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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | TJ Mathieson | Youth Sports Pressure

Navigating Youth Sports Pressure And High Performance With TJ Mathieson

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | TJ Mathieson | Youth Sports Pressure

 

Marc Lehman sits down with former NCAA hockey player and national cycling champion TJ Mathieson to tackle the intense reality of youth sports pressure. Young competitors face crushing expectations every single week, and learning how to manage that weight makes all the difference. TJ shares how treating personal health like an engineering system helped him master recovery and peak performance. They discuss why building genuine self-confidence and self-acceptance protects kids far better than chasing external validation. You’ll discover practical ways parents and coaches can open real conversations that help young people find their own unique path. Connect with TJ Mathieson by email at tj@missioneer.co.

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Navigating Youth Sports Pressure And High Performance With TJ Mathieson

We are here to talk openly about mental health and wellness. I am so fortunate to be joined by our guest, TJ Mathieson. TJ, how are you?

I’m fantastic. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Thanks for being here. I appreciate it. TJ is the Founder of Missioneer, a defense and mission architecture firm, helping organizations solve some of the world’s most complex aerospace, space, and national security challenges. Before launching Missioneer, TJ spent more than twenty years leading mission integration and system engineering efforts, including serving as a chief mission architect at Northrop Grumman.

Beyond his career in engineering, TJ is a former NCAA Division I hockey player at the University of Notre Dame. He’s also a USA Cycling National Champion, a youth hockey coach, a licensed pilot, and a passionate mentor. His unique perspective on leadership, teamwork, resilience and high performance, both on and off the ice, make him an incredible guest. TJ, welcome.

Thank you. I appreciate the introduction.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | TJ Mathieson | Youth Sports Pressure

 

I have to tell you, as someone who enjoys cycling myself. Let’s chat a little bit about that. USA Cycling National Champion, tell me about it.

Mastering The Mental Side Of Sprint Cycling

It’s a fun story. I moved to Australia for work and found myself riding on a velodrome, so a banked track, a circular track. From my days from ice hockey, the anaerobic aspect of sprinting on the track came naturally. I got out there. It was an absolute rush. I loved it. I got into racing on Friday nights in a very small town in Australia and realized, “I can do this.” When I moved back to the United States, I picked it up, competed in some local races, and made my way into the national scene somewhat quickly just by, again, natural experience at that similar type of muscle output.

I found that I loved it. I’d love mountain biking growing up. This was very technical. It’s a technical race. If you follow track cycling at all, it’s very precise. It’s very quick. Things happen in an instance. The longest race I did was called a Kieran. It was about eight laps long. It lasted maybe two minutes. Everything was prepared. Talking about the mental aspect of sports. You had to do all your preparation for a 30 second race or a minute long race or a two minute long race. There was very little room for error and I loved it. I thrived on that. That’s the quick version of it.

That’s a pretty cool story. You’re an athlete through and through. I’m assuming your big sport growing up was hockey.

It was.

At what age did you start playing that?

I got into it about nine years old. I started asking my parents when I was seven if I could play hockey. No one in the family played, but I happened to see it on TV. I happened to go to a professional game or two, and thought, “That looks like a blast. I’d love to try that.” I spent about two years petitioning my parents to let me try, and they convinced me or tried to convince me to go try other sports first.

They said, “Make sure you want to do this before you get into it.” Finally, once I gave it a go, they realized it was a blast, and they loved it, too. We got all in and from that point forward, from about nine years old on, it became the central aspect of physical output and physical activity. The focus of what we did on weekends. It became a lot of fun.

You’re downplaying the amount of time spent because I’ve treated a lot of kids that play hockey. It seems like they’re living at the rink, and so are their parents. A lot of dedication.

The Hidden Demands Of The Youth Hockey Grind

You hit it spot on. I mentioned weekends. It was also 3-4 nights a week. It did become a lifestyle. Even during my senior year of high school, I would jump in the car after high school and drive an hour and a half to practice. After practice, I grab a quick bite to eat and then drive an hour and a half home, start homework and rinse and repeat. I did that pretty much every day for a year. It is a lifestyle.

That is serious dedication. I’m curious. You’ve got this hockey background and the cycling background. As you’re talking, I’m thinking to myself, how taxing that must have been for a young person to go through. I’m impressed when I have a young person in my office and they’ve dedicated that amount of time to a sport at such a young age. I’m wondering the biggest downside that you saw growing up, dedicating that much space and time to a sport.

The social aspect of high school is what suffered for me. A lot of my friends ended up being my hockey teammates. Even competitors that I saw on a regular basis became friends with them because I spent more time at the rink, more time on the road than I did at home with friends. That was a hard aspect to it. The best way I looked at it at that point in time was, I need to get through this weekend. We’re traveling.

When a race lasts under two minutes, mental preparation and zero hesitation make all the difference. #NormalizeItForward Share on X

I’m home next weekend. I’m going to take a break and I’m going to spend some time with friends.” That’s my chance to catch up. It almost became a week by week. Survival sounds a little too harsh, but in a way, it was, get through this week and do everything I can to maximize the output, the performance and reset, recover and start over and maybe have a different goal for the next.

Interesting. It requires a ton of focus and the ability to dedicate, which a lot of young people don’t have, at the detriment, as you said. Something’s got to give. The social aspect comes out of that. I’m curious. You shared with me offline that you’re coaching. You’re coaching your kids’ teams. It puts you in a position I counted once because I coached my son in baseball. I coached him for nineteen seasons.

It allowed me to be around not only my son. I had the best seats in the house, watching him grow up on the baseball field, but also around a lot of other kids and meeting his friends and just meeting other kids. It taught me a lot as to what kids go through, the ups and the downs. I’m curious as a coach. What are some of the things you see with young people? I know it’s a big question.

It’s a very big question and it’s a very important one. It has been fascinating to be there in the locker room and to be part of the team. Be part of the culture on the bench and you see growth. The best way to put it is you see growth in every single person, generally for the positive. There are swings, ups and downs throughout any given season.

The composure of the team changes from year to year. As a coach, I try to instill a baseline of what is right and wrong. Essentially bring respect into everything you do and most things fall into place afterwards. Experiment is too strong of a term, but it takes them some time to find what that means to them.

Having a front row seat to that, again, I’ll use the term experimentation, to that adaptation, is probably a better term, for 10 to 13-year-olds. It is fascinating. As long as the support structure around them is there, strong with the parents, the coaches, the other players. I’ve had good luck and seen good teams, players and people work through ups and downs. It’s a bit of a long-winded answer, but it is. It’s a complicated question.

It’s a great answer. It is complicated. I agree.

I enjoy being there because I like that aspect of teaching, coaching and mentoring in a way to find what works and what doesn’t for each individual player. It is very different for each player. You mentioned a brief bit in the introduction. My background is systems engineering. Everything to me is a system, including the people, the players and the team.

There are certain days and weeks where players will click. They’ll work well together, and certain weeks where things aren’t coming together. It might be someone again, exploring what their emotions mean in a team setting and how that affects the overall team. Again, it’s lots of exploration at this age range.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | TJ Mathieson | Youth Sports Pressure

 

I’m a family therapist and I was trained in family systems. When you said that, I’m like, “That’s interesting.” I, too, thought through that mindset all the time when I was coaching and there’s so much to that, kids and their interactions. I told the story. I had a friend ask me, of all the of all the times I coached, does anything stick out to me? I said, “I had this one practice years ago. The kids were just riding each other and it was not a great practice.”

Breaking Team Tension With Structured Play

I thought, “I could do what every coach does and keep going. Everyone will be miserable and we’ll go home crying,” or I could go to my car and I happen to have a kickball in my car. I grab the kickball. We had the greatest practice ever. Parents were like jumping the fence to play kickball and the kids just loved it to the point where I’ve had kids recently. This was like fifteen years ago. I’ve had kids say to me, “Do you remember that?” I’m like, “I totally do.” In some ways, that’s our job, is to teach kids that, 1) Sports can be fun. 2) How to work together. When you work together, it’s amazingly powerful.

That’s a great story. I love it. We had days where we played dodgeball on the ice. A reset and get people out of a rut and try to find something that is a collective topic to gel on. That’s a great idea.

That’s maybe a good segue to talk a little bit about. Kids are under a lot more pressure than we were. When you look at the stats around things like anxiety and depression, they’re higher than ever. In some ways, kids are talking more openly about mental health but they’re also struggling and suffering in some ways more now than ever. I wonder. There’s a lot of factors involved. You’re a dad of three and you’re watching your kids grow and they’re around other kids. Any of your own thoughts as to maybe why the mental health stats aren’t in a good place?

Navigating The Modern Avalanche Of Performance Expectations

You made a good point that it’s becoming a topic of conversation, which is, I’ll say, the first step towards progress. That also indicates there are a lot of challenges that we collectively, as a community, whether it’s a hockey community or a school community or even a family. We have to work through and the pressures are real. I see that internal of the family, not intentionally, but we certainly apply those pressures indirectly.

Both my wife and I work. We have fairly rigorous schedules and the expectation is that the kids will follow suit. They’ll also have fairly rigorous schedules, but they’re also kids. They also need to play. That’s internal to the family structure. As you get into the school structure, there’s always the competitive aspect of grades, of who’s in the top class. There’s no escaping it.

Some people find the drive and competitiveness positive. Others find it overwhelming. The ability to find the right way to approach it, again, as a system. I always get back to systems. That each person in the system, the inputs and the outputs, equal the overall success. Trying to find the right inputs, the right drive, the right push is something that requires attention and requires fine tuning and continual fine tuning. It’s not just an answer today that sticks forever. It’s an answer today that works today, and an answer perhaps tomorrow that works differently. That’s how I see it in terms of where things have gotten to.

Sometimes the best coaching move isn't another hard drill. It's pulling out a kickball and resetting the mood. #TeamCulture Share on X

It’s a good way of looking at it. I asked you a bit of an unfair question because you hit the nail on the head. Every kid’s different. Whether you’re coaching them or mentoring them or parenting them. Every kid is different and every kid’s needs are different. You have some kids that juggle three sports in a given season pretty easily. You have other kids that are overwhelmed with one sport or some kids that don’t want to play sports.

I feel like there’s a little bit of everything out there from one kid to the next. Our job as adults, our job as parents around some of these kids is to try to figure out individually what their needs are, but you’re right. There’s a degree of, we can’t escape it. We live in a fairly intense world. I can imagine the University of Notre Dame and USA Cycling. I can imagine those are intense environments where you probably saw a handful of people not be able to handle the pressure.

I did. Certainly, in the academic side of things at a fairly challenging institution, on the athletic side of things. As you continue in a sport, people begin to drop out. It’s the natural pyramid that happens. Sometimes, it’s because they have peaked. They’ve hit the max for their skill. Sometimes, it’s the mental aspect of it. It does get extremely demanding. I saw all kinds of things. Me and myself, I love the mental aspect of it, but I had hit the peak of my skill. I topped out. I realized that. I accepted it. I moved on and ended up in a different sport and then went through that whole process again.

It is real in terms of watching the pressures, feeling the pressures, and trying to find a way. I go back to high school and I try to get through a given week. It sometimes shrunk down to a given day, a given practice. Can I get through this practice and take a deep breath and reset? That’s what helped me. It doesn’t always work that way for everybody, but I had to find at least a solution to get through from day to day.

TJ, I can imagine there’s some athletes reading and they’re thinking, “This guy’s played hockey at a pretty high level. He’s an athlete by nature.” I’m curious to ask suggestions for those athletes that are reading in terms of how to manage the day to day.

I’m pausing on my answer right there because I have a lot I love to talk about. What I learned transitioning from a team sport into an individual sport was a totally different way to have a retrospection, to look inside, and figure out what’s going on. When you have a team sport, when there are mistakes or things happen, there’s a team there to cover. Very rarely is a loss pinned on one person. Generally, if that happens, it’s egregious, but it’s rare. In individual sports, performance is yours. It’s your own. You own that. It is extremely noticeable.

Treating Physical And Mental Recovery Like A System

In the sport that I got into, like track cycling. Races were won and lost by hundreds of a second, every aspect of your preparation made a huge difference. More importantly, every aspect of your recovery made the biggest difference. We went through this entire process of learning max peak output. How can you do that? Once you’ve topped out there, you have to look at other things. What we found was the recovery. Not even your performance, your active performance, but your passive performance. Your recovery performance made the biggest impact.

In order to mentally be prepared for the race, you had to do all the things and you had to take time off. You had to let your mind rest and your body rest. You had to take moments to do a cold plunge to get a massage to recover the muscles to do something mentally stimulating to make sure you weren’t constantly in the drive of go. We put together a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet for day by day. Here are all the things that you can do to recover. You get scores. You get points for each one.

The goal was to try to maximize those points on any given day and correlate that to performance the very next day. Again, what we found from empirical data, from doing it over and over again, in very controlled settings, when we would practice and train. We were in an indoor velodrome. There was no wind. The conditions were perfect every single day. You could essentially equate what you did the day before almost directly to how you did the next day.

It became a 24-hour cycle. Can you maximize recovery on the given day, which includes mental recovery, spiritual recovery, physical recovery, everything? Could you maximize that and determine what had the biggest output or the biggest contribution to your output the next day? That’s my long-winded answer to say there is a lot that can be done, but it is structured. Being able to correlate taking time off to performance the next day through experimentation does pay off.

I love that. It’s a great answer. My takeaway when I’m listening is, I find myself working with young adults in college and talking to them about self-care all the time. These are non-athletes and the importance of sleep. The importance of eating right, prayer, meditation, and getting some exercise. Your athletes have that built in some ways. Many young people don’t do that well. They may do one of them well, but they don’t do all of them well. In a very formal way, your point of tracking that and recognizing the output and the next day, reward, let’s say, of cycling better or cycling faster, getting a benefit from is an interesting segue.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | TJ Mathieson | Youth Sports Pressure

 

I say so many young people in college, or many young people in general, don’t often think of these things. When I bring them up, I bring them up more in a way of like, “These are tangible things you can do.” You put your phone down early and get some rest. You’re buying your brain two more hours of sleeping and that’s invaluable for young kids eating decently.

I’m a pretty decent eater and I’m amazed when I hear kids talk about what they’re eating and what they’re putting in their bodies. Many young people nowadays don’t necessarily think about that connection between what we’re eating and how we’re feeling. I’m curious on a more general non-athletic basis. You’re around lots of young kids with your coaching. I’m curious as to what you see on that level of self-care.

I’ll be honest, I don’t see it. It’s not there yet. Part of that is that the age range is more forgiving. The bodies tend to burn whatever fuel they’re given. There are performance benefits to better fuel. As people get older, as they get into their teenage years and into their twenties, that performance correlation between inputs and outputs becomes more noticeable. I’ll say at the 10 to 13-year-old range, I’m continually amazed by what they can eat and what they can produce. It’s fascinating, but as we begin to talk about it, because I do every year. I sit down and talk to the team about the exact thing we spoke about, which is recovery and which includes nutrition.

Everyone says, “This is fascinating. I’d love to learn more about that,” and we talk about it. I’ll see them eating pizza between games. We always have to get back to it. We got to practice what we preach, so let’s now go do this. It tends to only come into play when there are extremely strenuous weekend tournaments when you have 5, 6, 7 games. By that seventh game, the fuel that they choose to eat starts to show.

Anything less than that, honestly, there’s a lot more forgiveness in that age range. I haven’t done the science, the research behind it to find out exactly why, but some kids of that age tend to think they’re invincible because they can eat whatever and still perform. The other side of this is trying to convince them it will catch up, and so start practicing it now to make sure that by the time you get there, you’re at least prepared and you’re knowledgeable about it.

You can't out-train poor recovery. Peak performance starts with what you do during your downtime. #YouthAthletes Share on X

I’m smiling because I’m fond of memories of kids walking to my office with these swirly, very blue drinks from Starbucks. I’m like, “What in the world are you drinking?” Kids at that age seem to process that stuff pretty well and way better than we do. It is a hard sell because if kids, young kids aren’t seeing it as an issue, then it’s like we’re just talking. We’re not necessarily making a shift. I’m curious, though. Mental health nowadays is making the topic. It’s making more of an appearance at a younger and younger age.

It’s unfortunate because, I’m hearing the dreadful word, suicide. I’m hearing about suicides of younger and younger kids. Certainly, kids in high school, but even in middle school. In middle school, I was still learning how to tie my shoes and these kids are dealing with major issues. I’m curious because your kids are creeping up in that age bracket. It’s a hard topic for parents to talk about and I was curious about your points of view and your thoughts on that particular topic from a dad’s perspective.

Fostering Unshakeable Self-Acceptance In Teens

It’s terrifying, honestly. It seems that the exposure surface of kids these days is significantly larger than will be experienced in our days. Partly because of digital media, digital profiles. The fact that there is access to a larger audience, both on the good and the bad sides of that. Our conversations center around self-confidence, being happy with what you bring, how you bring it, and what you can do with it, because it is different. That’s a positive.

Trying to be somebody else is doing yourself a disservice because your particular wiring, your particular composure, composition, is made to allow you to do things that other people can’t do. As a dad, I try to center conversations around that. That was one thing. I’ll be honest. When I was that age, probably high school. I do recall going through some challenges and having challenges with friend groups. I mentioned early on that I didn’t have an active social scene because of hockey travel.

My friends tended to be in the hockey world. When I was in the school world, I had to find my way. It got to a point where I had to learn to accept who I was and bring that into whatever conversation, whether it fit or it didn’t. It took me until about 15 or 16 years old to learn that aspect of it. From that point forward, I felt like a different person. That no matter how the conversation went, if I had to excuse myself from it, I could.

It didn’t bother me quite as much having a little comfort in that. I’m trying to figure out how to pass that on to my boys so that they don’t go through the challenges to get to that point but feel comfortable with who they are from the beginning. Again, I don’t have the job that you do. I don’t know the science behind it, I know having that level of comfort gives a cushion, a pad from what might be surrounding you.

There’s so much about that answer that I love. First of all, thank you for sharing that and just being genuine. Also, the self-confidence/self-acceptance concept is huge. Every parent is wanting to help their kid be more confident but maybe not so willing as you. You put it well, to look at the individual things. Their makeup and what they’re good at and ride that. You have some kids that are great at acting.

Maybe play is their thing. You have other kids that are fantastic at drawing and maybe art is their thing. Helping them explore their default setting and this is them. This is what they’re good at and this is what makes them feel good. Versus, shoving them in a square peg into a round hole. It’s like, “That doesn’t often work.”

I also have to say I can imagine a lot of people. What you said about high school, I can imagine a lot of people identify with that because a lot of people that I know have gone through that. It’s one of those experiences of a high schooler and you’re reading this and you know they’re going through it. Talk to them about it. Put yourself out there. If you’re their coach, mentor, therapist, or just a neighbor and you happen to know that a high schooler might be going through it. You may be the only person that asks them, “How’s it going? What’s new? What’s going on?” You’d be shocked at what comes out of a person’s mouth because those are some hard years.

They can be, and one thing to add to that aspect of individualism. Many times finding that niche, that thing that drives with someone, only happens through trying a broad array of different things. Exposure is hard. It takes time. It takes conscious effort to go out and try an acting class, an acting class, if you never had one, to go try an art class. Use those two examples to go on some outward-bound style adventure and see if maybe the outdoors is it.

Honestly, the more exposure, the more that vision of self-exposure worth seems to formulate. I’m starting to see that with some of the players that I coach. That’s only through conversation of, “What do you like to do? Have you thought about it? Go explore this. You seem to love whatever it might be.” I’m by no means an expert in all those things, but at least the encouragement seems to help. Back to your idea of, having the conversation with the high schooler and giving encouragement is huge. It’s the support structure.

Opening Genuine Conversations Through Simple Curiosity

It is. I hadn’t shared with you, but I have another business called U Are Heard. It’s a virtual private practice where we see students in college all over the country. We support them when they’re away at school. The whole reason I named it U Are Heard is I want kids to have that voice. I want kids to have the ability. I want everybody to understand you don’t have to be a therapist. You don’t have to be a coach.

If you are an adult in a kid’s world, you can be extremely impactful. Sometimes just asking that open-ended question, “What do you enjoy?” That elusive self-confidence, which I look at, by the way, is the opposite to anxiety. A kid who has self-confidence has less anxiety. Every parent’s looking for that. They’re looking to help restructure that for their own kid. It’s a matter of asking those questions and digging a little bit and trying to get a sense of like, what makes this particular kid unique and special? I feel like every kid has something. It’s just a matter of finding it.

You don't need all the answers to support a young person. Just listen closely and ask the next question. #MentalHealth Share on X

That was a great answer. I have to say I was blown away by your answer, honestly. It was pretty awesome. You offer a great perspective of both. I apologize. I didn’t touch much on your engineering, but with regards to athletics and your own, not only your own story, but your coaching and also being a dad. You have that triple background of perspective on kids. None of us have all the answers, TJ. We’re all doing our best and we’re trying. To me, that trying goes a long way when a kid recognizes, “You’re not just that person.” Who asked me, how are you doing, then they kept walking. You actually care, and we all have the ability to do that if we choose to.

Certainly. It doesn’t take much time. Honestly, it’s listening to the answer and then asking a follow-up question. That bit of interest goes a long way. I always come back as a coaching player or even mentoring. I do a lot of mentoring with college students about career exploration. Some athletes, and some not.

Many of them tend to feel overwhelmed by, “I feel like I should go do investment banking because everyone does investment banking.” You start to find out what they like, and it’s completely different. I’m like, “Have you thought about taking an anthropology class? Try it. See what you think.” That conversation and encouragement, “Maybe I’m going to explore that. It seems to go a long way.” For hope, if nothing more.

I keep coming back to that phrase, “Life is a journey. You don’t have to have all the answers immediately. Even though young kids think they have to. They don’t have to, and you’re constantly evolving. If I had told you when you were playing hockey at Notre Dame, you’re going to be cycling in the velodrome. You’d be like, “What’s that?” That’s an important point to make and for kids to understand big time. Can I put you on the spot for one second?

Absolutely.

People love that question. In Normalize it Forward, the way I created it is I want the conversation to continue to move in the direction of having more open conversation about mental health and wellness. I typically will ask each of my guests if they have a friend, a coworker, a relative, or someone in your circle that you think would be good for me to interview next. I would love to get your thoughts on that or if you have to think a little bit and tell me offline, that’s cool too but I figured I’d throw it at you and ask.

That’s a great question. I have to think a bit about that. I can think of a dozen folks who would be fantastic. I’d love to give almost an ordered list.

That would be great. Brainstorm some ideas and you shoot me an email and we’ll see what we can do to get them on the show. TJ, thank you so much for your time and your energy. I know you’re super busy. You were kind enough to make the time and spend it with me on this show. I truly think my readers will appreciate a lot of your comments and thoughts around these issues. Truly, I appreciate you being here.

Fantastic. It’s been an honor. I appreciate the opportunity to do that and am always happy to connect and talk anytime.

