time can be extremely helpful and really anxiety-reducing for students.
Stop Mistaking Surviving For Thriving
Lowering that anxiety is a huge part of our job. It’s hard to say this without sounding condescending. I never mean to. I’d be a pretty lousy therapist if I were condescending, I think. You do not have your mental health figured out. Jeez, probably wouldn’t lead with that. The fact is that the rules are very different in college. If you’re someone who is always able to get by, a phrase that we use a lot in the field is that a lot of people are walking around thinking they’re weird horses, but they’re actually zebras.
Zebras, donkeys, and horses look similar, and they mean similar things. A zebra can hang out in a horse paddock and be but it’s going to do better on the savanna. We’ve reached a point in our culture where we’re mistaking surviving for thriving. If you’re one of those late-in-life dyslexic kids who’s fought their way through every reading and you sneakily do audiobooks and we do not tell anybody, it is amazing you’ve made it as far as you have, but you do not have to work that hard.
I would dare say you even shouldn’t. We’re all about working hard. We do not always work smart. I think that’s really important for our kids to understand that there’s more to this than, “This is my lot in life.” Neurodiversity is not a death sentence. It’s a necessary piece of context to help us understand our lives.
No, I think that’s really well said. Just to further that, I had a student this past year say to me, “It’s not the first.” She said to me as a senior in high school, “I’ve never read a book.” My response back to her is, “How do you think college is going to go? You’re going to have to do some of that.” Your point is a really good one. It’s not a death sentence by any means, but it’s something you have to prepare for and is something you have to watch for. I guess in that vein, let me segue to self-care. It’s a huge topic. It’s a topic that I often talk about on this podcast. Everyone has their own viewpoint on it. I guess I wanted to ask you, when you think about self-care for young adults, what pops up for you?
I think that self-care has to be very individualized. It starts from a place of knowing thyself. You were kind enough to mention my book earlier. I realized that if I was never going to get my book done unless I set myself a time to write my book, but because I have ADHD, I’m better at night than I am in the morning. I wrote my book and tried to write 500 words a day from 9:30 to 11:00 PM every day. Marc, you and I both know brain science. That doesn’t work for a lot of people. There are a lot of red flags in that thing. I know me. As an ADHD-er, as a neurodivergent person, I’m going to interact in the world in a different way.
You don't have to struggle in silence. Stop mistaking surviving for thriving and build tools that fit your unique neurology. Share on XListen, the people who can wake up at 5:00 in the morning and go for a run, God bless them. Straight to heaven as far as I’m concerned. That’s just not me. Maybe your self-care looks like committing to go to bed before 1:00 AM. My head’s on the pillow at 10:30. If you’re a college student, that’s not realistic. A lot of fun stuff in college happens after 1:00 in the morning. I do not want to do that. They want to tell us about it. We’re old now. It’s like, whether it’s diet or exercise or sleep or any of those things, it is vital that we meet kids where they are, because the best way to get people on board with ideas of self-care is actually a lot more about what makes sense for you than it is, here’s the right way to do that.
That’s a really good way of saying it. That’s why I think when I bring it up, all of my guests define it a little bit differently. Obviously, if, let’s say, they’re mostly adults, they’re defining it as these are kids. One of the really cool parts that I find working with young adults is that, with regard to some of the things you mentioned, sleeping, exercise, eating, those types of things, they have access to that. On most college campuses, they can eat well if they choose. They can hopefully get some good rest, and they can definitely get some exercise if they choose. To me, those things certainly have a major impact on mental health and just wellness in general. I’m wondering your thoughts on that.
Building Sustainable Self-Care With SEEDS
I’m a big believer in the SEEDS protocol. What neuroscience shows is that there are five things you can do to support your mental health outside of therapy. Sleep, exercise, education, diet, and socializing. The idea here is like if you lead with those five things, you’re going to increase your mental health, regardless of whether you’re interfacing with somebody like me and you taking ads, whatever it is. I have found, working with a lot of tricky clients, “Listen, you want to talk to me about what’s going on in your life? Let’s do these five things. In the worst case scenario, your life is better.”