I appreciate it. We’ll talk soon.

Thank you.

 

Important Links

 

About TJ Mathieson

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | TJ Mathieson | Youth Sports PressureTJ Mathieson, founder of Missioneer, a defense and mission architecture firm helping organizations solve some of the world’s most complex aerospace, space, and national security challenges. Before launching Missioneer, TJ spent more than 20 years leading mission integration and systems engineering efforts, including serving as Chief Mission Architect at Northrop Grumman.

Beyond his career in engineering, TJ is a former NCAA Division I hockey player at the University of Notre Dame, a USA Cycling National Champion, youth hockey coach, licensed pilot, and passionate mentor. His unique perspective on leadership, teamwork, resilience, and high performance—both on and off the ice—makes him an incredible guest for today’s conversation.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Jaimie Lusk | Trauma Recovery

From Combat To Healing: Trauma Recovery With Dr. Jaimie Lusk

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Jaimie Lusk | Trauma Recovery

 

Life’s biggest hurdles often leave us feeling stuck, but understanding the path to trauma recovery can unlock profound personal transformation. In this insightful episode, board-certified clinical psychologist Dr. Jaimie Lusk joins the conversation to explore how we can break out of avoidance loops and build true mental resilience. Drawing from her experience as a US Marine Corps Combat Veteran and VA PTSD clinician, Dr. Lusk shares powerful insights on navigating complex grief, moral injury, and life transitions. Discover why struggle is a normal part of the human condition and how embracing vulnerability can lead to wisdom. Tune in to learn practical strategies for cultivating resilience and accepting support when facing life’s unexpected setbacks.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

From Combat To Healing: Trauma Recovery With Dr. Jaimie Lusk

Understanding Trauma Avoidance Loops

We are here to talk about all things mental health and wellness. We are welcoming Dr. Jaimie Lusk.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Jaimie Lusk | Trauma Recovery

 

Jaimie, thank you for being here.

I’m excited to talk. We do different things in the field, but there ends up being a lot of overlap.

No doubt. For my audience, Dr. Lusk is a board-certified clinical psychologist and also a United States Marine Corps Combat Veteran. She has fifteen years of experience as a VA PTSD clinician and is a national and international consultant and trainer on moral injury interventions. Thank you for your service. Dr. Lusk specializes in guiding high-performing and sometimes reluctant clients through trauma, moral injury, and complex grief. Her approach blends evidence-based therapies with creative imagination and spiritual exploration, making therapy an adventurous, deeply relational process.

In her previous chapter, Dr. Lusk taught at a high school and a middle school. She has a great affinity for teenagers who are the development and research wing of the human race. Dr. Lusk is known for her direct, playful, and fearless style, helping clients and organizations unlock transformation and even the most challenging physical terrain. Dr. Lusk, welcome. Thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me.

From our little discussion thus far, I’m feeling a good interview coming. I feel like your work is awesome and interesting. 1) I want to learn more about it. 2) I want to touch on some meaty topics from one therapist to another, so that our parents and young adults that are tuning in can benefit from it. Maybe a good place to start is telling us a little bit more about what you do on a day-to-day.

I’ve worked in the VA system for the last couple of years. I’ve also had a private practice where I get to do some of the same work. My focus is helping people who experience traumatic events and find themselves stuck. There are a lot of ways to get stuck after trauma. Every diagnosis could be related to getting stuck after trauma. You and I talked about how, whether it’s anxiety, depression, PTSD, moral injury, or substance abuse, something happens, and it’s overwhelming.

Every diagnosis could be related to getting stuck after trauma. Something happens, it's overwhelming, and we try to escape or avoid it. That becomes the problem. Share on X

We feel a lot of stuff and maybe judge that feeling. We judge it like, “I’m a sucker or something’s wrong with me or I can’t handle this. This is too much or this is not fair. Why me? I’m a loser kid.” Whatever we do, we judge it, and then we try to escape or avoid it. That becomes the problem. Whether it’s depression and we get stuck in this loop of maybe being sedentary, not doing the things we love, avoiding people, and isolating, that then backfires and gets us even more stuck.

With PTSD, a horrible thing happened. I’m avoiding that. I’m avoiding thinking about that and reminders of that at all costs. My life gets smaller. In fact, that traumatic event gets bigger. Substance abuse is similar. I have a craving. I have a desire to change my state. Maybe I judge the crap out of that. I’m like, “I can’t handle this. This craving is too much. Something’s wrong with me.” The best way to escape or avoid it is to take more substances, so now I’m in that loop. It doesn’t matter what our diagnosis is. We get stuck in this loop. Both of our job markets are to help people break out of that loop.

No doubt. You got me thinking when you said that. I’ve been knee-deep in marketing to parents. What we do on our end for you, I heard, is we work with students virtually all over the country in college. An area of specialty of ours has become this transition from high school to college. Often, parents will say things to me online like, “My kid is fine now. Why would they need support when they go to college?”

I try to quickly explain to people all of the newness that comes their way. Kids can find themselves behind in a hole in many ways for the first time within a week. It doesn’t take long in college because of all of those things. It made me think of what you were saying. For young adults, there’s an underestimation that goes along with some of these things.

Whether it be an acute event or a slow drop for a young person, these are things that I find, and I’m sure you do as well, as a therapist, that there’s a critical point at which they’re going to be willing to get support and a point where they’re very unwilling to get support. We’ll get into that more later. I’m curious because you and I see that so much, I’m sure, with the people that we work with. Not just young people, but certainly older adults as well.

Navigating Unexpected Setbacks And Accepting Care

I’ve been humbled a bit. You can see this nice thing on my forehead. I got hit by a car on my bicycle. I’m not used to being the patient, as you can imagine. I had a particularly angsty night where I was feeling angry about the ways people were trying to care for me. I have a wonderful partner. I was like, “I am nothing like my dad.” He said, “That’s an interesting statement. I wonder if it’d be helpful to journal on that and reflect on that.”

When did this happen?

Not long ago. You’re going to have setbacks. As a young person, maybe you’ll get hit by a car on your bicycle, but also, maybe you’ll walk into a room and feel extremely insecure. It doesn’t matter who you are or how old you are when you walk into that room and don’t necessarily have belonging yet. Your mind immediately fills in the blanks. “I’m not like these people because blank. These people would never accept me if they knew blank. I can’t fit in here because blank.”

Our minds are meaning-making machines. They can fill in those blanks easily. We’re going to have these setbacks. If our mind hasn’t encountered the challenge yet, it won’t have the tools to navigate it. One definition of trauma I like is that the unthinkable occurs. Our worldview cannot yet contain this event. Trauma is the unthinkable. Young people going to college are going to have moments where the unthinkable occurs. How do we have the tools to stretch our worldview and our capacity to handle this new event?

Luckily, since we do this for a living, when I got in this bike wreck and I’m dealing with all this irritability, I have some tools to think about my thinking and to work through any barriers that are keeping me from getting support. One of them that night when I was angry was reminding myself, “You can accept care. No human on the planet is going to give you perfect care. These people are trying to care about you. The way they’re trying to care about you isn’t perfect, but that’s what they got, so take it because you need it.”

When we first talked, I knew there was something about our conversation. I was also hit by a car in 2010.

On a bicycle?

Yes. I’ve been through it as well and the trauma associated with it and all of that. Number one, I hope you heal up well. I’m wishing you comfort certainly through that. My point is that with some vulnerability comes some connection. You’re 100% right. I love what you said. Letting people care for you is hard sometimes, especially for caregivers. One thing that I found when I went through the trauma that I saw across the board is that we all need it from time to time.

Social Media And The Illusion Of Struggle-Free Living

If you haven’t been there, eventually, you will. We all need care. That’s what makes the world go around. I appreciate you sharing that. I want to pivot to a topic, social media, for a minute. I don’t know if I’ve done an interview where social media hasn’t come up. It’s such a big part of our world. For young people in particular, when you were talking about some of your work with young people, you had referenced working in schools before the tech got to where it is.

Nowadays, kids and adults are holding phones that are extremely powerful. We’re connected to every little bit of information that comes into our world, real or imagined. It is a little bit of both. The question I developed, and I’m curious about your thoughts on, is in terms of social media, do you think social media has convinced young people that struggle is evidence that something’s wrong with them rather than a normal part of being human? What are your thoughts?

I love Kristin Neff’s model of compassion. What she says is that it has three parts. You’ve got to notice your suffering, you’ve got to notice it’s human, and then you’ve got to do what you can to relieve it. The trap here is that social media that notices its human part, it convinces you it’s not human to struggle. Your mind is going to go 1 of 2 places. It is either, “I suck. Something’s wrong with me or it’s not fair. Why me?” It is that pity story that you’re uniquely set up, cheated, or uniquely at the mercy of these forces. Either way is a trap. The self-pity or the shame. Compassion says, “This is human.”

The trap of social media is it convinces you that it's not human to struggle. Share on X

Our brains, in some ways, did better when we were in little tribes, and we had 12 to 100 people to compare ourselves to. We could navigate that because we saw them live their lives. It’s not like social media where we see, “That person has a perfect life. They’re beautiful and smart. They’re having a lot of fun. They always seem connected.” You’d know this person in your tribe was full of crap if they were telling you that story. You can see their life. You can see how their marriage is and their kids. You’d be like, “That person doesn’t see themselves accurately,” or they’re selling something we don’t buy.

On social media, you don’t get that data. You don’t know who this person is. You don’t see them live their life. We’re getting all this data that we can have a life that’s not possible. The existentialists say things like, “You’re going to die. You’re going to have sickness. You’re going to have fewer choices than you think you do. You’re going to face a meaninglessness and difficulty finding meaning. You’re going to feel alone.” Social media isn’t telling us those things.

That’s for sure. To simplify it, it tricks us. Many kids lead into a conversation I have often that first month of college where kids are like, “Am I the only one who struggled?” Not only are kids going to college and they’re presented with all this newness, but then they’re looking at social media and are like, “Hold on a second. All of my friends are integrating perfectly. What’s wrong with me?”

That can make things much worse for kids. For students, it is important to listen to Jaimie’s words here around this concept. It will get us thinking on an adult level that everybody goes on vacation every week and get us on a young adult level that everybody is happy all the time. The harsh reality is we know that’s not true.

I like what you said, too. Earlier, we were chatting a little bit about the difference between achievement versus wisdom. A lot of students have achieved to get to college. That achievement got them there. I’m focused on this a bit when we’re talking. What happens when the typical kid who’s getting As and Bs in high school goes to college, and they struggle sometimes for the first time ever?

Hitting Limits: Transitioning From Achievement To Wisdom

If they’re anything like me, they take a Calculus exam. I got a seventeen on my first Calculus exam. I’ll admit it. I was not a long-term math person. That was not my thing. To me, there’s a struggle that can happen for some of those college students. They have to take a look at the difference between achievement and wisdom. I’m curious about your thoughts on how you see that going for a young person.

We all hit those limits. I was a Math major. My limit was in partial differential equations. I didn’t get it. I didn’t understand what the point of them was. I still don’t. I don’t think I learned anything that whole class. It was over my head. It doesn’t matter how smart and talented you are. You’re going to hit a limit. I work with people who didn’t hit their limit until sometimes very late.

They were Special Forces, and they went out and did all these special things. At some point, your body and mind can’t do what it used to do. I often am working with people who didn’t hit their limits until later. That’s almost trickier. Somebody once told me, “You’re either winning or learning.” That’s what it is for us humans. If you’re hitting limits early in college or high school, it’s a skill that you’re going to take with you the rest of your life.

I have seen people who didn’t learn that skill coming into my office in their 40s and 50s. They are not only struggling, but not keeping all the balls in the air in a way that’s terrifying. I don’t have a vision for that second half of life where we only get to get better at compassion and wisdom. Our bodies and our minds are not going to cooperate with other goals. If you’re hitting those limits early, it’s a great time to learn that skill.

That’s a great reframe and something we all need to do. As we get older, we have no choice. That’s where we’re headed. I like that a lot. One thing to take away, for young adults tuning in, is that a lot of the lessons that you’re hearing about and maybe have experienced both in high school, college, and beyond are life lessons that lay the track for adulthood. You may not see it right now. You may not see the entire picture, but those lessons can be hugely beneficial down the road, so embrace them. Embrace them and see the positives in them because they’re there. No doubt about it.

I’m sure this is true for most people who work with college kids. I’ve never seen a kid go to college for four years and have a perfectly smooth path without any complications or challenges. Most of the time, kids have a challenge the first week they’re there. Those challenges are oftentimes filled with growth opportunities.

I’m curious about something else. You had mentioned something I talk about all the time. I’m curious about your thoughts on this, mentors. Parents will send their kids to school. Whether it’s high school or college, I don’t think it’s a surprise to most parents that kids are around other adults, whether it be teachers, professors, trainers, therapists, coaches, or whomever. Even RAs and RDs. There are lots of opportunities for mentors in the kids’ world. How do you see mentorship with young adults? I’m curious about your viewpoint on that topic.

The Vital Role Of Mentors For Young Adults

Parents have the unfortunate position of having poured their heart and soul into raising this kid, and they get to a certain age and their friends are cooler, their friends’ parents are cooler, their teachers are cooler, and their coaches are cooler. Everything’s cooler than their parents. That is a developmental stage that’s so important for humans that we need other versions of adults. We crave other versions of adults because that’s developmentally what we need. I could take a chapter out of some of our developmental models where this is how it is.

We all hope that our kids find good peers and role models. They’re taking in data about who they want to be and who they’re going to be. We said that they’re the research and development of the human race, so they’ve got to try on a lot of things to figure out what’s going to work for these new problems that are emerging in the world. They’re the ones that are going to have to fix them, not us. I only have solutions for the problems that I encountered in my life. They have new problems. I can’t say what they’re going to do with those problems and what the solutions are going to be. It’s exciting to see how young people do that thing.

Young people are the research and development wing of the human race. They have to try on a lot of things to figure out what works. Share on X

I agree. I find myself often saying to students, “You’re going to go to this place called college. You’ve got 2 or 3 people there that are going to be meaningful. You haven’t met them yet.” To me, that’s exciting. Those are people that can steer you in a certain direction and guide your journey. You said an important word, and I don’t want to jump over it, which is willing. You are willing to meet with somebody or willing to advocate or go out of your way to connect with those people.

That word is extremely important because they’re going to come in contact with all of these individuals in their lifetime, whether it’s college or beyond. They don’t necessarily know which of them are going to be super impactful, but they’re going to have a few. Most adults our age, you can ask them and say, “Who are the impactful individuals that you met?” Usually, people have a couple of people on their list. Does anyone come to mind for you when I say that?

I had this mentor. He died of Parkinson’s. He, other than my parents, was the most important person in my life. The way he went through the world, he had a lot of wisdom and a lot of compassion. He had this funny way of finding humor in most situations. There was a time in my early twenties when I had suicidal ideation, and he said, “Good. A part of you needs to die.” I’m like, “What?”

I don’t know that I would ever say that to somebody, but it shook me up in a good way. I was like, “I don’t need to die. A part of me could die. A story could die. My idea of seeing the world could die. I don’t have to die.” It was a pivotal point in my life. I can’t say if I would have gotten to the point where I attempted suicide, but I can say that he helped me pivot my worldview significantly. I am grateful for that.

Now that I’m in my late 40s, what I would want to say to young people is if you think an adult is scary, doesn’t like you, or doesn’t care about you, it’s probably because they’re insecure. Now that I’m in my late 40s, I’m like, “Young person, I hope you don’t think I’m weird, old, and not cool.” It’s interesting being in this 40s body knowing that a young person might be intimidated by me, but I’m intimidated by you, too.

If you think an adult is scary, doesn't like you, or doesn't care about you, it's probably because they're insecure. Share on X

No doubt. That is very well said. That’s important for young adults to know. The honest truth is when a person, whether it be the young adult or the older adult, takes that risk to get to know them, they find out, “This is a human being. This person may have some wisdom, experience, and knowledge that can help, but at the very least, maybe they’ll be supportive and kind. Take the risk. That’s an important tip for students to know.

I’ve had my mentors as well. One of them in particular, I met because I did not like communication sciences. I went to see my advisor, who was a family therapist. I thought it’d be a twenty-minute conversation. It was a three-hour conversation. The rest is history. It turned me into what I do now. I’m super thankful for her guidance.

You never know when those mentors pop up and how impactful they could be. It requires a little bit of give and take, a little bit of vulnerability, and a little bit of acceptance. Those individuals’ words and their guidance can be life-changing in many ways. It is certainly cool to hear about one of your mentors as well. That’s awesome.

Building Multi-Dimensional Resilience In Mind, Body, And Behavior

I’m curious to ask you about another one of my favorite words, which is resilience. Resilience is one of those things that I feel like some people seem to have a lot of and some people seem to not have a lot of. How do you see resilience in others? I know it’s a very broad, general question, but how do you see resilience coming out in some of your patients?

The way I think about resilience is we’ve got these little hearts, and they’ve got two chambers for receiving and two chambers for giving. If we have these hearts working well in a nice flow state, we are receiving as much as we are giving, and then we are patching up any holes. I think about resilience as that tank of vitality. Are we able to fill it up? Are we able to direct our energy where we want it to go? Are we able to patch up any holes? To the extent we’re doing that, we’re resilient. It never stops our need to learn new skills to keep growing in resilience.

That’s a keyword. Growing. When I talk to some younger people, there’s an odd expectation of, “I won’t be challenged in life.” When they do get challenged, because we all get challenged in life, it takes them by surprise. That concept of like, “I got to claw my way back from this thing,” requires some of what you’re talking about in that resilience piece for kids. I agree with you. It’s something that’s worked on and something that’s worked at.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Jaimie Lusk | Trauma Recovery

 

It’s something that you probably need to accept and realize we’re going to have to pull our resilience card periodically and make our way back from a challenge. Whether it be a bike accident as you and I have been through or any other much smaller challenge that people endure. It’s pretty uncommon that a person is simply never challenged and never needs to go through that process. I like what you said with the chambers. That makes a lot of sense to me. It encourages a person to recognize that there are two sides to it. There’s the giving and the receiving. I like that a lot.

I also work with people who are either pro endurance athletes or former endurance athletes. They often have a ton of physical resilience. In other words, they can handle extreme amounts of pain in their bodies, but they may not always have resilience in their thinking. A lot of times, looking at different facets of resilience can be helpful. I think of it as there’s resilient thinking, there’s resilience in terms of our body, and then there are resilient behaviors. How do we make sure this profile of resilience is working for you?

You and I both go down the rabbit hole of growth mindset and some of the ways that we can think about our thinking and choose mindsets that work for us. That’s resilient thinking. Resilient behaviors mean you’re choosing the things that work long-term for you and line up with your values rather than choosing the thing that might reduce your pain in the moment but is going to cost you long-term.

That’s huge with the onset of recreational marijuana use but it’s a whole other topic. I see that happening so much in young individuals where they’re going for that short-term fix rather than the actual solution. I’m a big fan of exercise. I feel like other than pulling a muscle, there’s not a lot of downsides to exercise. You get an actual solution from it versus something that gives you a whole bunch of side effects. Your point around how an individual, whether an older adult or a younger adult, deals with it is excellent.

It’s funny that you say that about pro athletes. You’re the 3rd or 4th individual that I’ve interviewed that’s worked with very high-level athletes that have said the exact same thing. I’m thinking of one in particular who worked with pro baseball players. He was saying their endurance ability was off the charts, but many of them had to work hard at creating more mental resilience. If you’re a pitcher, for example, what do you do when you falter a little bit? How does a person come back from that?

Those behaviors are easily translatable to everyday life. It sounds like some of the work that you do crosses over with some of the work that I do as well, which is interesting. I’m curious. For those that maybe don’t understand PTSD and what it encompasses, you had mentioned at one point PTSD being a disorder of avoidance. Tell me more about that.

Unpacking PTSD As A Disorder Of Avoidance

You can’t get a diagnosis of PTSD right after the trauma because we expect after trauma, you’re going to have certain symptoms. We expect that after a horrible thing or the unthinkable occurs where your life was in danger, your body integrity was threatened, or you witnessed something where somebody’s life or body integrity was threatened, you are going to have upsetting symptoms. Your body is going to replay that scene over and over in your mind.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Jaimie Lusk | Trauma Recovery

 

You’re going to feel strong emotions like fear, anger, horror, guilt, and shame. You’re going to have thoughts that are confusing and sticky. You’re going to have hyperarousal. That means hypervigilance, irritability, trouble sleeping, and startle response. We expect that after a trauma. In the diagnosis of PTSD, you have to be a month out of the trauma before you can even get the diagnosis. If that didn’t go away over time, something got stuck.

What we know from research is that what happens is people start to avoid thinking about, talking about, exploring, and feeling anything about that trauma, and that ends up keeping those symptoms firmly in place. In avoiding that event, and you can avoid it in many ways, you could avoid by overworking, by distraction, by drugs and alcohol, or by isolating. We have 10,000 ways to avoid. That keeps those symptoms in place, which are those difficult feelings, difficult thoughts, re-experiencing symptoms, and hyper-arousal symptoms. People are stuck in this loop.

I do two types of treatment that are evidence-based trauma-focused treatments. Truly, the point of both of them is to slowly, carefully, and systematically approach the thing you’ve been avoiding. I’ve done this treatment with thousands of veterans. Seventy percent of them have significant improvement. PTSD is something that many people recover from. One thing that’s interesting that goes into your life is that the greatest predictor of combat PTSD is childhood trauma. Whether or not you get stuck in that loop of avoidance depends on the skills that you developed early on to manage things that happened as a kid.

I will say one more thing. Two populations that are at risk for PTSD later on are people who had a very difficult life with tons of difficult events that never were able to get the support, and people who had such an easy and sheltered life that they never learned how to deal with hard things. Both of those groups are at risk. For these young people that you work with who are having hard things happen, and they’re having to work through them, they are at the least risk potentially for developing PTSD later on because they’re learning those skills that are going to help them not get stuck in that avoidance loop.

That is a great way of looking at it. I appreciate you breaking that down. It’s a complex topic a lot of people don’t know about, and a lot of people associate only with veterans and individuals that have been in the Military. I appreciate you breaking that down. It makes more sense to me. I’m hoping it makes more sense to my audience as well.

I want to say one thing. Even with horrible combat traumas, only about 30% of people develop PTSD. With sexual trauma and interpersonal trauma, it’s closer to 70%. With men, it’s closer to 90%. It is interpersonal trauma that puts us at the greatest risk of PTSD. We have statistics that show people in college are as likely to have sexual trauma as somebody in the Military.

Truly, it’s not just people in the Military who experience interpersonal trauma, especially sexual violation. That’s to say that a lot of people come to me with sexual trauma and say, “I didn’t have combat. They didn’t try to kill me.” Yet, we know there’s greater risk when those interpersonal boundaries have been violated in that way.

Facing Uncomfortable Conversations: Interpersonal Trauma And Suicide Prevention

I feel like that’s such a hard conversation for some parents to have, but it’s one that I push parents on. I say, “If your kid is going away to school, this is a known entity that does happen way too often. You have to have these conversations.” Information is powerful, but after the fact, it’s a little too late. It’s important to push yourself.

You and I talk about lots of different things on a regular basis, so we’re pretty comfortable. Not every parent is. If they’re not comfortable, find somebody who might be to have that conversation with your student before they go to college. It’s a very real thing that happens on college campuses way too often and can cause some real enduring trauma and difficulty for your student.

I’m not a parent, and I do feel like that’s a hard job. It’s harder than mine, for sure. One thing we know in suicide research is that a very important question to ask is, “Are you thinking of killing yourself?” I was talking to a parent, and they said, “I could never ask that.” I love this parent. They’re a good parent. I felt a lot of compassion for them, but at the same time, I said, “You have to ask it. Do not ask it like you want to ask it, like, ‘You’re not thinking of killing yourself, are you?’ Do not have that conversation. It is, ‘Are you thinking of killing yourself?’ You need to ask that question.” This parent specifically did.

Whether or not you get stuck in a loop of avoidance depends on the skills that you developed early on to manage hard things. Share on X

It’s a tough one. I am a parent. It is the hardest job I’ve ever had. Around that topic, I always say to parents that I’ve been to funerals of kids who have completed, which is way harder than asking that question. Not even close. Ask the question. It’s uncomfortable, but these are things that can be lifesaving for young people.

It’s not about, “Do I feel comfortable doing it?” It’s about, “My kid needs it.” We do lots of those things. I appreciate it. You have covered so much in our brief period of time. I appreciate all of your comments and your thoughts around the range of topics we talked about, from social media to wellness to mental health.

I’m hoping that there are a lot of takeaways for my audience. I appreciate you taking the time and putting the energy into our interview. One last question for you. The way I have this show set up is I have each of my guests nominate a friend, a coworker, or a relative. Maybe you have somebody in mind who you think might be good for me to interview next. Any thoughts? Anyone come to mind?

One of my favorite friends who’s a high school History teacher. He’s had me come and talk to some of his classes. He’s a great history teacher, but he’s also an incredible community builder. He gets what it takes to create community. He’s the reason I have a lot of my friends. He also is a community builder for young people. I would love to have you guys talk about his instincts around that and the ways that he consistently connects people to themselves and other people. His name is Patty Croasdaile. I’ll get you in touch.

I appreciate it. I have to tell you that I love your vibe. I love your thoughts. I love what you do. I hope we can stay in touch. Honestly, I think you are a valuable resource in our field. Thank you so much for your time, your energy, and all of your thoughts. I appreciate it.

I’m always willing to consult for free as a public service. If you feel like something is important for you to understand better, or you need to get connected to resources that are specific to PTSD and moral injury, feel free to email me or find me on my website. I am available.

I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Thank you.

Take care. Bye.

 

Important Links

 

About Dr. Jaimie Lusk

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Jaimie Lusk | Trauma RecoveryDr. Jaimie Lusk is a board-certified clinical psychologist, is a USMC combat Veteran 15 years of experience as a VA PTSD clinician and a national/international consultant and trainer on Moral Injury interventions, Dr. Lusk specializes in guiding high-performing and sometimes reluctant clients through trauma, moral injury, and complex grief.

Her approach blends evidence-based therapies with creative imagination and spiritual exploration, making therapy an adventurous, deeply relational process. In a previous chapter of life, Dr. Lusk taught at the high school and middle school level, and has great affinity for teenagers who are the “research and development wing” of the human race.

Dr. Lusk is known for her direct, playful, and fearless style—helping clients and organizations unlock transformation in even the most challenging psychological terrain.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Mariela Podolski | Social Media Mental Health

How Social Media Impacts Teen Mental Health With Dr. Mariela Podolski

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Mariela Podolski | Social Media Mental Health

 

Social media mental health has become one of the most pressing challenges facing teens and parents today. On this episode of Normalize It Forward, host Marc Lehman welcomes back pediatric psychiatrist Dr. Mariela Podolski to unpack how digital platforms influence adolescent brain development and emotional wellness. Excessive screen time can double the risk of depression and anxiety in young adults who lack fully developed executive functioning skills. Dr. Mariela Podolski shares concrete strategies for establishing family digital contracts, delaying smartphone access, and creating screen-free household routines. By prioritizing real-world social interaction and delayed gratification, parents can protect their children from digital burnout. Listen in to discover actionable tools for building healthier relationships with technology in your home.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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How Social Media Impacts Teen Mental Health With Dr. Mariela Podolski

Welcome back to the show. I’m really excited about this show. We have a returning guest for the first time in the history of our show, who had a first conversation with us already, resonating very deeply with our audiences. Joining us is Dr. Mariela Podolski. Dr. P, as a lot of people know her. Welcome. How are you?

Thank you, Marc. I’m so excited to be back. It’s fantastic.

When Dr. P was last on our show, we had a fascinating discussion about mental health, and the response was great. We heard from so many people who appreciated our practical advice, insights, and perspectives that we knew we had to invite her back. This time we’re tackling an important topic that both she and I hear about a lot in our offices. That is social media. Every aspect of our lives seems to be touched by social media on a pretty regular basis. We’ll explore how it influences mental health, relationships, self-esteem, and the way we see ourselves and each other. We’ll talk about what parents, students, and all of us can do to build a healthier relationship with the digital world. Dr. P, welcome back. Big topic, social media. We talk about it all the time.

Thank you so much, Marc. Thank you for having me. Social media, where do we even start?

Maybe we’ll start with a timeline. I have not looked it up recently. I remember, certainly, not long ago, when social media did not dictate so much in our world. I feel like even ten years ago, it was vastly different from what it is now. Timelines are important for us, even as parents and parents that we talk to, because so much of our suggestions and what we put out there needs to be updated as a result of social media constantly updating. New things are being developed pretty much every week.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Mariela Podolski | Social Media Mental Health

 

The Portability Of Modern Social Media

Totally. That’s a phenomenal starting point because history tells us that when we look back, we can certainly assess and compare with the present, how things are going. What we know of social media, even though it was developed earlier in the 2000s, if you remember, and the initial stage of Facebook and whatnot and other platforms, it was not until 2010-ish when the smartphones came out. The apps came to be in our hands when things truly started to change. One can make the argument that social media, in and of itself, on the computer is a different animal than social media at the tip of your fingers 24/7.

That’s a really powerful statement. Tell me what you mean by that, because I could interpret it. I really want to hear what your thoughts are.

We can talk about the pros and the dangers of social media. There are always two sides of the coin. The difficulty, particularly for teenagers, and I would say this is true for everybody, adults as well, at least the adults that come to see us. There are many people in the world who do not struggle. Everybody who comes to see you or me is struggling. For the adults as well. Mostly, for teenagers is the portability of social media that accompanies them wherever they are.

It’s almost like on the computer, if you were to go into your Instagram or TikTok or whatever, you can do it for a period of time. You have to move from the computer at some point. You go out and about, and you’re not on the computer. With the phone, like, even people are driving, checking their social media accounts. It’s relentless, it’s constant. Constant, and that portability, the immediate access at the tip of your fingers, I think, is the most important factor in changing the way that we behave around social media.

I agree. Not just the constant access or us accessing it, but also the images that are being thrown at us and how often, let’s say, a young person is on them. You and I were swapping stories a few weeks ago, and we talked about some kids who can be on them for upwards of 40 or 50 hours a week. If you think about, like, what does that equate to? How many images from an average swipe? How many images is that in any given week? That’s a lot of information thrown at us.

For the public that is tuning in to us, as a disclaimer, we should say Marc and I do share a lot of patients. We have to share some of the stories about our patients. You would think that it’s an uncommon occurrence that this cannot be reality. Marc, every week without fail in my office, I have a parent or a kid who is concerned about social media use, or they may not even be concerned. I’m the one bringing it up.

When we look at their screen time, because I look at screen time as part of my therapeutic intervention, their social media use is 40 to 45 hours a week. How can we build mental health when a kid is on an app that is providing immediate gratification 45 hours a week? We have to stop normalizing that. I’ll say it until I turn blue right in the face. We have to stop pretending this is the one.

You’re 100% right. The simple answer to that is management. I was just thinking about that timeframe. If a kid were playing with a yo-yo, I do not know, like for 45 hours a week, a parent would be like, “That kid is really obsessed with his yo-yo.” Old school reference, yo-yo. I do not know. You’re right, there’s a normalization that goes on. There’s also an awareness issue. When a parent looks up, as you and I have done so many times with kids, their phone usage on their, let’s call it an iPhone, and they see a number, and they’re like, “My kid is averaging eight hours a day.” How many times have you had a parent go, “I had no idea it was that much?”

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Mariela Podolski | Social Media Mental Health

 

A lot. That is in part why I incorporated that part into my assessments and treatment plans, doing it as part of the office visit. Recently, some pediatricians have started including this in their assessments, which is great. The thing is, we have been under the impression, whether that was on purpose or not on purpose from these big companies, to make us think that you set the app for the age group, like thirteen or whatever it is, and that things would be fine because it’s for that age group. What we did not know as parents, and I speak as a parent here too, is that the addictive quality of these apps really messes up with teenagers more than with adults. There is a good biological reason for that, Marc. I do not know if we’ve talked about this. I find it fascinating if you do not mind.

No, please. I want to hear about it.

This is like an absolutely fascinating piece of why teenagers are different from adults. We all know, or not, we all know that in adolescents, the limbic system is hyperactive. Rewards feel a lot more satisfying than in adults. That implies risk. Taking risks is important. If you think from a biological perspective, when you see the little cubs and the lioness mama, they’re out and playing, and the mom has to come and get them and be like, “No,” they are right. We are supposed to be taking risks because that’s what keeps us going in the long run. It’s going to help us find food, and it’s going to help us find better shelter and better things we have to explore and take.

Recognizing The Brain Imbalance In Teens

That happens in adolescents and humans. They are taking risks constantly. We talk about an adolescent taking risks. That’s one part. The other part is that executive function in our frontal lobe is not developed yet. With good reason and intent, which is we do not want to be warned about the risks of exploring because if we’re warned, then we will not do it, and our species would not survive. This imbalance is on purpose. Big limbic system reward, very limited executive functioning. Over time, as we grow older, those balance out.

Can I jump in for one sec? I just want to translate something from my audience, because you’re onto something really important, and I get it. I’m guessing some people will not. Limbic system, all feeling-based. That’s why kids love to do things that feel exhilarating. Executive functioning is deciding risk. That’s not fully developed. That’s why kids in the summer say, “Let’s go cliff jumping.” They’re not thinking about what’s underneath them.

Thank you for the clarification. Please, we can take it slow. That is what’s happening in adolescence, and that’s 100% normal. The other thing that also happens in adolescence is that kids want to separate from their parents. That is also the norm. In Erik Erikson’s stages of life. This is exactly what an adolescent needs to be doing. Individuate from parents, become their own person, and associate with their peer group. They fit in with their peer group away from their parents and create their own identity.

As painful as that is for us parents, it’s a healthy part of development that we need to love to happen. Put those two together. Risk-taking, separating from parents, connecting with peers, now 24/7 at the tip of your fingers. They’re “connecting” with peers. I do not consider it connecting, because it’s not the same as in-person connecting. The biology of this behavior is there. They are connecting with peers on their phones, and their risk-taking part is going to websites, doing things that are really not appropriate for teachers.

The executive function, being underdeveloped or less developed, should we say, prevents them from understanding the risks and consequences of being on the screen for hours and hours a day on their own. They cannot understand that on their own. They just will not. When you put all of that together, I tell parents the following. These apps are designed specifically to capture your attention. Adults and kids. Kids do not have executive functioning to tell them this is wrong. As parents, expecting teenagers to be able to manage their screen time on their own is like throwing a toddler into a pool and asking them to swim. It’s just not going to happen.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Mariela Podolski | Social Media Mental Health

 

It’s a great way of saying it. You answered a very tough question, which is: How does social media impact mental health? Let’s take it like, let me complete the conversation here, because I think some parents are hearing this and they’re going, “In my role, how do I possibly manage that? That’s an impossible task for a parent who cannot manage 50 hours a week of social media time.” Also, in that question is, how do I limit the impact on my child’s mental health? Big questions. Any thoughts?

The Direct Link Between Screen Time And Anxiety

Let’s start by saying the first part is what the data is. That’s an important part. The data is very clear. More than three hours of social media per day, which, by definition, is 90% of my patients. More than three hours doubles the risk of depression and anxiety.

That alone is pretty startling, I’m sure, for my audiences to hear. The rates are already pretty high. We’re talking about doubling those rates over three hours a day, which, as you said, I think most of my kiddos that I’m working with are three hours, at least, if not more.

When I am explaining this to my patients, I tell them that’s the data. Now, if you ask my opinion, which is not scientifically based, I guess it’s that three hours is excessive regardless.

A lot.

Think about three hours. That’s like any time from 3:00 to 6:00 PM, homework time, all gone into social media. That was one part of your question. What is the mental health aspect, and then how do parents manage this? I can tell you what I tell my patients. You can tell me too.

Tell me. I want to hear. I’ll share my thoughts. I promise.

The first one is delay, again, delay. What the Surgeon General came up with in 2023 is the age of sixteen for social media. We know in Australia, for instance, it is illegal under the age of sixteen. Whether they can really handle that or not. I do not know. People can lie about their age and all of that stuff. That’s what has been recommended from a higher level. To delay it until sixteen. If you choose as a parent to provide social media, two separate things. A phone for your child and social media. Those are linked but separate. Let me have the phone piece. Get this scenario a lot.

We’re thinking about giving little Susie a phone. What do we do? It goes linked into the delaying piece, as in, I also have to recognize, I do not know about you, Marc, when I was in 7th grade or in 6th grade, I spoke on the phone with my friends for hours a day. Hiding from my parents, of course. I did it. It goes back to that Eric Erikson stages of development in life. You want to connect with your peers. Biologically, it’s impossible not to.

I feel like, let’s face it, neighborhoods are not the same as they used to be. There aren’t any kids outside playing around. Kids have less face-to-face contact. They’re over-scheduled. That’s a completely different show. They’re over-scheduled in a million things. They do not have free time to just hang out with their friends. Communicating with friends is an important part of development that needs to happen, and texting their friends is a way the kids communicate now.

No doubt.

I would say, if you’re going to provide a phone to your child that has texting ability, that’s okay. I guess. Now let’s talk about the other parts of that smartphone. They can have a flip phone, and everything is okay. Let’s talk about the other parts of that smartphone. How are you going to manage Safari? How are you going to manage social media, and how are you going to manage the risks of the Internet, such as violence, pornography, etc. My recommendation is to create a contract before you give your child the phone.

Establishing Clear Digital Family Contracts

Do not give the phone out and expect that things are going to just happen naturally because, more likely than not, they will not. In the contract, I say things like, and I help parents create it in my office, or I offer some suggestions. One, make sure that you have access to the passcode at all times. The phone is your belonging and you lend it to your kid. Set the time. You cannot just expect them to manage this. Set the time and how much time? I do not know.

One hour to two hours a day, I think, is within reason and as a maximum. No phones in the bedroom at night. If they’re going to be in the bedroom because they are listening to the Tom app or any other type of white noise or whatever or music, then they have to be blocked at that time. Also, we can get into more specifics, like the content of the text messages. Sexting is a thing for young as 12, 13, and 14-year-olds. The words are not for the faint of heart.

Rebuilding Essential Real-World Social Skills

No, they’re definitely not. You’ve touched on a bunch. Let me interrupt for one sec. Communicating with friends, I just want to put it out there for parents to hear. Since the advent of smartphones, I have never in my office worked with kids so much on basic social skills. Picture me as a therapist, 25 years doing this, sitting with a 17, 18, or 19-year-old kid, telling them, and practicing role-playing with them. Here’s how to banter.

Smartphones changed everything by making social media accessible 24/7 right at our teenagers' fingertips. Share on X

Here’s how to have micro interactions. Here’s how to have conversations because kids are not doing that anymore. Many of our kids rise to college level, and they go off to these colleges with thousands of kids in person, and they have no idea how to interact with these kids. That alone, I see all the time because I see so many rising college kids. I just want parents to think a little bit about how the communication is shifted if everything is text, and we’re not doing this as much. I know you see that as well.

Absolutely, Marc. That’s why I think that the time limit has to be there. If we allow a kid to text their friends for one hour a day and make sure that they’re having adequate socialization in person, I think that’s a very good damage control. I do not think that’s like a big risk. I see this all the time. I see kids who have zero in-person interaction and are texting their friends constantly or talking through video game apps or consoles or whatever they do with no in-person interaction, and their social skills are suffering tremendously.

The other thing I give to families to really consider is if you’re under the impression that your 12, 13, 14 year old kid can manage this themselves, I would say it’s similar to letting them go out for Halloween, up a huge bag of candy, and then letting them keep that in their room. I can honestly say that when I was thirteen, I would eat the whole thing in a couple of nights and be super sick. I’m a kid, so I just like sugar. If your kid would do that, if your kid would not manage that one piece at a time, which, quite frankly, I do not know anyone who would, how do we expect them to manage this? This, to me, is way more powerful than sugar. It’s so impactful.

It hits the reward system the same way as sugar will. That’s true. It’s a very big, open hit. Marc, when you think about it, the people who use these apps knew it.

Of course they did.

They absolutely knew what was going to happen. They were designed to capture attention and keep you engaged in the app. It’s the same as gambling and those machines when you put a coin in. It’s very hard to break away from that habit because you always know that maybe the next time.

Of course, absolutely.

For our audiences, this is what’s happening with their phones. Maybe the next time they check, there will be a like or a comment. Maybe the next time they check, there is going to be a video they like. That’s what their brain is sensing. Maybe keep trying, keep trying. Breaking away from that biologically is incredibly difficult.

Super difficult. I would add to that, not only have they thought about it, but they have created safety nets, the companies that use safety nets to keep you in them. I have had kids say to me, “I am really sick of Snapchat, but I have all these streaks that I do not want to break.” I’m like, “What’s that?” They’re like, “I have been talking to my friend Mariela for 75 days in a row, and I cannot possibly break that streak.” I’m sitting going, “Why? What happens if you take a day off?” They’re like, “Well.” Companies are smart. They’re putting these things in because they want to keep kids in the game, and they want to keep kids continuing to use them even when kids maybe do not necessarily want to.

The infinite scrolling is another. That really changed the way that we used social media. Kids do not know this, but when it started. I was like, I do not know how long ago it was, but it was like twenty years ago, but then we used Facebook. It was not infinite scrolling. That’s right. That has also changed the dynamics. As the research shows, if you have a behavior that is on an interval schedule, that is very addictive. Whereas if you stop the behavior, like teenage talking, if you’re texting a girl that you like as a teenager, and she responds sometimes and sometimes not.

The kid is going to keep texting because she may respond. If all of a sudden she eventually stops responding, then that will be it. Behavior stops for audiences to understand that. It’s the same with the apps. We’re constantly reinforcing the behavior because it’s intermittent with the hits of dopamine. It’s impossible for them to manage, Marc. It really is. Audiences need to hear as parents. They cannot do it on their own. They have a big reward system. Remember, feelings are super activated, and executive functioning is very little, and all of their surroundings are designed for them to fail at this, at stopping themselves.

Let’s shift for a sec to the thing that parents probably really want to hear us talk about, which is how do we manage this? One of the real upsides I’ve seen in the last year or two is that schools have done parents a solid in that many schools, private and public, have put parameters and really told kids to put their phones away and really either lock them up or really taken a hard line, I think most schools are doing nowadays. Your kids have a full break. Many of them have a full break throughout the whole day, or it’s not constant in their hands. The question I always ask is, what happens from the time they get home until the time they go to bed? You’re up, Mariela. What do you think? What happens? What do you think we can do as parents?

Exceeding three hours of daily social media doubles the risk of teen depression and anxiety. Setting limits is essential. Share on X

Again, I know kids are smarter than most parents, like mine. I feel my kids outsmart me every day. That’s a general sensation for every parent nowadays. They can bypass a ton of things, but the first thing we have as parents is to set the limits. I’m going to refer to iPhones because that’s what might be used in our house. I don’t know Android, but I’m pretty sure it’s very similar.

You can set the screen time. You can say everything that you use cannot be more than 60 minutes, 90 minutes, or 120 minutes a day, with certain exceptions, and you put the exceptions that you want. That’s one. Again, that is simple. One thing I know. I’m going to throw my kids under the bus here, but my son is fourteen, and he has a phone. My daughter is eleven. She does not have a phone. Somehow they figured out between them, like I would approve more time for X thing.

I have to write code. They saw the reflection in my glasses. All of a sudden, I’m like, what is happening here? I caught on rather quickly. Now I make them turn around. They have to turn around, and I take my glasses off. My point is that kids are going to be sneaky because this is a big reward have dopamine-seeking behavior. Luckily, we got over that home, but do not share your code. I know it sounds so simple, Marc, but I cannot count how many times parents are like, but they bypass it. I’m like, “How?” They just put the code. I’m like, “Why does your kid know the code?”

Pick a code they do not know.

Modeling Healthy Device Habits As Parents

That’s really silly, but I think it’s important. Put a code that does not know and manage the screen time. The other thing that I think is important is the model. We as parents need to put our phones away. We are glued to these things. It may be that we use it for social media, it may be that we use it for work, it may be that we’re texting someone, but we need to model our own behavior with kids.

We cannot expect them to behave differently if we are not doing it. The other thing is, I think it’s really important to go back to the basics and have mealtimes together as a family. I know schedules are hectic and crazy, and everybody’s again over-scheduled, and that makes it really difficult. It’s fine if it’s only mom and son and dad and daughter, or it’s the four of them together, or the 5 or 6 or whatever number it is. It doesn’t matter, but we should be going back to having mealtime together, and mealtimes should always be screen-free.

Great suggestion.

Adults and kids. What else? The other part I would suggest very strongly is that phones are not used during academic time. There is a really cool research study. I’m not going to be able to give you all the data, but I’m going to just give you the summary. It’s like they put a group of people with kids, teenagers doing an academic thing, and they set the phone next to them. The other group had the phone in their backpack, and the other group had the phone outside the room. That doesn’t mean they were checking the phone or not checking the phone, just by the place of it next to them in their backpack or outside the room. Guess what the results were?

I’m assuming the ones in the hallway had a better ability to concentrate.

Just by removing it from close distance from you, just by that, attention improved. I would say, like, if academic work needs to be done, which is the truth for most of our kids, the phone needs to be out of the way. Remove it, put it in the kitchen, keep it with the parents, or block it during that time. It can be blocked. That’s another thing. The other part is that there are many solutions that, in a way, you can engage in with these apps that monitor screen time. Bar, Opal, Brick, to name some.

Do not receive any money from them, so I am not affiliated with them. I do think that they work, family. There are many, and you can monitor screen time and make sure that their usage is not very significant. The most important thing, if somebody is going to take one suggestion today, as a parent, you need to be involved. You need to grab a phone and look at their screen time and see not only how many hours, but what they are using.