Best-case scenario, your life gets better. Now you want to talk to me. It’s this idea because of all the ways you can self-care, it’s paralysis by analysis. There are so many. You’ve got to eat. You’ve got to do yoga. You’ve got to stretch. You got to drink. Dude, I cannot. It’s too much. If I can focus on having one meal a week with friends, check. Making sure in that meal I eat something green, double-check. Making sure that I do not find the closest parking spot to the building. I maybe park one or two rows away. Check.
I’m already in college. The education, maybe just go to class, check. Four of the five of them without any heavy lifting. That stuff is your rising tide that lifts all boats. The cool thing about that modality is that it inherently meets people where they are. If you’re big macs and bacon pizza, all you can do is start where you are. Some of us are vegan and eat green and super. My college diet was a little more of the fried food variety.
I made it through. I’m not in any danger. It’s like giving yourself permission to start where you are. It’s some of the shame out of there. It also lowers the bar to make that, my mentor always said, “In therapy, you want their first step to be so easy they trip over it.” I want you to fall forward into something good. If your first goal is, “I want you to eat a single apple this week,” you’re probably going to do that, and then you get that reward, you get that dopamine, and let’s try week two. That’s how we move that forward.
That’s a great point. Tell us about your podcast. I’m curious.
As a neurodivergent person, I lead with that. That’s part of my personal and professional identity. There’s an authenticity that comes with that within this community. Marc, can I cuss on your show?
Of course. Feel free.
We’re Northeasterners, but I always like to ask. Neurodivergent people are allergic to BS. It’s why we ruffle some feathers. It also puts us in a place to say things like, “I know what it’s like to be smarter than your teacher.” Kids like, “You really do,” or understand that the elite colleges in this country do not celebrate giftedness so much as they celebrate compliance. You’re a kid who follows the rules and does school well, and school is absolutely a skill.
You're comparing your daily struggles to everyone else's highlight reel. Protect your peace by stepping back from digital comparison traps. Share on XYour Harvards, your MIT’s, your Stanfords, they work for you. I push a lot of the kids I work with towards schools more like Brown. That’s inherently more flexible. Princeton is a great school, an Ivy League school. It’s famously difficult to work with when it comes to accommodations. I’d rather you go, just jump across the river to Lafayette, a really good school, but it has a great student support services program.
When we work with neurodivergent kids, we always say the environment is the intervention. How many kids have you worked with over the years, Marc, where you end up changing the school or changing the program and all of a sudden that kid does better? Absolutely, cured, but we found a prep school that gets them or a better fit and fits everything right, especially maybe even certainly when it comes to college because it’s a giant investment.
It sure is. I’m curious to ask because I think you and I have been doing this for similar time frames, Matt. I know for me, in my career, I’ve just seen anxiety in young people and depression in young people move in the wrong direction. One stat that illustrates this, and that’s scary, is that the suicide rate, I think it was ten years ago, was twelve in this age bracket. It’s now two. Those are reported completed suicides. To me, it’s like, “We’re fighting the fight. We’re doing what we’re doing.” I guess I’m curious, why do you think that is? Why are those numbers moving in the wrong direction?
It’s twofold. One is that we keep asking schools to do more, but we do not expand the time or support in the schools.
That’s a good point, yeah.
Teachers are de facto mental health professionals. The schools are the new community mental health. These teachers have to be diagnosticians or referral sources, behavior managers. You’ve got that, and now things are more chaotic, and we’re getting more and more kids de-identified, which means they’re not getting the support they need.
That’s a separate podcast. I do not mean this from a doom-and-gloom, social media is evil. I mean in the sense of being like human beings. We are creatures of comparison. We are social animals. I logged into this. The first thing I’m like, “Man, Marc’s got this nice, crisp shirt on. My shirt’s a little wrinkly because it rained today and it dried funny.”
Looks good, man.
Breaking Free From The Social Media Highlight Reel
I appreciate it, my friend. Maybe you’re like, “Look at that head of hair, that jacket.” That scope of comparison used to be really small. Your town, your school, maybe your rival town. That is narrow. Now all I got to do is pick up my phone, and I can see anybody in the world doing anything at any time. When I talk about this at conferences, I’m like, “Does anybody have that friend who seems like they’re always on vacation every time you log into Instagram? How are you in Bali right now?”
Did I just see you at the grocery store?