Constant texting strips away essential face-to-face communication skills that young adults need when entering college and adulthood. Share on X

That’s a great takeaway. Awesome suggestions, by the way. Thank you so much for those. I really want to make sure my parents are hearing. To go back to something you said earlier, anxiety rates and depressive rates are already very high. You and I see them all the time in our office throughout the day, kids really struggling with lots of different things associated with them. This is a large part of them, and it’s not the only part, but it’s certainly a big chunk. A lot of parents will say to me, what’s the big deal? It’s just a phone. It’s just social media. There’s research on this.

It’s not stuff we’re going to go through or quote today, but you’re going to have to trust us or look into it yourself. There are direct links to usage of tech and social media that have an impact on mental health. I see the effects. You see the effects all the time, Mariela. That just brings us back to your last comment, which is that parents have to be involved.

There’s different ways to be involved like like brick, you and I have talked about sponge brick is a useful tool that literally you can have your kids click a an object and it bricks all of these pieces on their phone to be unusable until they unbrick it and you know, these things have been developed for parents use, for our ability so that we’re not having to run around and watch our kids 24/7 in what they’re using. It gives us a little bit more control. It gives us a little bit more say-so.

At these ages, I’d say specifically 12 to 20, like in that zone where they’re so impacted by this use. Mariela, you and I swap stories on a regular basis about this. Some families will come in, and their use, these kids’ use of social media is so excessive that we’re now having to pare it back one step at a time, because you cannot just take that away. That particular child will really have a hard time. Just know that if you’re a parent approaching 10, 11, and 12, and you’re thinking about tech, I love what you said before delay. Wait as long as you possibly can to give your kid that device, and just know that when you do, there are layers to it that have to be thought out. Really have to be thought out by a parent because, as beneficial as they can be, they’re super hazardous as well.

Totally. I do think, in terms of the phone, again, the phone itself is one thing. This phone plus social media is a different thing. I definitely think that parents’ involvement is the most important thing, knowing that a kid can also have a phone and not have social media apps. That is possible and completely doable. You can really decide, as I suggested, that every parent sets up their kid’s phone as part of their family plan. They have full access to this, and they can. The kids have to ask permission to download an app.

I like that. Let’s face it, I would say the majority of parents today who are parenting kids this age, when they were kids, none of this existed. This is the new modern parent who has to be thinking about this, and we’ve given lots of reasons today as to why and the impact on things. Again, I would say to parents, anxiety and depressive stuff aside, the social skills impact is startling to me. As a kid, I was working at 16, at 15, as many of us were. We were getting that constant training of interacting with the public and pleases and thank yous and how to do things that a boss has asked you to do.

Not only are kids not doing that as much nowadays, but the interaction, as you said, the interaction could be through video games or technology. It’s not direct. When kids are facing each other directly, it’s not even just peers. I had a kid say to me today that she’s terrified, that was the word she used, to go back and see a professor at school for office hours. That’s a pretty important thing to be able to do. The one thing that led her to use the word terrified was that you’re interacting with somebody. It’s this scary individual that I do not know how to interact with. To me, just realized that phone use does have an impact on our social skills.

A hundred percent, Marc. I’m going to jump to a different thing that is related. I have always thought that in a world of immediate gratification, including the social media constants forcing our kids to practice, delayed gratification is really important. It’s not going to come as naturally as it did to you or me when we were younger because everything is at the immediate click. Amazon is there. Whatever platform you used to shop online is there. You cannot find your shoes in your size. I’ll order them online or whatever it is. Everything is immediate.

I’m going to text a friend, and if they don’t respond immediately, there is this discomfort. I 100% encourage parents, at the same time, to set limits for their children or adolescents in terms of their phone use and social media use, and to put another layer by encouraging them to use their social skills and practice the lake out ratification. A really good way to do that is through sports. I know not every kid is sporty. It doesn’t have to be sports. It can be music. It can be a writing club. It can be anything that you have to work and learn the skills over and over and over to see the final.

You’re basically saying having some exposure to peers, like directly to human beings. We were talking about jobs. In some ways, it doesn’t matter where the exposure is, but it has to be live. It has to be.

That live exposure, but also allowing yourself to have to wait for the reward to come your way. Part of my language, but s***ing at something and having to work so you become better. If I do not like playing soccer, but if I had to go play soccer, it would be horrible the first few times. You build those skills, and eventually you’ll be maybe less bad. It will get there. The way that is linked to social media is that social media is a constant reward.

Cultivating Delayed Gratification Through Activities

We need to force our kids to do the opposite, which is to delay the reward as much as we can. Sports are really good for that. It doesn’t have to be competitive. It can be for fun. That’s not the point. Music, like playing instruments, because you have to really practice to get those skills. At the same time, that allows them to have some social interaction, particularly if it is done in a group setting, whether it’s a team sport, music with a band, or something along those lines or something similar.

Engaging in sports or music forces teens to practice delayed gratification, countering the instant dopamine loops of social media. Share on X

It’s interesting as you’re talking. It occurred to me, boy, so much has changed since we were little. One thing really hasn’t, and that is the one thing that most kids interact with on a regular basis, is super delayed, and that is school. A kid takes an exam. They don’t get a test score right away. They have to wait. A kid’s taking a class. They don’t pass it until the end of the year. They do not graduate for thirteen years. The concept or the format of school is absolutely delayed.

I watch kids have a real hard time with that. Like, “Why is it? I just took my exam. Why don’t I have my score?” I’m like, “You have to wait.” By the way, if it’s not what you like, you’re going to have to practice so that you can take another exam and do better. What’s interesting to me is that social media, because it jumps over that and it gives them the reward immediately, I think kids tend to like to paint that over everything. Like, “Why is it I went to see Dr. Pete for one visit, why aren’t I feeling better?” That’s not the way. That’s my point.

You nailed it. You explained it much better than I did. That’s exactly what I’m referring to. Like, this is the world they live in, which is immediate. Immediate communication, immediate response, immediate gratification. Immediacy is right there in everything they do. They don’t get to practice delayed gratification. Why is that important work? It’s because it creates a lot of frustration and anxiety that they cannot manage. Their expectation is now that everything happens right away, right now, right here. When it doesn’t, because life doesn’t work that way, it creates these symptoms, and then they come to our offices.

I see it all the time. One thing I see it in on a regular basis is that when kids, again, kids get to that junior or senior year in high school and they send those applications out, parents think that filling out the applications is the hardest part. You know what the hardest part is? Waiting is the hardest part. Kids are like, “I do not know how to wait.”

I do think all of that, I do not know how to wait, is linked to these apps. I’m going to also say, I actually want to write a book. Now I’m going to give the idea out. I have fantasized about creating a book that is called Let Them Be Kids. Do you know how important boredom is? It’s one of the most important things that we can do to learn how to reflect, self-soothe, be creative, and develop coping strategies. Boredom is essential for our brain.

With these social media apps at the tip of your fingertips, you are never bored. Never. You go to a cafe alone. Who does that anyway? Only old people like that. That’s what I was going to say. You have to be old to do that. You go to, like, you see somebody at a cafe, they’re not, what are they doing? Scrolling on their phone. They cannot even sit down and look around and be bored and have observations about the people, the weather, the traffic, whatever is happening in their community.

They’re consumed by this absence. Boredom is not present. All are linked. Boredom is not present. Constant immediate gratification, absence of effort. Why is this all important? I do not want to sound like an old person just reaching out to young people like, “You’re doing it wrong.” Why it is important is because at the end of all of that cycle, there are feelings of depression and anxiety that are very important, and our kids are suffering.

That’s a really excellent point, and a good summary. Again, a lot of parents will say, what’s the big deal? It’s just a phone, or it’s just social media. The big deal is it’s impacting kids, and quite frankly, it’s impacting adults as well. I would say that the sentence you mentioned earlier is about parents needing to be involved. This is so critical. This is one of those things where you say, “There is no shortcut to this, and we’re giving kids a device that’s really powerful.” The power that’s in these new phones is way more powerful than the desktops that we had growing up, and what kids can reach, good and bad.

It’s like swimming in a swimming pool. If you respect the hazard, it can be so much fun. You have to respect the hazard and realize that there is a side to this that can be really detrimental if you’re not careful. To all parents, please heed our warnings, recognize that both Dr. and I treat patients on a regular basis, and we see kids with issues that develop as a result of all of these things.

We’re giving advice because we want parents to be able to walk away from this show, hearing this information, and using it and recognizing, “None of us are perfect. We’re parents as well. We’re working on these things with our own kids.” We’ve seen a lot in our offices, and we’ve seen a lot of things that do work, and being more involved and really recognizing there are some things you can do with tech, especially before you give your kids the technology, to lay that groundwork so that it does not run your world in a negative fashion.

Dr. P, as always, I am so happy to have you back on the show. For someone who was initially so nervous to be on, you’ve become a superstar on the show, and to those who haven’t seen your first show, please go back and rewatch it. It was awesome. We might have even discovered a third show while we were talking. Who knows? We’ll have to ponder that idea, and we’ll put our heads together. Thanks again for your time, your energy, and your experiences, super awesome and helpful. I appreciate you being here.

Thank you, Marc. I’m so grateful to be here.

Thanks again. I appreciate it. Have a great day. Talk to you soon. See you.

Bye now.

 

Important Links

 

About Dr. Mariela Podolski

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Mariela Podolski | Social Media Mental HealthDr. Podolski completed medical school at the Universidad de Costa Rica in San Jose, Costa Rica. As her first attending job, she worked as a general physician in a rural area in the south east corner of Costa Rica. Excellent clinical skills were a must, given the lack of resources in the area at the time. This experience strengthened her medical knowledge, and she still utilizes these lessons in her daily practice.

She pursued her Psychiatry Residency at the Institute of Living in Hartford, Connecticut. This was followed by a Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship at The Medical College of Wisconsin in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Dr. Podolski joined Eastern Connecticut Health Network after graduation, working in a Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Clinic in an underserved area from 2012 to 2015.

She has been working with Walden Behavioral Care, since 2012. Initially as a Consulting Psychiatrist for their Partial Hospital Program. In 2016, she assumed the role of Medical Director for their Inpatient Eating Disorders Unit at Rockville General Hospital. This role allowed her to expand her eating disorder knowledge, as she treated patients with extreme eating disorders that required specialized inpatient medical and psychiatric stabilization.

She continues to work hand in hand with Walden Behavioral Care as a consultant.

She has held academic appointments for the University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine, and for the Quinnipiac University Frank H Netter School of Medicine.

Dr. Podolski is an active teacher and provides Eating Disorder lectures for psychiatry residents at The Institute of Living, University of Connecticut and for ECHN Family Practice Residency. She is frequently asked to present on the topic at different hospitals in the area.

She holds medical licenses in the states of Connecticut and Massachusetts.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Ben Gordon | Athlete Mental Health

Navigating Mental Health, Growth, And Wellness Beyond Basketball With Ben Gordon

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Ben Gordon | Athlete Mental Health

 

Host Marc Lehman sits down with former NBA star and NCAA National Champion Ben Gordon to discuss the realities of athlete mental health and overcoming life transitions. Maintaining optimal athlete mental health requires honest conversations, intentional daily routines, and self-acceptance both on and off the court. Ben helped lead UConn to the 2004 National Championship before being selected third overall in the 2004 NBA Draft by the Chicago Bulls. In recent years, Ben has been open about his personal journey with mental health, using his experiences to advocate for greater awareness, understanding, and support. He candidly shares how early athletic mentorship shaped his perspective on the mental game, the challenges of navigating public pressure, and his shift toward holistic wellness practices like intermittent fasting and fascia stress therapy. Ben also offers crucial advice for young adults struggling in silence, emphasizing the power of self-surrender, intentional communication, and slowing down in a hyper-connected world. This powerful discussion highlights why true strength lies in accepting who you are and building a grounded foundation for lasting resilience.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Navigating Mental Health, Growth, And Wellness Beyond Basketball With Ben Gordon

Welcome to the show, everybody. I am here to talk about mental health and wellness. I am joined by Ben Gordon of UConn and NBA fame. Ben, how are you?

I’m doing great, Marc. How are you doing, sir?

I’m good. I caught you right in the middle of a bite there. Ben is kind enough to join us and chat a little bit about mental health and wellness. Thanks for being here, Ben. I appreciate it. Ben is a former NBA star, NCAA national champion, and one of the most accomplished basketball players to come out of the University of Connecticut. Ben helped lead UConn to the 2004 National Championship before being selected third overall in the 2004 NBA draft by the Chicago Bulls.

During his eleven-year NBA career, he earned NBA Sixth Man of the Year honors as a rookie and became known as one of the league’s most dynamic scorers. In recent years, Ben’s been open about his personal journey with mental health, using his experiences to advocate for greater awareness, understanding, and support. He’s focused on helping others through wellness initiatives and by sharing his story to reduce stigma and encourage honest conversation about mental health and wellness. Ben, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it.

That’s my pleasure anytime.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Ben Gordon | Athlete Mental Health

 

As you can see, Ben is obviously into wellness. He is currently eating his watermelon and staying hydrated. I appreciate you doing that, Ben. Again, thanks for being here. I really appreciate it. I have to say, as a therapist, as a longtime Husky fan. One other thing before we jump in here. Ben, let me put this up.

What you got?

Let me put that up. You see that, Ben? That’s the shot.

It’s so far away. Bring it closer.

How’s that? Look at that. That’s the shot from that year, right?

The one we took to beat Duke.

Those of you who are listening who are UConn fans are well trained to dislike Duke, so that was quite a moment. Ben, you have created quite a few moments on the basketball court, and I want to talk to you a little bit about that. I want to talk to you a little bit today about wellness and young adults, and would love to get your opinions on things. Are you ready? I’m going to fire some questions at you.

I’m ready, man. Let’s go.

Ben, looking back, when did you first realize that your mental health really deserved as much attention as your physical health? What age?

Sixth grade.

At that time, what was going on for you?

I just joined the Boys and Girls Club in Mount Vernon. Where Lowes Moore was. I guess the director of the Boys and Girls Club. This was my first time, like, joining the club. It’s like YMCA, Boys and Girls Club type. This was my first experience with that as a kid. As a hooper, I remember I wanted these Olaf shirts. Anybody who’s from New York and grew up in the ‘90s, that Olaf was a store in Harlem where they had. These cool, like, basketball shirts. You would see all the guys, all the streetball players playing with them in Rucker and different tournaments and stuff. That’s where it started.

Lowes Moore, who was an alumnus of Mount Vernon High School. Also, had an NBA career. As I said, he was running the Boys and Girls Club, the programs and stuff. When I joined, I think pretty quickly he must have noticed something that stood out to him about me. We would have these conversations about development and skill training and the physical and mental aspects of the game of basketball.

Understanding the Mental Ninety Percent

That’s why I said sixth grade, because that was the first time I remember having a conversation with anybody about the mental side of the game. Lowes would always tell me how the game was like 90% mental and 10% physical. That was the thing that perplexed me right there as a kid was, wait, first of all, how is the game mental? Why is it such a big percentage mental as opposed to physical?

Sounds like he was a real mentor.

He was a real mentor, but he was also very cerebral. The way he would even ask you a question or tell you something, it made you just want to ponder on it a little bit more. I had actually had a conversation with him two days ago.

He’s remained in your world all this time.

Certain people in my life are like staples. Whether I talk to them every day or once a year, it’s still going to be the same type of vibe. Just because the things that we may have accomplished together were so polarizing. I share a lot of polarizing experiences with people.

Basketball taught me that performance is ninety percent mental. Taking care of your mind is the real key to lasting growth. Share on X

That makes sense.

It stands out to us. Remember this happened? I have a lot of moments like that where there are a lot of people, and then I hear people telling me all the time, “Man, you won me this. I won money with this.” I’m like, “There’s so many people that tell me they won money off me.” I’m like, “Nobody ever just came up and just offered me dinner. I’m like, “You’re making this money?

I have to say, I appreciate you making the time, Ben. If I’m ever in your neck of the woods, I’ll take you out to dinner. How about that?

I’m not too far, man. I’m not too far away. Be careful, I’ve been working up this appetite. That watermelon you told me to eat, that’s after fasting. That was just a little appetizer.

Tell me, I guess that leads me into like daily habits. Ben, you’ve been through a lot with basketball. Your career was very public and in the center stage in many ways, certainly in college and professionally. I guess I’m wondering, just shifting to like some of your daily habits, whether it be back then or even now that contribute to you being an athletic individual, what kind of daily habits do you incorporate?

I was eating a watermelon. I just cut off the end of a watermelon. My mom had a nice seeded watermelon, which seems like it’s hard to find these days.

It is.

It’s weird. I remember being a kid, and everything had seeds in it. Now if you even know that things are supposed to have seeds in them. There are probably some kids who do not even realize that this fruit has no seeds.

That’s true.

Just things like that. I would say I fast, intermittently fast a lot, just because I think growing up, I would just get up and like to eat. I had a schedule. Right now, I do not have a schedule as a retired person. My schedule depends on what things are going on in my life at the moment in time. That’s how I dictate my schedule. What’s going on in my life? Where am I at? What are my responsibilities at the time? Things like that. I have to compartmentalize things a lot. Because of my family situation, there are times when I might be by myself for a very long time.

Building Daily Rules Around Self Acceptance

I might have all my kids and be with all my other relatives and things like that. For me, something that’s helped me above and beyond is just one, accepting everything as is without trying to even fix anything. Just accepting myself for who I am. I do not think I did pretty good. I didn’t do that bad. After a while, I did pretty good. When you keep things, the more you make things simple, and you’re like, “How do I accept who I am? When I look in the mirror, do I accept who I am as a man?”

Everything in my agenda on a day-to-day basis just starts with that, is like, is it in line with who I see myself as a person? Meaning the things I am going to do for that day? Even down to eating, I am not going to get up and eat right away. To me, eating is something I have to build up to every day. This is just at this point in time, because you might catch me in the wintertime and I’m like, “Man, I just had the biggest breakfast with.”

It shifts and changes.

That’s the thing, it’s like there’s ebbs, and there’s different ebbs and flows in life. I’ve had to learn how to just be adaptable. A lot of people may not have to be learning how to be adaptable. Some people may not leave the site. I start off just intermittent fasting. It depends on my schedule. Like, “Am I going to work out that day? Am I going to train somebody that day? Am I going to stretch somebody that day?” It could vary. It might be a day where I do not have anything in the morning to do. I’m like, “This morning is just about me.” Starting my day off, getting off on the right foot.

Obviously, there are certain things I have to do every day, like errands. I’ve got to make sure my kids are eating. I have to make sure my bills are paid, whatever it is, whatever meetings may be, whatever updates I need to become privy to. There’s just certain things that are going to happen whether I want them to or not every day. I have to find a way to be an administrator to basically a multi-million-dollar or high net worth family office. I’m like the administrator because it’s my family, it’s my finances, my investments. That’s pretty much taking care of my life, my lifestyle.

That’s always out in the forefront, but a lot of those things become day-to-day things that are just. You can put things on autopay, and you can predict what your normal things are going to be. There are schedules with my kids. As I said, all that stuff depends. I would say my schedule depends. I’m truly retired. I’m not really a stay-at-home dad, because again, I’m a single father and I have three kids. My oldest son plays basketball, so I train him. I coached him.

Not like coaching him up like on a team or anything, but like if he has a game, I’ll go watch his game, and I’ll coach him up like just in the house. Talking to him about the game, the mental aspect, the mindset. Right out the bat. I understand very well the importance of mental health because I’ve struggled in that area. I’ve had to do things to bolster, not bolster, but I’ve had to do things and make changes in my life to make sure that when I feel myself having a bad day or what have you, that I’m able to just do my things, the routines that help me. It might be yoga.

Sounds like you have a number of different things on that list, Ben, things that you use to help you and remain stable. Let me ask you a little bit more about that, because I think you referenced passing along some of that information to your son, but also that’s information you’ve used over the years and gained over the years to remain strong. Let me ask you this. If a young person, let’s say a college student, is tuning in and they’re experiencing some of their own mental health difficulties. They’re telling everybody, “I’m fine,” because they just do not want to deal with it. What could they do? Any suggestions? What do you think?

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The first thing is they may really feel like they are fine. I feel like there are certain default answers that most young people give these days when you ask them, “How are you doing?” They all say, “Good. Okay. Fine.” That’s pretty much the baseline for how these kids are feeling. They’re just feeling like, “I’m good. Everything is so and so. It’s cool. It’s fine. It’s not a big deal.” I do not know how many times I’ve asked my child, like, “How are you doing? How was your day at school today?” He’s given me an elaborate answer. It’s a lot deeper than that. It’s not that hard. It’s not that easy these days to figure out how people are doing. Most people do not even know how they’re doing themselves because they’re not even taking the time to figure out how they’re doing.

Just slow down.

Breaking Free From Digital Automation

Everybody’s rushing. Everybody’s on their phone. I do not know how many people who used to wake up and like to kneel at the end of their bed and say a prayer at night and in the morning. I do not know how many people still do that because it’s a phone now. Before you can think about your spirituality or your mental health, it’s just easier to animate and just do this, something like that. It doesn’t require much thinking. What’s happening in that situation is, I feel like the parents these days have to be more emotionally intelligent. If I’m talking to my kid and every single day he gives me the same automated response, there’s something seriously wrong.

A parent who’s busy and doesn’t want to necessarily or doesn’t necessarily have the time to delve into something like, what does okay mean? I do not know what that means. I’ll just tell my son, “I do not know what this means.” Even though the word means one, it’s a deeper level. Like, “I do not know what insert hair stands for because it doesn’t feel like anything. It just feels like I had to say something. I said, “It’s okay.” As a robot almost. I do not know about people anymore. We lost the plot.

You’re accurate there in that lots of kids really avoid even thinking about how they’re doing. To be honest, so do adults on some level. If I’m hearing you right, one of the suggestions you’re making is to slow down and have some time for yourself.

I took my son to the airport. He has a trip planned with his mom, so I took him to the airport. A part of me was I do not want to just travel with him. He’s going to see his mom, but right now I have a swollen foot. What’s why I’m walking around, but I just wanted to just go somewhere else and just get some third treatment. It was at the last minute. We had talked about it a few days before, but he knew he was going to be gone.

I just forgot because I’m right now trying to help my foot. The couple of days when I had to walk with a cane, because there was so much inflammation and like my pinky toe, it felt like it was broken or whatever. Now I’m able to stand up. I’m moving around cause I’ve been soaking it, icing it, like just doing everything I can. It was a reminder when I got to the airport, and I was like talking to my son the whole time before the airport, all the way in the car ride, all the way to the airport.

I just find myself always trying to help him be better. I’m like, “I do not feel like he needs me to do that at this point.” That’s what I was thinking to myself when I was walking back to get a taxi or take an Uber or whatever. I was just like, because I feel like I’m having an issue with him now with communicating. Probably every parent in America whose kid has an iPhone or an Android is probably having the same issue.