Who is paying for these? To me, it’s like, then I’m taking wounds. I’m taking emotional damage from a thing that really has nothing to do with me because I am exposed to it. Middle school, high school, and early college are times when you are really becoming the person you are, which means you are much more susceptible to those outside influences. If it feels like everybody else has a girlfriend and everybody else drives a really cool car and everybody else is getting to their dream school, and everybody else has a good relationship with their parents.
You are going to be depressed and anxious. Since those images and those narratives never stop, what do we always say about suicide? Hopeless, helpless, and worthless. Social media gives you at least hopeless and helpless. Helping our kids unplug, or at least change their cognitive relationship to social media, is, I like to do this exercise with my more athletic kids. I’m like, “You can pick the worst guy in the NFL, the NHL, MLB, whatever it is, and you can find the highlight of that guy hitting a home run, scoring a goal.”
It’s easier with your Michael Jordans, your Derek Jeter’s, but I can make anybody look awesome in a clip. You do not see what goes on behind that. It’s not like you have to acknowledge, “I’m watching everybody’s highlight reel all the time.” Since we’re more aware of our own struggles and inconsistencies, we tend to beat ourselves up on that. It just becomes a place to anchor that conversation, hopefully in a healthier way.
That’s a really good way of saying that. I would add to it that I have a colleague of mine who does this regularly. She looks at phone usage, and you say, “Matt, like, that makes sense. A couple hours a day.” I got kids that are on their phones, and they’re using social media 40 to 50 hours a week. Let’s just think about that for one second. Fifty hours of TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram. It’s certainly something that we did not have when we were younger. Do not get me wrong. There’s plenty on there that’s helpful and good and positive.
There’s also a lot on there that’s not, and those images and around here in Connecticut, one of the things I’ve noticed trend-wise is that you mentioned getting into the school you wanted to write. I’m working with juniors and seniors in high school and then transitioning college students. There are kids, obviously, that are gonna shoot and miss Princeton’s or Harvard’s or Yale’s. To add to it, they then pick up their phone, and they find out four kids in their school posted that they’re having a celebratory party because they got in.
It takes the “I feel like crap” to a whole new low. I guess what I’d like, Matt, as a takeaway for parents to hear is, at least while your child is in your home, let’s say until they’re eighteen, roughly, you can limit their use as much or as little as you choose. A lot of parents will say, “I gave my twelve-year-old full use, and they’re using it 50 hours a week, and what do I do now?” I do the same thing that I would do if I gave them a basket full of candy and they ate it all and got sick.
I’d take it away, I’d limit it, I’d manage it because it’s impacting them in such a negative way. Please, parents, as you’re tuning in, take it from two therapists. There are certainly negative side effects. For lots of kids in those formative years throughout high school, they’re trying to figure out who they’re, what’s positive about them. Why will people like me? Who wants to hang out? All that stuff. They’re watching these images. These images aren’t helping. They’re not helping at all.
Replacing Frustration With Curiosity At Home
Even to add one more layer to that, I think one of the biggest challenges when I work with the parents of teens is that they have forgotten what it’s like to be a teen. When you were sixteen, did you feel like your mom got you? “No, my mom was terrible.” You’re so close. Take that one half step. You could distill my whole therapy ethos into being curious, not furious. “I’m on TikTok 50 hours a week.” Behaviors, communication, instead of being like these kids and these phones.
Listen, dude, if you’re if I were spending 50 hours a week on anything. It tells you something about me. If you were running 50 hours a week, or if you were at theater practice 50 hours a week, or playing Legos 50 hours a week, I would want to know why. I’m curious. Parents think about when you were a teen, when your parents judged you without knowing what was going on, and you stopped communicating. You’re like, “Listen, I’m worried about how much time you’re spending on TikTok, but I also know you well enough to know that there’s a reason. Can you help me understand the reason?”
It’s a great point.
That’s an entirely different conversation rather than, like, “Get off that damn phone.” The kids like, “No.” Now it’s like, “I do not want to fight with my team.” Of course.
It’s a really good point. Tell me this. I’m curious to ask, put you on the hot seat for a sec. You’re talking directly to a sixteen-year-old kid who’s in the midst of some angst, in the midst of trying to figure it all out, and overwhelmed. You’re able to give them one piece of advice. What’s Dr. Matt telling them?