I would agree. How old is he?

He’s fifteen, but I have the same issue with my 8-year-old and my 10-year-old. As far as this, like you’re trying to compete with a device that you pay for your kid’s attention for your kid. It’s very strange. It’s a strange dynamic.

Most parents understand, and it resonates with them. It’s something that parents are dealing with all the time now. Communication issues with their kids. Do kids, in fact, know how to have those conversations? When you say, “How are you doing?” Do they know how to go beyond the okay, or beyond the outline?

Great conversation is something that some of us face as yet, just because their brains are not fully developed. What does the average human do? Correct me if I’m wrong, but to have that brain develop in their 20s or like fully developed.

They are fully developed at 25.

At least I got you. At least that was what the number had in my mind. If you’re wrong, I guess we’re both wrong.

Ben, let me pivot for a minute and just ask. A lot of my listeners would want to know a bit about UConn, and you were on the UConn team in 2004 with Taliek Brown and Josh Boone, and who was on there? Help me. Charlie Villanueva?

Yes.

Obviously coached by the great Coach Calhoun. What was that like? Not too many people get to play for a legend like Coach Calhoun. What was that like for you?

It was a top-notch, first-class basketball experience. Everything you would expect more from a Hall of Fame coach. The thing that’s dope about the coach is he still checks on me. That’s something that’s very simple, but everybody does not do that.

That’s true.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Ben Gordon | Athlete Mental Health

 

For someone like myself, I think because of my temperament, even if I do need someone’s help, people just look at me and be like, “He’s there, he got it.” My foot is swollen. People want to help me, but they do not know how to help.

Why is it so hard to help Ben Gordon?

Supporting the Strong People in Your Circle

I do not think you have to attach a name to it. Think about any of your strong friends that’s always there for other people. What happens when nobody’s there for that person who’s always there for everybody else? What happens when no one’s pointing to that person?

The great point.

The person starts to feel resentment for things that they naturally would want to do. When they feel drained and worn down and unappreciated, whatever they’re dealing with stress-wise, now that’s compounding an already difficult situation. It was hard for people to help me because they’ve always seen me as never needing help, seemingly. When I go through something, I’ve had people tell me, “This is watching a TV show.” Everything that we consume now is like a vicarious experience. It’s like through someone else.

Reclaiming Inner Peace Through Nature

We have to watch TV to see other humans doing stuff, or we just will not go outside and watch people doing stuff. I thought it was weird when I saw kids watching other kids play video games on TV. You can have your console on there, but they just want to watch someone else play. I guess that’s fun. It’s like an observation. Again, it’s a vicarious experience. It’s not them having a one-to-one experience with the person or the place or the thing or whatever it is. As you see, I’m conducting this interview outside in nature. I just think that’s the cure for everything right now, honestly.

Staying grounded.

It’s secure for everything. Like, “There’s a financial crisis, go back to nature.” “Finances, the market is doing great.” Good. Go back into nature so you can stay grounded, so you know what to do with all of this extra income, so you’re not doing things that are just frivolous. There’s a lot of illusionary and delusional people out here now. A large part of me, for me, addressing my mental health was just addressing the things that were illusionary in my life and my delusions of grandeur that at one point in time were what I needed to make it to that next step.

If I’m hearing you right, then it sounds like some of that was helpful. Some of that was really not helpful.

Designing a Career Around Personal Health

It becomes both. It’s just a spectrum. It’s the same thing that worked for me when I got into the league. I’m always just going to overwork, outwork everybody, and that’s going to get me my playing time, and I’m going to make shots in the fourth quarter. That’s when I was 21. At 43 now, I cannot. It’s not wise for me to do that. I’ve got to, like, recover more. I got to get more sleep. I got to drink more. I got a high, so it becomes more about how am I taking care of the overall machine? It was always about that. When you’re chasing something that’s great, you’re going to have a lot of nicks and bruises before you get to that finish line.

No doubt. I’m curious. How does having someone like Coach Calhoun in your world, in your corner, supporting you, checking in on you, how does that help?

It just reassures you like, “I’m still that dude. I was not that dude. Look at who’s calling me.” I was worrying about somebody who hasn’t done one percent of the things Coach Calhoun has done. He’s still there in my corner. Some people, when you do not hear from them, you expect it. It might be that they never wanted to, never were who you thought they were. They just showed you a facade because that’s what they needed to do at the time to make things comfortable for themselves. You just never know what someone’s worldview is. You do not know what their moral compass is. You do not know what day they’re having. You do not know if they’re balanced, hormonal, or you do not know a lot of things. We’re just taking everything at face value.

That’s a great point. I’m curious, are you still watching the Huskies?

Yes. I was at the final quarter too.

Nice. What are your thoughts, having played for a coach? What are your thoughts about Coach Hurley? He’s definitely a modern-day, different coach. What do you think?

I feel like he has a lot of similarities to Coach Calhoun. When I see the passion and the fiery energy, the enthusiasm, the moxie, the kahunas. It seems very familiar.

Very similar. Definitely have a winning mentality. What stands out to me about both of them is they really care about their players. I’m not just saying on the court. I feel like they both want their players to succeed in life.

That’s true.

I’m curious, while we’re on the topic of UConn, the 2004 national championship. Obviously there was a lot on camera. I’m wondering, what’s a moment from that year throughout UConn that fans never saw that meant a lot to Ben Gordon?

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Have you ever seen the movie The Blair Witch Project?

Yes, sure.

When I was in school, my friends, my teammates, we always would have a Blair Witch at the time, is what we called it. That was just a camcorder. We would always record everything. Some guys would like to record certain things, like Shammond Williams was my roommate along with Emeka Okafor and like Scott Hazelton at one point in time. Williams was the type of guy that had his camcorder, and it’s like, about to go to the gym. I’m a film from here, like in the cafeteria. We walk over to the gym and get to the gym, and then somebody else that’s not playing probably takes over the recording.

He was ahead of his time then.

We would just do stuff like that every day. We have all this footage. We’re actually going to probably make a documentary out of it.

It’ll be fascinating.

Yes, it will be extremely fascinating. Obviously we have to have everybody approve certain scenes and things because it’s less like us in our candid moments in the locker room and the weight room, wherever we are. It’s great content. We’re in the age of that now where people want to see those types of stories and hear about them. I’ll keep you posted about that.

Sounds interesting. It sounds interesting. I’d like to see it then. You played against a lot of people. You were drafted by the Bulls. Remind me, Ben, where else did you play?

I played in Detroit for three years, Charlotte for two years, and then Orlando, my friend. Orlando, okay. I played in the G League, which is just like 25 games.

A lot of different people I would imagine over the years you played against. Who was one of the tougher players you played against?

Everybody was tough because we’re all at the highest level, but one of the toughest. Do you mean just like best overall? You mean like actual toughness, like.

You tell me one of the toughest guys you played against.

I’ll start with defensively, right? So when I think of like defenders, there’s like two or three guys that are just like pop right to the top of the file when I’m thinking about it. I got to go Ron Artest, Tony Allen, Bruce Bowen, and those three are the guys I remember like early in the league. Early in my career, like, “Damn, like Bruce Bowen.” He’s like 6’7″. I’m like 6’2″ or however tall he is. I had to play against guys that were specifically just long, lean athletes. That’s all they wanted to do was lock up.

There were so many great defenders. Any given night you could get locked up. Any given night, someone can go off for 50. That was the best thing. For me, like in the league, it is just like every night the possibilities are endless. Literally, you just saw someone last night had 40 or 50 or 10 dimes or a triple-double, or it’s always people striving to do something great.

As a kid, I remember Scott Burrell’s shot heard around the world, and I thought to myself, “Nothing like that will ever happen again.” Mullen hit the shot this year, but that’s athletics, that’s sports. That’s the fun of it. Ben, it sounds like since retiring, you’ve really blended wellness into your business. Tell us a little bit about what you do.

I have a website. It’s OOOEliteBasketballTraining.com. I got to talk to my web guy about it and see if he can just do OOO.com or something like that because OOO is like an umbrella and then underneath it is like everything that is lifestyle related. It’s basically a lifestyle offering. Honestly, a lot of the things that I’m doing that I’m transitioning into a business or putting myself out there. I do not necessarily need to be doing this. It’s more like a passion sort of thing. I created the website basically to address what would happen when I would be doing things for people just for the love of it.

The love of the game. What happens when you start getting drained, and you’re like, “I do not want to do this.” As I said, I do fascial stretch therapy. I’m a Level three therapist. There are only four. There are four levels. It’s just really giving myself something to do. When you do exactly what you want and what you were born to do, then you have to, you can survive. Everything is cool. You had fun. You traveled. I’m still only 43, and so it’s like, “What do you do now?”

“I got more to do.” Tell us what OOO stands for?

This stands for Of Our Own. It’s like there’s a sentence around it. You just pull that part out of the sentence. You can put things after it. Of Our Own Wellness. That was an LLC I had when I started my gym in 2017. It’s my wellness that I’m presenting to people who are inspired by me or are seeking me out or seeking something from me. It’s my offering to people. These are the things that the modalities that I’ve practiced throughout my life, the things I’ve learned on and off the court in regard to health and wellness.

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It’s something I want to share with people, but usually I do it just for friends and family. I’m like, “What happens when everybody is in pain?” The way my foot feels, if everybody in your household feels like that, now it’s not really for fun anymore. It’s like, “This is out of necessity.” Just like with the state of what’s happening from a mental health standpoint, I felt compelled to finish what I started. I like to continue the things that I started. As I said, I started this gym in like 2017, and I had it for like two years. If you remember all that COVID stuff around the gyms, it was all these restrictions.

It just wasn’t the right time. Now I do not have a brick-and-mortar gym, but there’s a lot of information up here. I know how to cope with myself out there without throwing myself out there. I can be a little more tactful. You’re not going to offer a virtual training session. There are only certain things where I might have to ask, like if someone wants to stretch, I have a network of therapists that want to get the lessons with me.

If I cannot get to a person in another state, I can refer them to someone. My business doesn’t have to be in a physical building anymore because a lot of stuff I’m doing is hands-on, or it’s consulting, or it’s advisory, or it might be virtual. There are all these different ways with technology where I can still spread health and wellness without compromising my own mental health.

I love it, Ben. There is a perspective out there on athletes that athletes do not have problems. Athletes cannot possibly have mental health issues. It isn’t until people like yourself get on shows like this and start talking about things that people start to realize people are people. You may have a better jump shot than me, Ben, but we put our pants on the same way every morning, and people are people.

Mental health is one of those things that, you said, you’ve accumulated a lot of knowledge and a lot of solutions and even a lot of good people around you that support you. To me, when I work with young adults going into college, they’re just starting their careers off early on, and they do not know some of these things. I really appreciate you sharing your perspective on this. I think you’ve been very open and honest about yourself and what you’ve been through and what you’re going through currently and how you’re helping people.

I appreciate that. I really do. Can I ask one last question of you, Ben? As you’re in the wellness space, you and I have talked a bunch, and I feel like one of the things that I’ve heard from you over and over again is that you’re constantly looking to grow and learn information. We’re this perpetual student and always trying to learn new ways to help not only yourself, but other people. I’m wondering, is there anything that you’ve been taught along the way, whether it’s the amazing coaches you’ve been working under, just people you’ve been around, getting attacked here.

I did not attack it. Just got to like, “I know. I just got to let them know.”

Is there any one piece of advice, like young adults and parents are tuning in, and I guess I’m wondering, is there any one piece of advice you’d like to offer that someone might have said to you when you were younger around management of mental health?

I would just say, like this, no man is an island. As soon as you start feeling like you’re drifting away mentally, and everybody knows what that feeling is like for them, just do not let it happen. Pull the reins in, and we do not all have therapists. We might not all know therapists, but we might not even know that some people in our lives are already our therapists. You just have to talk sometimes to somebody. That’s also dangerous, because there are people out there who manipulate people who are going through things. It’s like a slippery slope.

Find the right person.

Taking Small Daily Steps Toward Surrender

What I would say is the first thing for everybody is to try to accept something about yourself. Just one thing that day that you’re struggling, try to accept something about yourself that you didn’t accept the day before or that day. That’s easy, right? That’s just like, “I do not like how my feet look.” Maybe just start by looking in the mirror and making a joke about your feet to yourself. That’s it. That would be it for the day. What I found is that when I started to make steps in my journey, like real improvement, it started with accepting the things I couldn’t change. Now a lot of things could change.

At the moment when you’re so depressed that you cannot get out of bed, and in that moment, you cannot really change that. If you accept it like, “Man, I’m really depressed here. I really do not feel like getting out of bed.” “Let me accept it, man. I had a long, long year. Let me just stay in bed all day. Tomorrow I’m going to get up.” You’ve got to make these little goals and things for yourself while also showing yourself some grace. Just find one thing to accept about yourself that you maybe do not like, or maybe that other people do not like. Like, “Man, Ben has a hot temper.” As soon as I accept it, it’s like it’s a form of surrendering.

That’s great advice, man.

Once I surrender to the fact that I have a hot temper, now I’m able to look at myself outside of myself and say, “If you have a hot temper, that’s fine, but do not let people provoke you. Do not let yourself be around people who you know are going to trigger you.” Once I accept that I have a hot temper, now I can in good faith find things that’ll help me get better. The next day, if I didn’t procrastinate that day and pick one thing, then just do it the next day. I would just say slow down.

We’re in a society now where everybody wants to be gratified instantly. People do not even want to go outside and play anymore. They’re like, “Just turn the TV on. I can watch someone else play.” There’s been a lot of advancements in technology, but then there’s been a lot of de-evolution of humanity and learning how to live, learning how to just have a conversation with somebody.

I agree, Ben. Those are some really great pieces of advice. To those young people that are tuning in, really listen to what Ben had to say. Sometimes it starts with a daily step and that notion of, you were referencing the Serenity Prayer earlier. One of my favorites, just knowing the difference between what you can control and what you cannot. There’s a lot of stuff out there we cannot control, and finding a trusted resource, a person near you that you can open up to. That’s hard, especially hard for guys.

You’re absolutely right. I had a moment when I was taking my son to the airport because in my mind, I was like, “I’m just going with them.” My foot is swollen. There’s pain there. Really, I’m supposed to have my foot elevated because I have been doing my modalities the last few days. I’ve been soaking, I’ve been icing. The fact of the matter is the inflammation in my body is just going to take its natural way to wake itself up. I cannot poke a hole and then let everything pop out. It’s like, “No, it’s there to protect whatever has been bruised or infected or whatever. It’s going to take its time.”

Even if I’m icing it every day, it still might take till day seven for it to go down. It’s not a compound interest thing. We cannot be so quick to want everything right away. It’s like, “No, the beauty in life is the journey. This conversation, when we started, I was over there in the garden. I was over there, then I went through the kitchen. At the fort, I do not have to meet on the floor. I have the remnants of what I did. I made a full circle. Now I’m back here, and I’m looking at the garden from here. It’s like, that’s how life is.

You go around the block. It’s not going to be your first rodeo. You’re going to hear all these cliché terms. When you just realize, when you get to a certain age in life, you want to almost slow down a little bit. You realize how fast you’ve been going. I would say to young people out there and young parents, one, let’s all just today, let’s just start working on our communication. Every single one of us, we all need to get better at communicating.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Ben Gordon | Athlete Mental Health

 

If you’re a great communicator, you need to take it a step further and help people articulate what they cannot communicate. Some people internalize things, and they cannot get it out. If you’re a poor communicator, go find a pretty girl and just say, “How are you doing? What are you reading?” Nothing has to come out of it. It could be completely platonic, and I do that sometimes. I’ll go to the gym, and I just see an old woman, a young woman, a kid, whatever. I’ll just talk to them.

I teach kids how to do that, believe it or not. It’s one of those things, Ben, that I think when we were younger, we learned how to do it because we were playing outside all the time. It’s not necessarily natural for young adults nowadays. Ben, listen, I have to say thank you so much for just taking the time, giving us your energy, your thoughts. It’s really fascinating. I feel like I could talk to you all day. I do want to continue to help you get your business off the ground and assist you in some fashion.

Just know that I’m here for that and can help in any way you’d like. It’s really been a pleasure talking to you. You and I have talked a little bit around Normalize It Forward and the concept of, we’re trying to bring the stigma down so people can talk about these important topics. I’d asked you offline for a recommendation or a nomination of somebody, and no surprise to me, you nominated Coach Calhoun.

We’re going to try to get Coach on and see if we can nudge him a little bit so we can pick his brain a little bit on this topic. It’s always good to talk to various people and get their opinions and thoughts. Once again, Ben, I really thank you a lot. I will make sure to get all of your contact information up on this so that when this show does come out live, everybody can reach you and find a way to connect with you on your website. How’s that sound?

Sounds good, man. I would like to upload it onto my website too. As we spoke about, a lot of what I’m doing is based on training, and we want to make it to the NBA. We want to be in the Hall of Fame. We want to win championships. If you look at what I’m doing, it’s for the full athlete, like the full gestation of the athlete from birth to retirement.

It’s a life cycle.

I want you guys to go through and just take your time, click on one tab a day, and just read everything. There’s a lot of information that’s on purpose because that’s what I’m basically covering. It’s my entire life, everything I’ve ever learned, everything I’ve been through, everything that I’m currently going through. It’s like a past, present, and future type of accumulation of everything I got going. If people want to come and click a button and select the à la carte menu, I want to like what we just did. There might be someone who is just right. I’m not a therapist, but I have so many hours of doing my own therapy that I know I understand.

Get a background.

There are a lot of different things. My website is still a work in progress as well, so I’m not rushing. I want people to be patient with me just as I’m being patient with myself and everyone else.

I appreciate it. The thing that stands out to me, then, in looking at it closely over the last few weeks is your total honesty. You’re sharing information that you picked up, and it’s not filtered, which is great. I admire that. I admire your ability to want to assist and want to help. Keep doing what you’re doing, Ben. I’m cheering you on from out on the East Coast here. As I said, next time we’re in the same neck of the woods, lunch.

I’m actually in New York right now. When you asked me earlier where I was, I thought you meant like living most of the time. I’m in New York with family and friends. I’m actually going to be in Connecticut for a golfing outing, the Legends Golfing Outing this weekend. Hopefully my foot will not be swollen, and I will not be limping around up there.

That would be great. That would be great. We should connect then. That would be awesome.

I tricked you, man. I told you I’m hungry, man.

A meal’s a meal. Where’s the Legends tournament? Where’s that being played?

I can send you the information offline, but if I’m not mistaken, I believe it’s at UConn or somewhere. It’s probably going to be in Storrs. It’s a flyer, and it’s just something I think I posted on my page. When I get off of here, I’ll take a look.

Send me the info. Thanks again, Ben. I really appreciate it. We’ll talk soon. Have a great day.

Thank you, too. Peace.

 

Important Links

 

About Ben Gordon

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Ben Gordon | Athlete Mental HealthToday’s guest is Ben Gordon—former NBA star, NCAA National Champion, and one of the most accomplished basketball players to come out of the University of Connecticut.

Ben helped lead UConn to the 2004 National Championship before being selected third overall in the 2004 NBA Draft by the Chicago Bulls. During his 11-year NBA career, he earned NBA Sixth Man of the Year honors as a rookie and became known as one of the league’s most dynamic scorers.

In recent years, Ben has been open about his personal journey with mental health, using his experiences to advocate for greater awareness, understanding, and support. Today, he’s focused on helping others through wellness initiatives and by sharing his story to reduce stigma and encourage honest conversations about mental health.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Laura Doyle | College Mental Health

College Mental Health: Expert Strategies For The Campus Transition With Laura Doyle

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Laura Doyle | College Mental Health

 

As students prepare to head off to school, the conversation around college mental health becomes more critical than ever. In this episode, Marc Lehman is joined by Laura Doyle, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) with decades of experience counseling students, to discuss the realities of this major life transition. From managing academic expectations and social anxiety to the importance of self-care basics like sleep and hydration, Laura provides practical strategies to help students stay balanced. They also dive into the impact of social media and the vital role of building real-world connections on campus. If you are a parent or student looking for ways to foster resilience and wellness during the college years, this discussion offers essential guidance for navigating the challenges ahead.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

—

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

College Mental Health: Expert Strategies For The Campus Transition With Laura Doyle

Introduction To College Mental Health And Wellness

We are here to talk openly about mental health and wellness. I am super excited to be joined by Laura Doyle. Laura is one of my favorite all-time clinicians. Let me read a little bit about who you are and then we’ll get into our discussion. Laura’s a Licensed Clinical Social Worker an LCSW who’s been working with children, adolescents and young adults since ‘94. She spent 25 years as a school counselor here in Connecticut and six as a therapist and a coach. As a therapist, Laura employs an eclectic approach because every person and situation is unique. It is essential to tailor this approach to that person’s needs Laura feels.

She’s trained in Psychodynamic Therapy. Laura seeks to help clients understand what motivates their behavior by increasing their self-awareness regarding their past experiences. Laura believes that the most important aspect of treatment is to create a relationship in which the client can feel understood in a non-judgmental, safe, compassionate and supportive environment. Laura believes that listening, hearing and understanding each individual’s concerns and struggles is paramount, both initial sessions and as the work together progresses.

Laura has a particular interest in ample expertise in working with students with ADHD and often a company issues executive functioning, anxiety, and depression. Laura also has significant experience working with many different types of anxiety and depression. As a parent of one college grad and one post-college young adult, Laura’s a multifaceted and extensive understanding of issues students face in today’s world.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Laura Doyle | College Mental Health

 

Welcome, Laura.

Thanks so much for having me. I’m glad to be here.

I was looking forward to this conversation because I value your background, your experience. Many of the audience may be in that spot where they’re sending their kids off to school in the next couple of months and trying to get a sense of adolescents, teenage years and what that brings especially with this off to college. I just wanted to ask your thoughts on the transition to school and how that mixes in with mental health.

That’s a big question. It’s going to be different for each individual student and for students who are struggling at the end of high school. We see a lot of burnouts in high school students with the expectation of multi-APs and the high rigor that is expected. We see a lot of high school students not having a lot left in the tank at graduation. They then have to pretty quickly refuel and turn around for this next endeavor.

Having that more empty tank puts students a little bit more at risk for a bumpier transition. Students’ tanks are a little bit more full and they have a little bit more in reserve, they are better armed to hit the ground running once they hit college such as look to join clubs, get involved, and make connections. It’s when we see students that are a little more reserved to make those connections that the transition tends to be a little more bumpy.

I put you on the spot. I asked you a hard question to start but it’s a great answer, Laura. I wonder if there’s got to be parents out there that are thinking about their kids that are a little bit more passive, shy, and reserved and they’re wondering, “How will going to college go for them?” We know that they’re going from a known environment in high school to a very unknown. Most kids are going to college with no friends and no knowledge of other kids. I can imagine that being overwhelming for some.

I can imagine it can be, too. What’s different now than was a few years ago or years ago, social media comes into play here. Back in the olden days when I went to college, we didn’t have social media. We showed up on campus, and we made connections there. Now, there’s pages for accepted students to whatever school and there’s a whole process that’s painstaking for students. It’s finding roommates, getting connected to somebody, and making connections before they end up on campus. There’s a lot that goes into that. I don’t know whether social media helps or makes it more challenging, but that’s a part of it.

That’s a great point. I hadn’t thought of that. I’m sure you have this too with your students. Every year, students accept and then the first thing they do is they jump on Instagram. They try to find a roommate and connect. It’s just an exchange of cursory information and real basic stuff. For some kids, that helps reduce the anxiety of going.

You’ll have some connections when you arrive. You’re not brand new.

Helping Students Navigate Social Connections And Roommates

I’m smiling because I had a kid ask me, “Did you go random when you went to college?” I’m like, “That’s all I had.” We just showed up and you got paired up with somebody. Times have changed. There’s no doubt. I’m a fan of practical information. I’d ask the question. You’re a parent and you’ve got a kiddo who doesn’t have super strong social skills. You had mentioned a moment ago joining a club or an organization. How do you get a kid to take those steps if they’re shy and let’s say nervous to do? What do you think?

It’s about finding something that they’re interested in. Big universities these days, colleges have clubs for everything. There’s the Cheese club. If you like cheese and you want to talk about cheese. Go talk about cheese. To find something that leans into their interests, where they’re going to also connect with people who have similar interests and therefore, some connections can start. It’s about taking that leap of faith in the beginning of the year and going to the freshman college fair and walking around. Even if you’re doing this alone.

Find something that leans into your interests, where you're going to connect with people who have similar interests. That’s how connections start. Share on X

Maybe you have someone on your floor that you can go with, but signing up for more clubs than you think you want to be a part of because they don’t always work out. Sometimes, there are meetings that happen during a class or something like that. Even if your child is somebody where this is not in their comfort zone, to say this is the time to push out of that comfort zone and try to make some connections because the payoff down the road will be huge. I know it’s the hardest time to push out of their comfort zone because they’ve already pushed out of their comfort zone to just show up on campus.

That’s right. I’m on Instagram way too much for my business. Some of my favorite videos that I see are students that are 3rd year or 4th year graduating and they’re giving freshmen advice. The number one advice they always say is get involved. That’s easy to say and hard to do, but your points are good. I have noticed a lot of the schools are going to these activity fairs. Whatever they call them. The first week or two of school in the fall

If you’re okay with crowds and some kids aren’t, you can go to something like that and just leave your email with a bunch of different clubs. Let them contact you and strategize that way. I love that tip. That’s a great suggestion. You put it best. Take a leap of faith. Take a chance. Let’s just say, if it doesn’t go well, you don’t go back but you tried. For college freshmen, that can make a huge difference.

One other piece that could be helpful for incoming freshmen is to become a regular at the same spot in the library or the same study room or if there’s a coffee shop. Become a regular at the Student Union. Become a regular somewhere. If you keep going, you’ll keep running into the same people. Even if you’re super shy, somebody’s going to start talking to you and you will respond. Maybe there’s a connection there but become a regular.

I like that. It’s a great suggestion. These are little tips and tricks that you and I have discovered, and we’re passing along to kids. If parents are reading, bring these up with your kids because certainly, any leg up kids can have on the social side, makes them feel grounded and helps them a lot. I’m curious. You’ve seen students come out of public and private schools. Any differences that you notice just in general?

Do you mean from high school to college?

Yes.

I think all students are well prepared and ready for the rigor of college. The nice thing for most students going into college is that they can have more of a sense of interest in what they’re studying. There’s always the general education credits to get under their belt. Other than that, they get to choose for all students, whether coming private or public. That’s a benefit of getting to take what you’re more interested in.

No doubt.

I don’t see any significant difference between students coming out of public schools, versus private high schools.

I figure I’d asked because I know you’ve worked at some and you’ve seen kids through the process. The topic of Wellness comes up probably at every show that I do. I feel like in college that such a huge topic is overlooked by many. I’m curious when you think about the wellness of a college student. What does that mean to you, Laura?

The Essentials Of College Student Wellness And Self-Care

I’ll go to the basics like sleeping, eating well, hydrating, and getting some exercise. To me, exercise can be as simple as going for a walk. It doesn’t have to be a two-hour stint in the gym with heavy weights. If that’s your thing, do it but starting with the basics. We know college students are up to late. At least, they have the benefit of having later classes than they did in high school usually, so they can sleep a little later.

Go to the basics: sleeping, eating well, hydrating, and getting some exercise. Starting with the basics is key to managing mental health. Share on X

Once those are all in place, then thinking about what are the other things that are weighing on them. What other ways that they can take some time to refuel so that they’re not running on empty by the end of the semester. What are those things for them? For some people, it’s a walk in the woods. For other people, it’s painting. For somebody else, it might be a game of tennis or basketball. Whatever the thing is that refuels them to find ways to work those into their schedule in addition to social time. We all know that. In college, it’s such a good time for social time for many, but finding a way to add those pieces in.

It’s huge. It occurred to me as you were talking. People are getting my experience and your experience, over 50 years of working with lots of kids for you and I. I say what you just said all the time. For good reason, those are things that kids have access to like they can they can alter. It comes down to making decisions. It’s like, “Do I go to bed at 11:00 or at 3:00? Do I have three square meals of decent nutrition or do I eat a whole bunch of awful food?

I think those decisions are huge because, to me, most kids can choose to go for that walk every day or just move their body. I believe those three things such as eating, sleeping, and exercise help manage mental health symptoms tremendously. Those kids that are going off to school, are thinking about that. Be thinking about, “How do I incorporate these things?” Every kid has the opportunity to do those. I’m not sure every kid I speak to does those. It’s something to consider because we’ve all been there. Your buddy approaches you at 11:00 at night and says, “Let’s go watch this movie,” and you’re like, “That sounds great.” The next thing you know it’s 2:00 in the morning.

More likely, it’s Instagram or Snapchat. Students are getting into bed at a reasonable time, and then I’ll just spend a few minutes and before you know it, it’s now 2:00 AM.

Maybe that’s a good segue. We got a chat about social media. Let’s chat about it a little bit. I had a colleague contact me and she was telling me about a twelve-year-old young lady that she just started working with who is logging 40 hours a week on TikTok and another 8 or 9 on Snapchat. and I thought that is a full-time job plus. That’s a lot of hours.

Those numbers seem crazy to us but I bet you if we started looking at more and more kids. I’m looking at some of my patients with their phones. Those are ours that are not super uncommon. Maybe those are a little inflated, but that’s a lot of time. I’ll just ask you the huge question and put it out there. How does that type of time impact a person’s mental health from your perspective?

Understanding The Impact Of Social Media On Mental Health

That’s an easy question. We know it’s not good. Everything on social media is cherry-picked to be pretty, beautiful and ideal and makes us forget that life is this balance of these lovely moments and less lovely moments. Social media makes it seem like if we have any less lovely moments in our lives then our lives aren’t good enough.

Everything on social media is cherry-picked to be pretty, beautiful, and ideal and makes us forget that life is this balance of lovely moments and less lovely moments. Share on X

There’s so much comparison. We know that the comparison is the thief of joy and it never gets us to feeling better about anything. I will say I’m on social media myself. I love to watch good cat or dog videos. There’s my downfall right there, but it’s about like so many things in our world. It’s all about moderation. We don’t eat sugar all day long because we have to eat sugar in moderation. Social media is the same way. I know more schools are getting phones out of the classroom. Schools are seeing a resurgence of, I’m going to say old times things like hacky sack. Do you know what a hacky sack is?

Yes.

I love it. Kids are out bopping the ball away. I could never do it, but what a great way for them to spend time interacting in real life with each other as opposed to on the screen. Social media has its place. I think of it, as you imagine a treat. It is not something that we should be spending all day on. Only for a limited time. I don’t know about Androids but on iPhones, you can set restrictions so that you have a notification. For some students that helps. For other students. they ignore it and go pass. You can also get notifications of how much time they’re spending on their phone. It sounds like you’ve had these conversations too, where I’ll ask a student to pull it up like, “How many hours have you been on your phone?”

It’s shocking. Sometimes, parents are shocked. They have no idea. I appreciate that. You hit the nail on the head. Everything in moderation. These things are just like an extension of our arms. They’re available all the time. What better way to fill our time. As you said, a simple dog or cat video, instead of ten minutes, ends up being two hours. We’re just lost in the algorithm. I would just point out to both kids and parents. I’m thinking about what you said about sugar. It’s always good to have a nice slice of pie or dessert or something like that. We would never eat the whole pie. I feel like kids are eating the whole pie every day regularly.

Multiple pies every day. They’re facing the odds here, because there are office buildings after office buildings filled with people whose entire jobs are to keep them eating the pie.

There is more independence in being a college student. In high school, teachers look over your shoulder; that happens much less in college. Share on X

It’s a great point. Also, video games are very similar, but a little more transparent. Kids understand that concept. Whereas, kids on their phones. I would also argue that going to college, to me, one of the awesome opportunities and experiences kids get is to meet new people. It’s hard to meet somebody when your face is on the phone. I love the story about a hacky sack. I’ve heard the same thing and I encourage kids to do anything that they’re able to do out and about, interacting. Having the time like this and having a conversation. Any of that is great.

Awesome to hear. We swayed into self-care, which is an equally important topic that I talk to kids about a lot in school. I’m curious to ask also. We jumped over academics. What do you typically see students when they’re transitioning and they’re heading off to school? We’ve got some students that are prepared well. They hit the ground running and they know what they’re doing. There are other students that are a little surprised in terms of the shift that takes place academically. Can you talk about that a little bit in terms of what you see with your students?

Managing Academic Independence And Expectations

There is more independence in being a college student versus high school. In high school, your teachers will look over your shoulder and make sure you’re doing what you need to do. That happens but much less in college. Usually, if you’re hearing from your professor, it’s not good news. It’s, “You’ve got three assignments overdue and are worried about this class. Maybe you need to talk to your advisor about dropping the class.” You don’t want to get into that situation.

Early on, it’s understanding the expectations that are different and how this transition from high school to college will be different in each class. It’s understanding what each professor’s expectations are in their classes and recognizing when they say this work is optional, is it really optional or do the reading or at least skim the reading? Only because there’s nothing that holds you accountable to having done the work, doesn’t mean you don’t have to do the work.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Laura Doyle | College Mental Health

 

That’s a tricky spot. I love this idea of thinking of those school days as a work day. Where you get up for your first class and then between classes are study halls, if you want to call them that and you have other classes. You can get your academic day fit into these hours. In the evening, you can watch a movie with your buddy on Netflix. Maybe not until 2:00 AM. You do have time to be social and do some other things rather than starting your homework at 10:00 at night. Which is pretty common for a lot of high school students but they don’t have the flexibility in their day and that ability to use those open blocks in the day to accomplish stuff, so that you can plan for some social time later. It’s a great strategy.

Awesome strategy. You were referring to the 9:00 to 5:00 piece that people have talked about in the last couple years. I, too, subscribe to that. It’s a good idea. I usually say to students, once you leave your dorm during the day, don’t go back. There’s no reason to go back during the day. Go to the gym or the library or the dining hall or take a walk. Find things to do out on campus and then come back at the end of the day when things are complete.

There are students out there that underestimate how much work on a daily basis will be asked of them. I usually say to kids, “It’s typically two to three hours each day once you get through that first week.” I want to go back to something you said because I want to highlight something. You were talking about sussing out the professor and getting a sense of who they are.

That first week, in my opinion, the syllabus week. They’re going to tell you. You’re going to have professors that will say, “By the way, you don’t have to come if you don’t want to, but you still have to.” They are going to have professors that will say, “You better come. If you miss three, I’m going to fail you.” Make sure you go to those classes. They’re going to tell you those things. They’re going to give you those hints that first week. To me, a lot of kids will maybe not go to those classes. I find those classes to be extremely helpful to set things in motion in a good fashion for this semester.

Finding that self-accountability is the big difference. It’s like, “Nobody’s taking attendance, but I still need to go to class. Nobody knows whether I’m going to do this reading, but I still need to do this reading. Nobody knows that I could sneak back to my dorm and take a nap and maybe sleep through my next class.” I love that idea of not going back to the dorm.

Once you’re out, there’s other places for you to go and to be more social that aren’t your dorm room where you’re going to be alone and by yourself. Be out there. Be in the world. That’s the hard part. It’s that accountability that didn’t necessarily exist in high school. In high school, your mom or dad made sure you were up and got to school on time. Now, maybe you have a roommate who will do that. Not too many roommates do necessarily.

Let me push you on that because it’s a great concept. I’m wondering why. Why does the student need to be self-accountable, especially if they miss a class that no one seems to care about? What do you think?

It matters. Your professor notices. I’ve heard things like, “There’s 500 people in my class.” Usually, in a class like that, there’s some other way of sign in. It’s not just that. If you’re not in a smaller class and there’s twenty people, your professor knows you’re not there. Reaching out and saying, “Sorry I missed class. Is there anything that I should know or do?” It goes a long way with professors. You’re sending them an email.

I love that concept. My feeling is this. Whether your professor knows or not, at some point, you’re going to hit something. It’s like driving fast. At some point, you’re going to either get a ticket or get into an accident or something’s going to happen. To me, if a kid misses a class and nothing happens. They’re likely to do it again and again. At some point, you’re going to fail that class. By the way, that means you got to take it again. The self-accountability piece to me is huge. It grows a kid up too, to say, “This is mine. Someone’s paying for me to be here and this is my job. I got to do this.”

That’s a great way to think of it, like, “This is mine. This is my job. This is my responsibility. I’ve got to do it.”

Suicide Prevention And Intervention On Campus

I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you a little bit more about mental health because you and I work obviously with a lot of mental health. We know the mental health numbers in college are not great. The stats are not wonderful. One of them, when I present, I talk a lot about because it’s a little shocking for parents but truthful, is the national number of kids that walk around college campuses is 1 in 9 that have suicidal ideations.

To me, as a parent, that’s scary to hear. Anything around suicide is scary to hear. We, as providers, as parents, and as people that are locked into our community, we hear about tragedies that happen, unfortunately, a lot. Suicide is a very real scenario that is now the number two leading cause of death in this age bracket.

There’s a seriousness to one’s mental health and managing one’s mental health. You and I had talked earlier about the importance of self-care and how that can help. What are some of the other things that as a therapist, you make suggestions to or talk to kids about so that they’re remaining more balanced throughout their days at school?

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Laura Doyle | College Mental Health

 

I still got the suicide thing in my head.

I know. It shakes you, right?

It does. That statistic is an uncomfortable statistic. It is a scary statistic. When it comes to concern about suicidal ideation, what we want more is more connection at a time when kids tend to be less connected in some ways. Finding ways to be connected like connected to roommates, professors, somebody on campus, a coach, or a clinician. Those connections where there’s a regular contact of somebody looking out for their welfare or their best interests that can recognize, “Is this a bad day or is this a slide? Is this something more than that?”

We all have bad days. Bad days are a part of the good days, too. They’re mixed in. When we see more of a slide and we start to see academic assignments not being handed in, classes being missed, and sleeping. Sleeping through classes is a big warning sign on a more regular basis. That’s when we need the intervention of professional support. More than just what parents can do. Parents can call. Parents can talk to kids. It’s wonderful for parents to put that support in as well, but I do think sometimes you need that extra step.

It’s worth mentioning too, Laura. Both of us are parents and we’ve got kids that have been through college. There’s nothing worse than that feeling of your kid struggling. They’re far away. We can’t jump in our car and get to them quickly. What you just said is so valuable and I want every parent and every kid to hear this. Setting up a resource for someone on campus. You and I have talked to so many kids that are depressed. They’re isolating and sad. The last thing they want to do is connect, but it’s the first thing they need.

Finding whether it’s a neighbor, a roommate, an RA, an RD, a trainer or a teacher. I don’t care if it’s the person serving pizza at the dining hall. Who cares? If you make a connection with a trusted individual, you’re making that commitment to say, “We got each other’s back. We’re going to keep an eye on each other. If Laura’s not doing well, I’m going to make sure I’m connecting with her. I’m going to nurture her because I want to let her know she’s not alone and people care.” That establishment is so important and it’s highly underestimated by a lot of students.

It’s only a thought. If parents know that stat like you and I, we’re shaken by the word suicide or even the thoughts of suicide. You might be thinking, “What can my kid do?” I would say that’s something your kid can do. It’s to make those connections. It’s funny why people connect. There’s times where I’ve had kids say to me, “I connected with my econ professor because we like the same ice cream.” I don’t care what the reason is.

Don’t be afraid to make those connections because, to me, before class or after class, teachers get into the profession because they want to help kids. I’ve heard the strangest ways kids are connecting with teachers but, to me, it’s wonderful that teachers can recognize, “All these kids are looking for support and connection. I can give that to him by having a conversation and asking them a bit about break or whatever it might be.” To me, if parents and students are looking for ways to do that, find some trusted adults on campus to connect with and to feel supported by. I have one more question for you. To that parent who is far away, like you and I have been. We’ve got kids at school and they’re struggling. What can a parent do?

Practical Advice For Parents Supporting Students

Know your student’s roommate because it is very easy for our kiddos not to answer their phones. It’s very easy for them to turn the ringer off or be asleep and not know. We’re sitting half a country away ringing our hands because we are worried about them and they just overslept. They’re perfectly fine. Get to know their roommates. Get the roommates number and be like, “I’ve been trying to reach out to my kiddo for a few hours now. and haven’t heard anything. What did it look like when you left the room?” That’s a great resource. It’s definitely having roommates or their friends. If it’s not the roommate, hopefully, there’s one or two contacts on campus that they make. Other than that, that’s hard.

It’s a tough spot to be in. I love the suggestion. I would further it by saying to parents, if you have a conversation with the roommate and say, “Would it be okay if I shared mine number with you? Can I text it to you?” Simply texting it to them and they’re sharing the number back without even having the conversation. You’ve just opened the door and more often than not, kids have no problem doing that and you’ve just helped your kid establish a connection.

You’ve also done one thing. If the roommate’s worried about your kid, now they can reach out to you.

Huge. Parents don’t often think of that upon drop off. Everything’s exciting and they’re a little sad about leaving. For most parents, you’re not going to have a connection with the roommate. Maybe parents weekend. It might be months, though, before you see them again. Be thinking about that, anyway. Laura, I appreciate you spending some time with me. Can I put you on the spot and ask you one last thing?

I’m not sure I’m prepared.

You’re good. The way we have it set up is, I have my guests try to think of a friend, a co-worker, a relative or someone that you’d want to nominate that I’d have on the show at some point. Any thoughts that you have in your rolodex of people?

I’m thinking, Brenna Chiaputti. She’s running a private school.

Brenna would be great. I know Brenna well. Brenna, you heard it. You’ve been nominated. I will reach out to Brenna and get around the show. She’d be great. Brenna is a social worker, I believe, on the Middle School level.

At Kingswood Oxford.

She’d be a great person to have in the show. Thank you so much for spending time with us, Laura.

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

 

Important Links

 

About Laura Doyle

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Laura Doyle | College Mental HealthLaura is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) who has been working with children, adolescents, and young adults since 1994.

She has spent 25 years as a school counselor in Connecticut and six years as a therapist and coach.

As a therapist, Laura employs an eclectic approach because every person and situation is unique; it is essential to tailor it to each person’s needs. Trained in psychodynamic therapy, Laura seeks to help clients understand what motivates their behavior by increasing their self-awareness regarding their past experiences. Laura believes that the most important aspect of treatment is to create a relationship in which the client can feel understood in a non-judgmental, safe, compassionate, and supportive environment. Laura believes that listening, hearing, and understanding each individual’s concerns and struggles is paramount, both in initial sessions and as the work together progresses.

Laura has a particular interest and ample expertise in working with students with ADHD and the often accompanying issues of executive functioning, anxiety, and depression. Laura also has significant experience working with many different presentations of anxiety and depression. As a parent of one recent college graduate and one post-college young adult, Laura has a multifaceted and extensive understanding of the issues students face in today’s world.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Russell DeRosa | College Student Routine

Building Athlete Resilience Through Daily Routine And Discipline With Russell DeRosa

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Russell DeRosa | College Student Routine

 

Establishing a solid College Student Routine is essential for navigating the overwhelming pressures of higher education and performance. Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist Marc Lehman welcomes Boston College Strength and Conditioning Coach Russell DeRosa to discuss how structure builds long-term mental and physical resilience. Russell DeRosa shares his twenty-four years of experience training elite athletes, revealing why daily habits reduce anxiety during high-stakes transitions. The conversation explores how both athletes and non-athletes can manage uncharted academic waters by taking personal ownership of their time. By replacing chaos with intentional habits, young adults learn to face adversity on campus without becoming overwhelmed. Parents and students alike will gain practical insight on shifting from passive survival to proactive growth.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

—

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Building Athlete Resilience Through Daily Routine And Discipline With Russell DeRosa

Finding Balance Through Routine

Welcome to the show, everybody. I am super excited to welcome into the show, Russell DeRosa. Russ, how are you?

Very good. Thank you very much for having me.

Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. Russ is in his 24th season as a strength and conditioning coach for men’s ice hockey at Boston College. In addition to his responsibilities through hockey, Russ is in his eighteenth season in charge of strength and conditioning efforts for all of BC’s Olympic sports. Prior to his promotion in 2007, he had served five seasons as an assistant strength and conditioning coach on the Heights.

DeRosa has worked with more than 50 BC players who have been selected in the NHL draft, including 22 first-round picks. Since his arrival, more than 55 players have gone on to compete in the NHL. That’s impressive, Russ. DeRosa joined the BC strength and conditioning staff after spending seven years in the mid-90s at Yale University, the last five as assistant director of sports conditioning.

In that position, he oversaw the strength and conditioning for 32 intercollegiate sports programs. DeRosa received his bachelor’s degree in health and fitness from Springfield College and earned a master’s degree in exercise science with an emphasis on exercise physiology from Southern Connecticut State University in 2001. DeRosa is currently a member of the National Strength and Conditioning Association. Russ, welcome.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Russell DeRosa | College Student Routine

 

Thank you. As I said, I’m really excited to be on your show and looking forward to the conversation.

As am I. I got so many questions for you about what you’ve done and where you’ve been. I guess I want to jump in and just mention that I’ve been on my own health and wellness journey, I would say, for a consistent two years now. I know that so often I talk about with patients, with students, that I work with wellness and where that fits into balance and just overall health. You’re an expert in the field. Let me ask. Strength and conditioning, where does that play into balance and happiness overall?

One of the big roles that strength and conditioning plays is not only the ability to stay healthy, but when you’re coming in, and you’re on a structured program, and you have consistency, it develops a routine. Routine with the training, and obviously what you do is, whether it’s weightlifting along with cardio, that’s going to keep you healthy. Having a routine and being consistent, I think in the long run really helps to develop you more both physically and mentally.