My one piece of advice is: I tend to speak in bumper stickers. People indeed have it better than you. It is also true that people have it worse than you. If you extrapolate those numbers, there are literally billions of people who have it better than you. There are also literally billions of people who have it worse. In this life, we do not play the misery Olympics because if you start doing this, I shouldn’t be upset that I did not get into Yale.
I only got into Yukon because Jimmy over there did not get into Yukon. He’s got to go to Bridgewater’s community college. You have a right to feel how you feel about that. This connects to, I guess, the second part of the point is you are allowed to feel however you feel about whatever happens to you. That is your right as a human being. You are not allowed to make your feelings somebody else’s problem.
I like that. That’s important. It’s interesting because so often when I talk to young adults, I ask them just the basic question, “How do you feel about that?” They really do not know. They really have to take a pause and really think about it, but it’s an interesting conversation to have because let’s face it, life moves really fast especially for young adults, they do not often, until they’re sitting in our offices, they do not often really think about that stuff.
There’s one particular kiddo from several years ago who comes to mind, and he was studying accounting, and he comes into my office, and he just says, “I f***ng hate accounting.” I said, “I get it. Just out of curiosity, though, why are you majoring in it? Why?” He goes, “It’s because my dad’s an accountant.” I go, “You do not like it. This is about your life and your career. We should really think about this because a career is like potentially 50 or 60 years.” That’s the power of therapy is to be able to have those conversations slowed down a little bit and really get a sense of what makes a person truly happy versus maybe what doesn’t.
This ties in really nicely with what we were saying before about how school is just getting more and more filled with more and more things. Who’s got time to sit with their thoughts? I am very open that I go to therapy because of the one hour a week where I force myself to slow down and do nothing else. I shut down all my emails. I shut down my social media. I put my phone away. For that hour, I am here at this moment.
Even if I do not get shit done in therapy, which I’m lucky I have a good therapist, I often do get shit done in therapy. That power is a gift. We referenced the social media thing earlier, like everyone’s like, “Man, the anxious generation.” It’s fine. It raises some good points. To me, the best book that I would have any parent read, other than my book, which is, of course, available right now, but the book that changed my life when working with these kids is the Race to Nowhere.
It’s a good book. It’s an arms race. Everyone’s like, “I have to work harder. I have to do more. I have to have marks. I need to be the lead. I need to get straight A’s, big.” Nobody wants to be doing it like your client. “I do not want to major in accounting, but I have to major in accounting because I have to get a good job. I have a good job. I live in a good summer. I live in Darien, and I have a theory.” I said, “Holy crap, dude.”
Slow down.
“You haven’t pledged a fraternity yet. You do not need to know what you want to be.” It’s this idea that every time a teen can raise their hand and say, “I need a break,” every parent says, “You do not need to fully maximize 24 hours a day.” Every high school that says, “You matter more to us as a person rather than a series of numbers on an application,” starts to turn that ship, however slowly, towards a life satisfaction model rather than a success-or-die model. We’re seeing it now. We’re seeing it in our offices. It’s unsustainable. I would love to be out of a job, Marc.
Totally. You make a great point, though. Colleges in particular become businesses. I’m reminded of it often in some of the decision-making that goes on that I hear about, and it’s like, how about a student’s happiness? How about a student’s future success? Those are things that, in many ways, the student and their families really have to advocate for, really look out for, so I’m curious, your book, let’s talk about that for a second, if we can. First of all, the name of it again is?
It’s called the Neurodiversity Playbook.
Tell us.
It’s all about, so if 4 out of 5 people are neurotypical, the world is built for and by neurotypical people. The analogy I often use, Marc, is let’s say you’re having a dinner party.. What do you make for your dinner party?
Steak, chicken.
You cannot go wrong with steak. Except I’m bringing my wife, and my wife is vegan.
Good question.
I do not know. Do you slam the door and say, “You cannot come in?” Neurodivergent people aren’t saying that we do not want to come to the dinner party. We’re also not saying you have to throw the steak away because I’m vegan. You’re saying, “Is there something on the table I can eat?” That’s why it’s not about masking and hiding your true self. It’s about the ability to code-switch. I’m going to talk to you very professional-to-professional right now on a show. It would look different than if you and I were on a case consultation. We’ve got a good vibe, and we work well together, clearly.
That thing, it’s a different code because the demand is shifted. Neurodivergent people tend to be very what we call context-independent. They’re themselves all the time. I’m in math class and in gym class and at a funeral and at prom and at freshman orientation. I’m me, whereas most neurotypical people are very context-dependent. They’re going to be a very different person in math class and gym class and prom and a funeral and orientation. If you understand that’s just how your brain is wired, it allows you to intentionally bring the skills and approaches you need to the different environments that are going to demand different things from you.
Great way of putting it. Excellent way of putting it.
I really tried to codify all that. There are questions there about how to do small talk and how to deal with failure. When you’re interacting with somebody socially, and they seem disengaged, what do you do? It’s the thing, I’m a brain nerd. I mentioned before how we can actually see the brain working differently now. Mirror neurons?
Yes. Yawning.
We love mirror neurons. When I’m teaching, I love to be like, “In case you do not think mirror neurons work,” and I’ll just take my water like, “What? Are you a witch?” There’s research out of Yale that says that neurotypical people’s mirror neurons work at a very specific cadence. People’s neurons work on a different cadence. You could say it’s like if neurotypical people are in 4/4 time, neurodivergent people are in 16/16 time. Sync up every once in a while. I’m getting the gist of what you’re saying, but I’m missing a lot of context. My brain is going too fast. If you understand that this is just how my brain is, I think it moves the line of engagement from “I’m screwed up” to “my brain works differently.” Healthy shift.
Really good refund. Where can we get a hold of it?
It is on Amazon. It’s on my website. If you contact me, I will sign a copy and mail it to you.
I will definitely encourage my audience. Sounds like a fantastic book. I really like the premise, the concept. I really want to urge my audience to go out and buy the book. Really cool way of framing things as well. I’m curious to ask you. One of the things I come across so often with my college kiddos, especially my transitioning freshmen, is that they come in thinking they’re going to have a leap to college, and they actually have a huge leap. Within the first week, sometimes, sometimes it’s the first two weeks, they become really overwhelmed.
Whether they’ve understudied for an exam and they get a 42, or they haven’t made friends because they’re terrified to talk to people. They’re not extroverts. Whatever the reason is, the worst part is that those kids will get on the phone with their parents and they’re like, “Johnny, how are you doing?” Johnny says, “I’m fine, Mom. How are you?” Nobody really knows that Johnny’s struggling, and that’s the start of the struggle. The “I’m fine.” I’m curious to ask you your thoughts on the “I’m fine” from newbies in college.
Moving Past The Fine Trap On Sunday Calls
I am always a big believer in the old therapy nugget that fine is an acronym for freaked out, insecure, neurotic, and emotional.
There you go.
One thing that worked really well for me, and I certainly had a head start here, both of my parents are clinical psychologists as well. I have that. My mom would ask me during our Sunday night talks. We always talked on Sunday. She’s like, “Give me a good thing, a boring thing, and a bad thing.” It forced me to think in those terms because it’s to play stupid games, win super prizes, like, fine. It’s a dumb question.
Give you a dumb answer.
It’s the thing, like, parents, you need to understand that you’re, like, in American culture, we put so much energy and emphasis on college, capital C, college. It’s supposed to be great. It’s supposed to be awesome. It’s supposed to be great and awesome, with the song. I’ve watched all the best years of your life. Come on, or else shake. Instead, think about how much pressure your kid is under to not just do well in college but have an epic college.
I tell my clients I came this close to transferring after my freshman year. I made a stupid social faux pod at an early party. I burned some bridges there academically. I was fine because I’m a smart kid, but frisbee wasn’t going as well as I would like all the arts things that I could do in high school because I was a guy from a small town. It actually takes talent to do it, it turns out. I’m not that good at it, so I was miserable. My mom asking, “Good thing, boring thing, bad thing,” just allowed me to keep having those conversations. It kept me from hiding behind a “fine.”
Tired of hearing 'I'm fine' on every Sunday call? Try asking for one good thing, one boring thing, and one bad thing instead. Share on XI love that framework. I encourage parents all the time to consider how you ask, because how you ask is how they’re going to answer. To a lot of parents who do not do this, I grew up with an engineer and a teacher, and my parents were decent communicators, but I’ve certainly come across many families that are terrible communicators. They do not know how to ask questions. They ask closed questions.