This gives you that opportunity now to know that you have structure in your life, and that as you go through and you progress through the program that you’re doing, not only are you building in some opportunities to get better both physically with your strength, but also mentally. Knowing that you have this routine set up can help you to develop through all the other stuff that you face and the adversity that you face through everyday challenges.

I couldn’t agree more. The word routine is such a healthy word. I guess I’m wondering, because you see a lot of athletes and I see a lot of both athletes and non-athletes, how would you say a routine looks specifically for a college kid?

The Structured Day Of A Student Athlete

A lot of them, going through the course of the day, especially here at Boston College, you do have to go to school here. You’re going to your classes, you’re meeting with professors. On top of that, a typical day will work out at six in the morning. Most of the guys and women are in at about 5:30 in the morning, going to the training room, doing whatever they need to do to prepare before the workout. They’ll come in and will work out from six to seven in the morning. They’ll have their breakfast, they’ll do whatever rehab work they need to do with the athletic trainers and whatnot.

They go to class, and then they’re back in here usually by 1:30 or 2:00, and they do their pre-practice warmup. They go to 2:30, and it will be a team meeting. They do video, and then they come back, and we’ll do another warmup before they jump on the ice. They go out, they practice, they come back in the weight room afterwards. They’ll get their supplements, they’ll work on their flexibility, work on their mobility, work on any type of issues they may have had in the past, trying to prevent that for this season coming up.

They might have class at night again, or they have to go over and go to study hall. Especially our freshmen, they have to go through that through the study hall and stuff. Their day is really planned out. Especially once you get in season, a lot of the, it’s an old reference to a movie, but Groundhog Day. Doing that same routine day in and day out. What we find, and what I found as a coach, is that they need that routine and they need that structure.

Not only because it allows them to continue to get better, but what they do is they get a sense of comfort, and they know that, “I need to be here at this time. This is what I’m doing. This is when I could fit in some extra work with Russ, or this is when I could fit in some extra work with our learning resource center or whatnot,” and allows them to really plan their days, their weeks, their months.

It’s great. It sounds highly structured, and it sounds like there isn’t much wiggle room to sway. I guess I’m wondering, the non-athlete, from your perspective, who’s coming to school this fall. I find that so many freshmen coming in have a vision of what school will be like, and then they get there, and it’s a little bit different. It can be overwhelming, but I like the word you use. Routine.

Consistency builds confidence. Having a daily routine creates the mental and physical structure needed to handle life's challenges. Share on X

For so many kids, not only having a routine of when they get up, what they do after they get up, having breakfast, going to class, having some time to work out or some format of fitness, having that routine can be, I think, a lifesaver for so many kids. Can I push you on the topic for a minute? We’re on the same page with this. Why do you think that is, that routine? Why is that such a big deal?

Navigating Freedom In Uncharted Waters

The reason is that they are young and they have experience. Now all of a sudden you’re in uncharted waters. I’ll use my son as an example. He’s 21 years old. He’s going into his senior year at American University. As a freshman, he went to a really structured prep school for high school, and all of a sudden you’re in college, and it’s a Monday, and you only have one class, and your first class is at 2:00. Now, no one’s telling you to get up, eat breakfast. No one’s telling you to make sure you get lunch in. No one’s telling you to prepare for your class or anything like that.

Just watching him go through that and trying to help guide him through that a little bit, he realized that and he said, “All of a sudden, I felt like to have all this time, I felt like I was less prepared for my classes, less before what was in store for me that day, because one day I’m waking up at nine in the morning, another day I’m waking up at 11.” Freshmen coming in, even though you’re not playing the sport, it’s going to be a whole different situation. We have some athletes where they only have night classes. Once again, maybe their freshman year, they had classes in the morning or whatnot.

Every year, even though it’s structured in this routine, it changes, and they have to be able to adapt to that. Once you get all that freedom, that’s where you either learn to put yourself on a routine, or you have to seek help for someone to help you build that structure and that routine. This is true for whether you’re in college, whether you go to your first job or whatnot, people who I felt that I’ve met in my life and that I’ve worked with, people that had routine, people that have structure are usually people that can handle a lot of adversity in different situations because it doesn’t become a panic situation because all of a sudden all this stuff is being thrown at them.

A lot of our male and female hockey players have open ice during the day. Once you go out there and have a plan, make your own plan, “I want to work on skating backwards. I want to work on my wrist shot and I want to work on transitioning from one end of the ice to the other end of the ice as if it was a game scenario,” tend to develop better than the ones who go out there with a bucket of pucks and just try to wing it.

Coaches can help them with the structure, but the ones who really already go out there, already have that feeling, already know about that structure, and then some of them, they’re at the point where they’ll even take notes on their own, “I felt I did this. I feel I need to work on this. I got to talk to the coach about that,” they’re at another level. In a roundabout way, just getting back to the regular student going there, the more they can have an idea of what they want to do, what they want to accomplish. That’s the other thing. I think it’s tough.

A seventeen-year-old student who, for your whole life, you’ve been going to class every single day, Monday through Friday, and class starts at whatever, 7:30, 8:00, and you leave school at 2:00, and you’ve had a person telling you, “Go to this class, go here, go there.” It’s tough because, especially depending on the campus you’re on, BC’s campus is not a huge campus, but you still have different parts of the campus you have to figure out where your class is.

Even that alone, if you’re going to a place that’s a big campus, we travel, you go to UConn, you go to UMass, those places are massive. Those campuses are vast. That could kind of lessen some of the anxiety of being a freshman. Fortunately for an athlete, that’s already put in place for you. That’s where someone who’s not playing sports anymore could really benefit themselves by creating their own structure or at least having a plan.

It’s a great idea. I hear in my field, there are trends you hear lately. In the last couple of years, I’ve heard a lot of people talking about treating school like you have a nine-to-five job. I want to point out to the kids that are tuning in, and even to the parents that are tuning in, you’ve got two individuals that are professionals in their fields talking here today with over 50 years of experience. Both of us strongly feel like that routine is a game changer for many kids.

Those kids that are coming to school and they’ve got their five classes scheduled, but they do not know anything else that they’re doing, it may be helpful for parents to have that conversation. I have it in my office all the time with kids to say, “You have a nine, you have a 10. Well, what are you going to do after that 10:00? You’re done for the day.” What do you do because you’re going to have kids that are going to go back to the room, they’re going to take a four-hour nap, or they’re going to go and poop pot.

Sudden freedom without structure leads to overwhelm. Building your own routine early prevents academic burnout. Share on X

They’re going to do all sorts of things. You have got to decide what you want to do and what is part of your routine. Healthy eating, exercise, to me, is just a given. You have to consider that because you’re definitely going to feel better if you do that. I like what you said a lot about athletes. For my non-athletes that are listening, I think it’s helpful for them to understand why there’s such a structure with athletes and why coaches do that. Without that structure, athletes probably would not get done what they need to get done, right?

A hundred percent. The academics here are very demanding. If you let one thing slide, now all of a sudden that does affect. “I slept through class. I did not do this.” The problem is now you’re a couple of weeks behind academically. That affects you on the ice. I do not care what anyone says, because in your head, you’re thinking about, “I got to get off here. I should have read these chapters. I didn’t read them. I have a test coming up now.”

Staying Locked In Where Your Feet Are

Now, all of a sudden, where you should be able to focus, we want them when they come, and they walk into the locker room, or they walk into the weight room, your whole focus should be on practice, should be to be present. One of our coaches, our former coach here, Jerry York, who was a long-time coach, would kill me for saying this, but a legend in college hockey. He would have one of the players come up in front of the team and read the book, The Precious Present, and was constantly talking about being where your feet are and making sure that you’re locked into that.

You’re sitting in a classroom. You shouldn’t be thinking about what you’re going to do on the power play. You should be thinking about what’s going on. All these things that you do and that these kids go through at a young age really are lessons that they take on for the rest of their lives. You go play in the NHL, or you’re playing in the AHL or whatnot, or you’re going to work for a Fortune 500 business. These are all lessons and recipes for success that a lot of them do not understand that they’re getting while they’re here now, but as they come back, they really realize it.

Once again, that’s where I feel like it’s tough. 17 or 18 years old, you’re trying to handle all this hockey, and you’ve got your goals with hockey and then you’ve got your goals academically. It can really become tough to have those people around you to guide. Coach York retired, and Coach Brown has taken over and has done a phenomenal job in that culture and educating the young players on how to stay structured and how to really take care of the business you need to take care of that’s right in front of you.

It’s very well said, Russ. It’s funny, I feel like, to be fair, I’d probably think this as well at seventeen, but it reminds me of when a kid gets their driver’s license, and they look at the parent as though they’ve been driving for 30 years, like, “I got this, I’m good, I got it.” At my age, I’m still learning, you know what I mean? Freshmen in college get to campus, and they’re like, “I’m the exception. I do not need to do this, I do not need structure, I do not need routine, I got this.”

I guess I’m curious to ask because I deal with mental health so much, and I see the anxiety levels and the depressive levels with kids in particular in college, unfortunately, are really high. I guess I just wanted to ask from your perspective, beyond routine, what can kids do when they get to campus to avoid some of those pitfalls?

Building Resilience Through Campus Involvement

I truly feel getting to campus and then going to meet with your advisor, going to meet with professors, even if you’re not having trouble in a class or whatnot, going to their office hours and just really getting to know the professor that’s teaching you, being a part of campus, I think, plays a huge role.

Tell us more about that, because I agree.

I’ll give you an example. When I was at Yale, and I was coaching there in the ‘90s, I would speak to just as many pro scouts for whatever sport it was as I would to recruiters that were working for Goldman Sachs, working for these top 500 Fortune investment banking companies. I said to them, “How come you guys are so into our athletes?” The athletes here at BC and at Yale, they’re both very intelligent. What he would say, or she would say, is, “We can go out and get the person who’s been on campus.”

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Russell DeRosa | College Student Routine

 

All of a sudden gets that 4.0, perfect student and all that, but they showed up freshman year and basically were either in the dorm or in the library. You got the athlete, or you got a person that’s been involved with campus throughout the four years and has that academic background, is smart, but can handle adversity. That was the biggest thing that they liked about athletes. The fact that if you go and you lose a game or you have a bad play or a bad shift or something like that, you can move on. If you’re an investment banker, believe me, I do not claim to know about investment banking.

Neither do I.

You lost a lot of money or had a bad investment. That did not end you. That did not break you. You were able to figure out how to get past that, move on, and then continue, “How do I become more successful?” Whereas the other person who is very smart cannot handle that because they haven’t experienced it.

It’s a great point.

Whether you’re playing a sport on campus or you’re doing intramurals, or you’re going in, you’re just getting involved with a club, it’s going to teach you things that you’re not going to get in the classroom. I feel like the more you could be part of this campus, the more you could really get into, we are a Jesuit school. There is opportunity if you’re into religion and whatnot to really get involved with that.

The message that they have, if that’s something that you really enjoy, you can get involved that way. I truly feel that once you become part of the campus that you’re on, the comfort level becomes much higher. You do not have that situation of, “I can still go and be involved with this club or whatnot, which is also going to help you create structure.” It’s not that, “I feel like it’s me against the school.”

A great point.

Did I answer your question?

It does. It’s a great point. It’s a great suggestion for all incoming students, and a lot of schools are going to these activities fairs the first week or two of school. I always encourage students. I’m like, “Go check it out.” There are booths and clubs for everything. The involved student oftentimes has a better experience. What you just said about recruiting agencies and businesses and even athletic organizations is really accurate, and I think really important for students to hear that adversity happens. It’s part of the process, part of the journey.

My question is not, will it happen? My question is, what will you do about it when it does? As you said, I find myself saying this all the time. College teaches you a lot of things outside of the classroom. Some of those life things. Those are things that students take with them far past college itself. I will say, I think the typical student that underestimates, you were talking about the rigor at BC, underestimates the rigor of college can get behind rather quickly. I find that these things have created poor social skills for some kids. Even the commentary of going back and seeing your teacher or connecting with an advisor, all that stuff can be really challenging for kids.

Failure is part of the growth process. Getting involved on campus teaches resilience that classrooms cannot replicate. Share on X

I would say that from my perspective, they have got to figure out a way to do it anyway, whether it’s connecting via email, trying to find people. Professors that maybe are not as scary to them that they can connect with, whether it’s a TA or a particular personality type. I would say that, for students, in my opinion, students get behind academically. It can be a week or two. Before they know it, they’re now experiencing symptoms of anxiety, symptoms of depression when they’ve never experienced them before. I’m curious about your thoughts on that.

A hundred percent. What happens is that thing creeps into everything. That creeps into their social life. They have become more reserved, and as I said here, not only are we competitive athletically, but academically, this is a very competitive school. You get involved in a classroom, and you’re one of those kids who normally, “Coming from my high school, I was one of the top two percent.” All of a sudden you’re here, and you’re like, “I got a C for the first time.” I’ve been in this classroom, and these kids are. Some of these other students are answering these questions, and I did not know the answer to this.

Moving Beyond Parental Fixes

It just becomes that uncharted water. I know it becomes a little controversial, but I think parents have to do a better job of saying, you can give them guidance, but you cannot go fix it for them. You cannot be the one calling the professor. You cannot be the one calling the coach, anything like that. I got to say to my son, Andrew, “You’re struggling with this class. You need to go talk to this person. You need to go see if you could set up a time to meet with them and go over there and do that.” The fact of the matter is, like we just talked about, this is one of those learning situations outside the classroom. They need to go do that. You’re right.

A lot of them are so used to, “Mom or dad handled this for me.” Now this is where you have to go do that. Just the mental aspect of this and stuff, I think it’s great that there is so much more awareness. Along with that, I feel like it’s also been used almost as a handicap for the person involved. Whereas there are situations where wholeheartedly, 100%, we need to take care of. Just like in this is how it ties back into training. You have got to know the difference between what I’m doing when I’m working out hurting me, or is that just soreness?

Can I work through this? Is this something that’s really negative that’s setting me back and whatnot? Not to jump around on you here. That’s where I feel like a lot of what needs to be done has to be done by the student themselves. Outside of something really tragic or anything like that, I do feel like going and handling those situations is going to not only make them mature mentally, but also give them the tools they need to succeed once they leave here.

I agree. I have a couple of thoughts. I just want to call out, mean, you and I are also parents, and I think for parents, it’s hard. If you’ve got a kid at school and they’re away from home and they’re struggling to be able to guide them, rather than fix it is really hard because I think there’s that instinct for a lot of parents to just say, I could make this better. I do not think you’re teaching at that point. I think you’re fixing and solving. For students, it’s interesting, Russ. I agree with you on the concept that students really need.

Pushing Past Uncomfortable Boundaries

There are things they need to be able to do to be able to make life better. For example, if students are in a pattern where they’re missing class, they have to find some solutions, like get an alarm clock to get up early, create a new structure for yourself, try something new if what you’re doing is not working. A lot of kids I talk to, it’s amazing. They do not know what to do. They do not know what to try. They’re like a blank slate. I’ll have a kid come in, I’ll do an evaluation on them, they’re having this problem and that problem, and I start brainstorming ideas. It’s pretty common that I’ll have a kid look at me and say, “I have no clue as to where to turn. I have no idea how to fix this.”

I get into the whole concept of, like, what we’re going to do is probably going to be a little uncomfortable and may feel a little out of the box. That’s where the solution lies. A lot of kids are just looking in that comfort box. They’re not looking. To your point about lifting, there’s a difference between your aching muscles because you’re getting a good workout versus “I just hurt myself. I just went too far.” For kids, a lot of it is discussion with parents, discussion with allies in terms of coaches and staff on campus that they can set up for themselves.

The one thing I’ll just say overall, and I’m guessing you’d agree with me, Russ, is students need that support. When they get to college, I think most students are like, “I’ll just do it the exact same way I did in high school.” They find out that it does not work very well. College life is so different. Even the concept of what you said before. You said it brilliantly, to the all-star kid who gets into BC. They’ve always been the smartest kid in the room. Now there’s a lot of, I’m not even going to use me, because I was not that kid, but there’s a lot of Johns.

You’re sitting in a classroom with like 13 or 20 or 30 other kids that are just as smart as you. Now what? Now what do you do, right? There’s a lot to it. Quite frankly, the transition should not be underestimated. I love what you guys are doing at BC. I have to say, I mean, the one word that kept popping out to me as I heard you describing it is that there’s so much support. There’s so much support and structure.

Growth begins outside your comfort zone. Embrace the discomfort to unlock your true potential. Share on X

The funny thing is that our guys and women that go on to play pro hockey, they come back. They realized how much they had here that even at that level at the NHL or the PWHL, they got a lot of great stuff there, but they do not have that person. When practice is over, usually at those levels, everyone goes on. It’s a job. Here, they have access to whether you’re having trouble with academics. You have trainers here all the time. Something with that, myself, strength coaches, they come in.

We’re pretty much here from six in the morning to seven at night, plus on the weekends and whatnot. Those are things that they did not realize. Their whole support system here, both physically, mentally, and spiritually here at Boston College, played such a huge role in supporting them for their success, whether it be on the ice or in the classroom. That’s something that I give credit to our coaches here at Boston College. They do a phenomenal job of not only recruiting talented athletes, but also great character kids.

That’s great.

They’ve already had that foundation. Most of our athletes are just good people. You can build off of that and try to get them to understand, “This is the next step.” I do not work with a lot of non-athletes. I do not work with them at all, I should say. I see them around campus, and I see what they do in the community and all that. They already have that foundation. I think, as you talked about, they need to then find out who I continue to seek out and then lead me down that path to develop more and more, both as a student and as a person. They’re definitely here at Boston College, whether you’re an athlete or not an athlete.

There are opportunities everywhere for you. That’s where, as you said, they have got to take that leap of faith and “I’ve never done this before, get out of my comfort zone.” We always talk about that with our athletes, even just when we’re playing, “We were out running before this, had a dry land training session for our men’s and women’s ice hockey team there.” We’re always talking about it. You have got to be able to work outside your comfort zone here.

You have got to make sure that you’re continuing to accelerate, decelerate, and whatnot. That just carries over into everyday life. This is uncomfortable for me. It’s something I definitely have to do. Much like you said that you were not one of the top academics, neither was I. I know when I was transitioning from my undergrad to my grad, and our mutual friend there, Matt, can attest to this because I was going to grad school at night while he was there.

That was really uncomfortable for me, and trying to get that next level of academic success. You’re right. I fell into it myself. I was not sure who I should talk to about this. Who do I make sure I can continue to get this success and whatnot? It took me a little while, because I went back for my master’s degree two years after I finished my undergrad. You get back into that routine, plus coaching all day plus classes at night.

It’s exhausting.

Trying to get back in there. I remember taking it now with the kids. They laughed at me, but we had a notebook and everything. Everything here now is off of iPads and laptops and all that. I remember taking notes, and I was writing down everything the professor said. I was not in that routine anymore of being able to pick out what’s important, what’s not important, and all that.

Routine’s huge. I would just summarize because I want the kids tuning in to hear this. Getting involved is huge. I believe there’s support on every campus. You guys are doing a fantastic job with your athletes and your hockey program in particular. I hear these stories often from campus to campus. The fruit is there for picking for kids. They just have to reach out and get involved. As you said, even if it’s a little uncomfortable, I think there’s growth there in trying something new. Look, I really appreciate you spending time with us, Russ.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Russell DeRosa | College Student Routine

 

I know you’re super busy. I have to say you are a super dedicated individual. You’re spending long hours with these kids and obviously having lots of success, and most importantly, helping kids really enjoy a sport that I’m sure you really enjoy quite a bit as well. That’s fantastic. I appreciate you spending time with us. One last question for you, as I mentioned before. Normalize It Forward, I set up a couple of years ago, more along the lines of getting kids and parents to understand how important it is to talk about mental health and wellness.

Really, that concept of, even if you’re that kid who’s never experienced it, you may experience it in ways that surprise you a little bit, especially in college for all the reasons we’ve talked about. In order to keep the conversation moving forward, I typically will ask my guest. Do you have a friend? Do you have a coworker? Do you have a relative? Do you have somebody that you know that you think would be good for me to maybe interview next? Any thoughts, Russ?

I do have to say, we have a team priest, Father Tony Penna. What Father Penna does, Father Penna and I, when we’re on the road, we travel together, so we usually drive to the games. Not only is he a good friend, but he’s really become a part of my family. He does a phenomenal job. It doesn’t matter what religion you are. He’s able to bring everyone together, bring them in. I also feel like he does a great job for the campus because he does his role. He does work with non-athletes also. He is definitely one of those people that I always talk to about seeking out and being able to look for guidance and whatnot.

He plays a huge role with our team and really makes it a comfortable situation, whether the athletes have to talk to and meet with him. They set up meeting times on their own. It’s not mandatory. The whole team does it. They could talk about anything and everything under the sun, whether it’s religion, whether it’s hockey, whether it’s, “How do I handle this? What you’re feeling on that.” He’s very down to earth, and I think he would be a great guest.

Thank you so much for nominating him. I’ll get the contact info from you offline if it’s okay. I appreciate you bringing his name up. Honestly, as you were talking, I was thinking, “I talk about mentors all the time,” and I feel like kids are lucky in high school and college to get a couple. You’ve had a couple of people that you and Father Tony are definitely two, I think, that stand out to me as kids would be lucky to have in their world. Russ, I appreciate all you do and really do. Again, your dedication is admirable. Thank you so much for your time, your energy, your thoughts. Have a fantastic rest of your day.

Marc, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. It was great speaking with you.

It’s great talking to you too. Take care, Russ. All the best.

Bye.

Bye-bye.

 

Important Links

 

About Russell DeRosa

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Russell DeRosa | College Student RoutineRuss DeRosa is in his 24th season as the strength and conditioning coach for Men’s Ice Hockey at BC. In addition to his hockey responsibilities, DeRosa is in his 18th season in charge of strength and conditioning efforts for all of BC’s Olympic sports.

Prior to his promotion in 2007, he had served five seasons as an assistant strength and conditioning coach on the Heights.

DeRosa has worked with more than 50 BC players who have been selected in the NHL Draft, including 22 first round picks. Since his arrival, more than 55 players have gone on to compete in the NHL.

DeRosa joined the Boston College strength and conditioning staff after spending seven years (1996-2002) at Yale University, the last five as Associate Director of Sports Conditioning. In that position, he oversaw the strength and conditioning for 32 intercollegiate sports programs.

DeRosa received his bachelor’s degree in health and fitness from Springfield College in 1995. He earned a master’s degree in exercise science with an emphasis on exercise physiology from Southern Connecticut State University in 2001.