Kids answer them with one word, like a grunt, and they’re not sure what’s going on, but it’s like, consider how you frame the question. Also, I try to highlight for families that most kids, when they leave high school, do not care how prepared that high school has made them. The leap to college is huge. It’s so different. The environment is different. You’re literally going from a town where sometimes kids have known kids for thirteen years to an area where they know nobody.
They do not even necessarily know where the buildings are. The weather could be different. Everything’s different. Consider that and recognize, “If you use a format as you suggested, something good, something boring, something difficult, I like that.” It gives them the opportunity. I like what you said. It pushes them past the finds. Let’s just be real about this. You and I are definitely straight shooters. Not every family is, and I got to sometimes tone down my straight-shooter-ness in session because not everybody can handle it.
In college, those kids, your kids, every kid out there needs support. Whether it’s the Marcs or the Dr. Matts of the world, or any other adult on campus, or certainly their parents, a lot of times the fact is that things aren’t fine, and things are really messy. That’s okay because that’s how we grow. As you said, I transferred as well after my first year. I was getting a 2/3 my first year, and then I transferred to UConn, and I got a 3/9, and I figured out, “Maybe I’m not dumb because I thought I was dumb.”
At some point, it’s really about recognizing how hard you work and how much support you need. If you get both of those, you crack the code. You figure it out. We’ve offered a lot, Matt. I really appreciate you sitting with me and sharing your level of expertise. For those of my audiences that are lucky enough to be in the New Jersey area and can treat you and work with you, I encourage you guys to reach out to Dr. Matt. You offer a lot of great information.
Go out and get his book. I appreciate you spending some time. Matt, I prepped you for this, but I’m curious. Normalize it forward. I had the sense when I started to put all of my guests in a position to nominate a friend, a coworker, a relative to try to keep the conversation moving forward more to align with your mission as well of bringing stigma down and openly talking about wellness. Any thoughts as to who a future guest might be for me to have on the show?
Dude, I’m going to give you my whole Rolodex. The name that floated to my head when you asked the question and floated back up is Dr. Emily King. She’s down in North Carolina, and she’s an incredible psychologist. She’s got a book coming out herself, but she’s got two very different neurodivergent kiddos. One of whom just graduated high school. Their journey into post-secondary education is going to look and feel a lot different than the other people in this pretty well-to-do section of Raleigh.
She leads those conversations from a place of genuine humility, and also, at the end of the day, the thing that matters is what’s best for our kids. We could absolutely jam this kid in a square peg round hole into NC State or Duke or whatever and watch him come back by Christmas. We can say, “What does this kid need from us right now?” Build a framework that gives them the longest on-ramp they need to get to where they need to go. Emily would be the perfect person to join this awesome pod.
I really appreciate the recommendation. I’ll get her contact information from you offline, but thank you so much for recommending Emily and just spending some time with us, Matt. I appreciate not only you taking some time, I’m sure you’re seeing patients today, but also that I can tell your care, concern, and knowledge base for the neurodivergent community are awesome. It’s really awesome. Thank you for what you do. I just want to cheer you on from up here in Connecticut. Keep doing what you’re doing.
It means a lot. You take the time out of your day to create this space where I can share this thing. It is, really. It can be a mutual love fest. How about that?
I appreciate it. Let’s stay connected. Have a great day, Matt. Take care. Bye-bye.
Important Links
- Dr. Matthew Zakreski
- Dr. Matthew Zakreski on LinkedIn
- The Neurodiversity Collective
- Neurodiversity Playbook
- Nerding Out on Neurodiversity on Spotify
- Race to Nowhere
About Dr. Matthew “Dr. Matt” Zakreski
Dr. Matthew “Dr. Matt” Zakreski, a clinical psychologist, author, international speaker, and co-founder of The Neurodiversity Collective. Dr. Matt specializes in helping neurodivergent individuals—including those with ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and giftedness—understand and embrace the unique ways their brains work.
He has delivered hundreds of presentations around the world, is the author of Neurodiversity Playbook, and hosts the podcast Nerding Out on Neurodiversity, where he explores practical strategies, science, and real-life stories that help people thrive. His mission is to replace stigma with understanding and empower individuals, families, educators, and professionals to celebrate neurodiversity as a strength.
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