DeRosa is a member of the National Strength & Conditioning Association.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Brian Keiser | Student Mental Health

From Academic Pressure To Personal Growth: A Deep Dive Into Student Mental Health With Brian Keiser

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Brian Keiser | Student Mental Health

 

Navigating the complexities of student mental health is a challenge that many young adults and parents face today. In this episode, Marc Lehman is joined by clinician Brian Keiser from U Are Heard to discuss effective strategies for managing stress, overcoming academic anxiety, and fostering true wellness. Brian brings his unique perspective as a Guided Pathways Advisor II to shed light on how modern pressures, including social media and the desire for constant connectivity, contribute to the rising rates of anxiety in students. Together, they explore the importance of small, consistent habits—like prioritizing sleep, nutrition, and genuine human connection—as the foundation for long-term success. Discover actionable advice on how to support independence in students while maintaining the essential support systems they need to thrive in college and beyond.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

From Academic Pressure To Personal Growth: A Deep Dive Into Student Mental Health With Brian Keiser

Meeting Brian Keiser & His Path In Higher Ed

We are here to talk about mental health and wellness. I’m super excited to be joined by Brian Keiser. Brian is one of my clinicians from U Are Heard amongst many other things that he does. Welcome, Brian.

Thank you for having, Marc.

Thanks for being here. Brian’s got lots of experience over many years in higher ed serving in various roles at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, Yale University, the University of Bridgeport, and currently Connecticut State Community College. He spent the majority of his career in academic advising with the specific focus on STEM education. He also has ten years of experience teaching Psychology. Brian holds a Bachelor’s of Arts and Communications studies and a Masters of Arts and Ed Psychology from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.

His PhD studies were interrupted by the pandemic during which time he was conducting research at Yale-New Haven Children’s Hospital in partnership with the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. Outside of that, Brian enjoys running along the ocean and biking. He also hosts two shows himself which is Path Finders through Connecticut State and a personal show Beach Chair Chats. Both of which are available on Spotify and Substack. Brian, thank you so much for taking the time out of your super busy schedule to be here.

I appreciate that. I feel like I have an accomplished career after reading it here and all that.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Brian Keiser | Student Mental Health

 

It makes you feel good, right?

It does. Except for the run part because I’m injured. You brought up two traumatic things like my PhD getting killed by COVID and then plantar fasciitis on my foot. Great time for mental health talks. I appreciate that.

That’s why you get one of these, Brian. I get the same thing going on the ice pack, the foot. I’m sorry to hear that. Hopefully, that heals up for you soon. I know you enjoy your runs. By the way, if you haven’t seen them online. Brian takes some amazing photos on his runs and certainly enjoys those as well. Brian, where to jump in? Let’s start with your work at the school you’re at which is Connecticut State Community College. Tell us a little bit about your role there.

I am a Guided Pathways Advisor II. It’s like the associate director. I call it Quarterback II to the director in the backup. I work with students from all ages that come straight out of high school, all the way to 65 plus, lifelong learners, part-time students, students that are here for a couple semesters to get an associates or wherever they want to go. I work with STEM students predominantly. Yet, I have no STEM background. If you ask me anything about engineering or bio, I’m not your guy.

I’m here to help counsel you through that wise and credibly hard. I’ve been working with it and we offer free tuition here at CT State. It’s a great benefit for lots of our students to have an education where they can figure this out and see where they want to go for an affordable price of $0. It’s not a shameless marketing promo for this, but it’s great for the students. It’s great for the families and the communities. They get a lot of students. They come in here with the ambitions to do awesome things. This is helping them get on the right track and see where it takes them. That’s a lot of the work that they do.

I imagine as I referenced before, Brian. You’ve been doing work with my business U Are Heard for a while now. You see students all over the country supporting them with various things. That’s a good lead-in to ask. The topic of self-care comes up a lot and as we were talking before about your running, how a person helps themselves and manages their daily stress level. What does self-care mean to Brian?

The Necessity Of Self-Care And Managing Professional Burnout

We do this work. You’ve been doing this for a long time as well. When you work with people and you help people, you take on all their stuff. It’s a tough job. Sometimes you get a student that’s easy to work with. It’s finals week. It’s the time of the year where we get a lot of the heavy. Even with the work that I do with U Are Heard as well, students go through a lot. A lot of times, they don’t tell you that until it’s sometimes too late and we’re here to fix it. You take a lot of that energy, the good stuff and the bad stuff. Sometimes, it depletes you even in this helping profession that we are. Self-care is important. Otherwise, you get burned out.

The notion of creating something—making your own food—stimulates your mind in a way that's so filling. It takes away that sense of stimulating the mind of doing something from start to finish. Share on X

I feel it in higher ed all the time, especially this time of the year when we get the faculty sent off and they go off for the summer. We’re still here for the summer. It’s trying to maintain the notion of doing the things that you love to do. It’s getting outside for me. Going for a run or getting on a bike. I’m sitting by the beach. Hence, the Beach Chairs Show. It’s the things that make you happy that you have to maintain.

I give that same message to my students, too. I have a lot of them that want to go into this field. They want to be therapists, doctors and nurses. It’s the same concept when you’re trying to help people. Every time you give yourself to somebody in that way your time, it takes a little bit from you. If you don’t practice the self-care part, you will lose it after a while and you get that burn out feeling.

It’s a great answer, Brian. You made me think why is that so hard for so many? For many individuals, including myself, we are brought up in a way that it’s selfish to go ahead and take care of yourself in that manner. I’ve learned professionally over the years. It’s necessary in order to maintain it because as you said, both you and I have been in this field for a long time. I’ve known many people that burnt out and left the field.

For me, I use exercise as well as a way to manage my own self-care. It allows me to free up some of those things that we hear. Let’s face it. We hear a lot of stuff throughout the day and that can be a big time challenge. Self-care is a big one. For many, it’s not just soothing stress, but it’s also eating well and getting good sleep. I don’t know what you see, Brian, but I find my students don’t do very well. Do you hear about that a lot?

The students delay the convenience of food. We talked about eating well and there’s this sense of like, am I going to tangent here of the convenience of fast food or DoorDash? There’s no effort put into cooking food. I’m a firm fan. If you don’t mind me going on a tangent here. The notion of creating something. It’s like making your own food. It stimulates your mind in a way that’s so filling. You take things away in a convenience like, “I’m just going to order not only in Chipotle.” I could go to Chipotle and get it or I could have them delivered to me for twice as much money and I don’t have to do anything. It’s convenient, but it takes away that sense of stimulating the mind of doing something from start to finish.

Eating well is important but it’s also just the idea of creating food, a dinner, or whatever you do with it because you accomplished something. I didn’t sleep well, but it’s commonplace for me nowadays. If I get five and a half hours or six hours, I can function, but sleep is important. A lot of the time, students will stay up late at night. They’ll be up on the phones or gaming. They get on the old blue screens and they can’t settle their mind down.

They get tired the next day. They don’t get enough sleep or they sleep until noon or something crazy like that, which I hear that. I’m like, “How?” Wonderful. I’m up seven hours prior to that. It’s the basics. I teach that to my students. I go, “If you sleep, eat well, drink water, hydrate so you can function. Otherwise, you can’t take care of your mind or you might not do what you want it to do because it’s revolting because it’s this mad.

If you sleep, eat well, drink water, and hydrate, you can function. Otherwise, you can't take care of your mind because it's revolting. Share on X

Those fundamentals are important. I find most of my students are good at one or two of them. They’re not good at all of them. They usually neglect something. It’s important. My audience is made up of young adults and their parents. It’s important for parents to recognize that these are things that they have the opportunity to shift and change. If they want to be drinking on a regular basis and get hydrated and take care of that part. It’s not hard. It’s a matter of choice and recognizing, “That’s going to have a positive impact on me.”

That’s not hydrated with Monster energy drinks, by the way. It’s not a shout out for Monster, but the health of that, too. It’s cardiovascular health. If you chug Monster drinks to stay awake, it’s going to make you more tired. I see it all the time. You just had three Monster drinks and your heart’s probably going to stop. Now you’re tired.

The simplicity of water. That will take good care of you if you allow it to, but you’re right. There’s some of the garbage. I have patients even coming into my office with drinking I’m shocked at. No surprise to you, Brian. The mental health of students I feel like in the last 5 to 10 years is moving in the wrong direction. Anxieties are up. Depressions are up. Certainly, post-COVID, we’ve seen those numbers. There’s no one particular reason but I’m curious from your point of view. What are the contributing factors?

Digital Overload: Why Social Media Is Fueling Anxiety In Students

I read a book. I’m not saying it’s the end, all be all sources of anxiety for young people, but The Anxious Generation book by Jonathan Haidt. It’s a great element of anxiety. It’s one aspect of it. I want to say it’s like this is it. I’m not going to say social media is horrible, but cell phones are bad but there is that. Since COVID, I always find the online thing is like, people are starved for connection but they’re incredibly lonely still.

They’ve been online this whole time since 2020 in COVID. They’re over consumed by text. They can’t have conversations. I’ll say hi to students in the hallway and they have the headphones on and clinging to the wall looking to the depths of the abyss. I’m making eye contact and I’ll say hello to them and they completely go through a shock.

It’s alarming. We had this book discussion at school about the same book. They can’t solve problems because they have artificial intelligence to do it for them. They can’t cope because they might turn to ChatGPT for therapy. It happens. It’s terrifying that they do. They’re stuck online because that’s where everything is. Another book I read too is Dopamine Nation, which you’ve read. It’s a great book. It talks about this stimulus.

They’re overstimulated by the online that they need. They can’t live without it. I’ll walk out of my office and I’ll have ten students sitting there all on their phones. I walked in a hall, they’re on the phone. They don’t talk. Having actual human conversation is one aspect of it from being online so much. I give props to parents who can keep their kids off of that for as long as they possibly can. It’s a huge challenge for parents now because there is a pressure to say, “I want to be on Instagram, Mom and Dad. I want to be on this.” I give Australia credit and band it until eighteen. Go Austria. They’re not ready for it at a very young age.

I’m not going to use addictive to it, but it is very much addictive in a way that, outside of that, they can’t have the basics of just what human conversation would be. Every part of the sensation from your mind to stimulate you from an actual conversation with the human being that you can’t get on the phone to think being forced in situations makes them highly anxious for that. I give students how to do presentations and they just panic to talk about themselves. This is not the hardest thing to do, but it’s a fear of being looked at, being judged, being this.

Social media creates a concept of love and having followers. Almost embed this narcissistic tendency that we have even followers. We’re not liked. We’re not acceptable and have to be something you’re not. That’s this one aspect of it too, but there’s a lot. There’s a lot of things that make those kids anxious nowadays.

Social media creates a concept of love and having followers. It embeds this narcissistic tendency that we have; we feel like we're not liked, not acceptable, and have to be something we're not. Share on X

It’s a big one. You made me think of like ten different things. For me, when I’m going through intakes and I’m asking questions around obsessiveness. I’m a little shocked as a therapist of how many young adults obsess about the interactions they had with other peers. Did I stick my foot in my mouth? How did they think I was? Did they like me?

A big part of the reason that’s become such a common obsessive notion with young adults is they don’t have that framework where they haven’t done this. They haven’t had direct conversations so often. Another thing you made me think about and I’m curious about your thoughts on this. I feel like this is becoming commonplace. I came across a young adult a few months ago. We were looking at her phone together. She was using TikTok on average 40 hours a week. We then looked at Snapchat and it was another ten. This kid had a pretty extended full-time job just with social media every week.

I looked at it and I asked her mom. She was thirteen, by the way. Her mom had relatively no idea she was on it that much. Those numbers might be high, but I feel like there’s a lot of kids out there that are spending that time on social media. You got to figure that’s 50 to 60 hours of time that they’re not socializing.

Part of that too, is you talked about the parents not being aware. There is a huge thing. Parents nowadays are not like the old days. Either moms stay at home or there’s a parent home or dad was there. I was fortunate to grow up with my mom there at the home and my dad was on a farm. He was there. I had my parents, but now you have both parents who have to work one or two jobs. They give the kids devices early. I see young kids from a developmental psychologist. I see very small children with these devices that aren’t ready for that.

Being locked in to that and getting addicted to it so soon, they can’t break out of it. I’ve seen students go through withdrawals. Let’s say, give your phone away for three days. They go, “I had a craving for it. I had this.” It’s the same thing. It’s never going to be a shame on parents. I’ll never shame a parent. I can understand the world we live in and having that stuff, but it’s a hard look at keeping kids outside, even K-12.

I work in higher ed. I see students come out of high school not ready for it. At the K-11 system, you’re plugging Chromebooks in front of kid’s faces at a very early age. You’re doing everything online at a very early age. Teachers in kindergarten can’t even take their kids outside the play anymore. They have to do assessments and tests. It’s changing the landscape. You’re putting a lot of pressure on the innocence of just growing up.

I’ll even say this, too. You talk about stress and mental health. I’ll give a story. I was talking to mom. She was trying to get her daughter into Calc 2 class over the summer or Calc 1 and Calc 2. She goes, “I want to do this so she can go to a four year school and have it ready to go. She’s sixteen.” I go, “Hold on a second. Pump the brakes. She’s sixteen years old.” She goes, “I wanted to get ahead.” I go, “Is she here?” She’s making this decision. I almost told her, “You should go watch 16 Candles again and remember what it is to be a sixteen-year-old girl and you’re not wanting to take Calc 2.” There’s pressure even for kids. They feel anxious to do and achieve so much. There’s a lot of things there that caused that pressure for kids.

The messaging there is, let your kid be a kid. The intensity as parents, we feel like we’re helping when we’re doing that but we’re creating a lot of pressure.

Talk to your kids. Reach to your kids. Don’t give them devices until they’re ready for it.

Maybe when they do have devices, maybe tech free time. Maybe they’re doing it already in schools. Perhaps at dinner, maybe just some hours in the afternoon and evening some tech free time so it forces them to be looking at. We’ll call it an old school thing.

They do have screen timers that you can put on phones like Instagram use. You can cut it off. You just have to keep turning the timer off to go back on it. There are things like that. It can be done. It’s just reinforced in that so they don’t get addicted to it.

The Myth Of Time Management: Why Choice Matters More Than Schedules

Brian, in the topic of general wellness, I know academically, one of the things that we see a lot of is kids having or even adults having a difficult time with time management. I’m curious about your thoughts on that topic.

It’s a fun one because I hear all the time, it’s like, “Management time, I get distracted. I just procrastinate.” I said, “Is it really that?” I asked them this question. I always have them sit in my office and I pull up my cellphone. I had a game controller in here for the longest time from my son that I confiscated. I pulled these things out. I go, “What you’re trying to learn is your cell phone out. You’re spending twenty minutes on this and then you get a text. You go down a rabbit hole of TikTok,” which I always find funny because clocks make the sound of tik-tok. Which I always point at the clock behind me.

It’s fascinating. You go down a rabbit hole and you spend twenty minutes. All of a sudden, your learning is being disrupted. It’s like if you watch a movie and you scroll Instagram during a movie. You look up like fifteen minutes have passed. You rewind the movie. You can’t do that with studying. You can’t do that with learning. Information processing model of development. If you’re disrupting the process from short-term to encoding, to sensory inputs, to the long-term, you’re never going to retain it.

Anytime that they get disrupted. I always say it’s not about time management. It’s about choosing what you use your time for. If you’re spending time not being focused or using devices that are near you or setting online and all of a sudden, your chats pop up or you have a game device on another platform while you’re trying to learn. You’re never going to retain the information.

It’s not always about time management. It’s an easy crutch to go to. It’s the choice of where they spend their time that I see that they don’t choose or they choose poorly. It’s like in the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade line where he goes into the temple and picks the wrong chalice and chooses poorly. Those with phone movie references, they do a lot of that, so you might get it.

Take it step by step, day by day. Don't think about what five years looks like down the road. You never guarantee tomorrow. Share on X

I did. It’s a great point, Brian, that choice concept. I like giving kids that opportunity to say, “You can make an alternative choice.” Kids say, “I learn better when I have music on.” Nobody does. Your points are good. For parents, it’s helpful to get kids in that zone because our tech is around us all the time. If they’re choosing to not turn them off or to not minimize certain things, then they’re choosing to be distracted. That will take an hours of worth of work and turn it into two or three pretty easily.4

I always say too, when I get students ending up on probation. There’s two reasons why you end up on probation. There’s controllable factors and uncontrollable factors. You could be in the best intention to be a student then life happens. You can get sick. You can lose your housing. Somebody else in your family could have passed away. You could lose a job. It’s uncontrollable. You don’t see it coming, but they happen. It disrupts your education because you have to shift your focus but it’s the controllable thing.

Those are harder to break because those are behaviors. If I’m gaming eight hours a day, the outcome is going to be what it is because time is gone. I’ve seen that happen. Those are behavioral changes that are hard to fix because they’re like, “I want to watch Netflix and binge the new series that came out.” All episodes in one day and finals are next week. That’s a choice. I’ll give another story. Again, I have lots of stories.

A student at the University of Nebraska. It was interesting because he was in the DJ Club and he is a farm kid. It didn’t match but whatever. He wasn’t academically not doing well. He goes up to me and he’s like, “We have this event off campus and I want to go to.” I was like, “You have two choices. You can go to the event. DJ your heart out. Go take your finals and see how it goes or you’d skip the event and take a chance.” He chose to go to the event. I said, “If you go to the event, you fail out. You’ll never be a student. You can’t go to any more DJ Club. Eventually, you won’t be a student here.”

He chose to go to the event and he failed. A lot of times, they prioritize things like, “What is it?” College students have a tough time trying to balance their social part and then there’s the academic part. A lot of students are anxious. This goes back to environments that they come out of in high school or parenting environments. If you get a kid that comes out of an environment with very authoritarian parents, like rules, you do this and the shackles come off and you go to school. They’re going to have a field day.

Parenting is important. The funny thing is that a kid went to an event called Sunshine Lollipops and Rainbows. See if you know the references in that. Sadly, our counseling department at the school did not and said, “You probably called the faculty advisor.” We said, “You should probably have an eye on this event. It’s off campus. I don’t know what the headlines will be in the paper.” You see it. They face choices all the time and I just feel like it’s about time but it’s also what’s important to them. There’s so many factors that lead to students making the choices that they do. It’s this hard to pin it on one thing that says that’s the thing.

I have to say I’m thinking about the parent who’s sending their kid to college this fall. You and I have been around college students for a long time, but many parents haven’t. They don’t necessarily know what to expect. Who knows? Maybe they hear me do a presentation or you do a presentation. They hear these mental health stats, which are ugly.

One stat that sticks out is 1 in 9 kids. They have suicidal ideation, which no one wants to talk about but that is a national stat. It’s an indicator of how stressed kids become on campus. Brian, we put you on the spot. What do you say to a parent like that who’s worried about their child’s mental health when they go to school? What are some things that they should be looking for and maybe even doing?

Navigating Student Independence, Failure, And Parental Support

There’s a lot of things when it comes to ideation with students and the seriousness of it. There’s that passive ideation that students face too when it comes down to this. They feel a certain way and they start to do this, but for parents, one of the resources. The lead-up to college is having those conversations but practicing independence for their kids. Letting them make decisions. Don’t do it all for them, because the more you do for them, the more they can’t figure it out on their own.

If they don’t succeed or fail, it puts a lot of pressure on them. I have another story. Here we go. I was a student at the University of Nebraska. The same thing. The students said, “My dad wants to talk to you.” I said, “Alright. I can’t tell you something without my consent.” He goes, “Okay. He has a nickname. His nickname at work is called the Nigerian Nightmare.” I said, “That sounds fun. Let’s do this.” The kid leaves. Fifteen minutes later, the dad calls. He’s like, “What did my son do? Why did he fail? Why did he mess up? What’s his problem? I’m going to stop right there.”

I said, “He already knows that he messed up. Your job as a parent is to support him. Be there for them. Help them understand these difficult circumstances and guide them through that instead of shaming them.” This is like Erickson’s shame versus initiative versus shame and doubt. If you don’t foster initiative and you foster shame and doubt from a young age, they’re going to carry that with them. I had to remind him, “You need to be a dad. Parent him, help him and support him. Tell him he’s got this.”

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Brian Keiser | Student Mental Health

 

There’s that pressure that a lot of students have with ideation and feeling like, “If I don’t get this, I fail in life.” It goes to the extreme. How do parents handle it? A lot of it starts in the beginning. When you’re at college and they haven’t done it to this point. It’s almost too late, but it’s not too late. Giving them the ability to be independent and support them on their journey. Don’t check their grades. Don’t pressure them. Let them be.

They might find their way if they feel like they have the ability to thrive versus, “If I fail, life’s going to be bad for me or I’m going to get in trouble. Our dad’s going to be mad at me. Mom’s going to be mad at me. I’m getting kicked out of the house.” There’s a lot of that passive pressure that parents place in their kids that can lead them to say, “I fail. Now what? I give up now.” We’re thinking from the ideation standpoint.

It’s tough, Brian. On some level, most parents realize that if a child fails, they’ve got an opportunity there to use that failure in a positive fashion and succeed. You and I have seen that over and over again. I point that out to parents to say, “If your child fails a class, your child gets put on probation or your child has an issue at school. It’s an opportunity for change.

Here’s the thing. It’s just normal. It doesn’t mean you are a failure. It only means that you tried one thing and it didn’t go. You can step back and assess it and try again. You can interview half the faculty on this campus or any campus. I guarantee you. Most of them had failed something in their lifetime. I’ve had a professor of History interview me for another show and he failed out. He came back a couple years later and figured it out and made it work.

That’s a great point. As adults, if we’re being honest, we’ve all got a story.

Every parent does. We just don’t have social media that documented it back in the day. You probably did a lot of silly stuff when you were in your twenties and formative developmental years that’s not documented on social media.

Thank goodness, Brian. It’s important. Humor is important. Keeping things light. It’s funny to me when a parent sends any kid to college and for some reason, they feel like they have to have it all figured out day one. It’s like, I don’t know that I had it figured out on the last day, a little on the first day. One of the phrases I throw around a lot is, there’s a lot of learning that takes place in college outside of the classroom.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Brian Keiser | Student Mental Health

 

It’s pretty hard for a kid to go to college for four years or longer and not grow tremendously. Some words to keep in mind parents that are reading and certainly kids that are reading as well. Brian, one last thought I just want to ask you. You’re talking directly to a student or a parent. One piece of advice for each.

Day-By-Day: Final Advice For Students And Parents

I say take it step by step, day by day. Don’t think about what five years looks like down the road. I always tell students, “You never guarantee tomorrow. If you had the Book of Life in front of you, I’d be bored if you knew what was going to happen to you.” If I knew I was going to be on this show, I’d be like, “This is cool I guess. I already know what’s going to happen.” You take it day by day. Make your choices. Live up to them. Learn from them. Understand whether they feel right or wrong and keep growing because I always tell students, “If you are eighteen and you start college. I guarantee you’re going to change in four years.” Parents should also celebrate those changes.

That’s the hard part when students come home from college from a break and they’re just a little bit different. They have a different viewpoint. Maybe the identity shifts. That’s not what it. They’re figuring things out. They might come home completely different. As a parent, embrace them, love them and celebrate what they’re becoming, versus what happened to you at that school.

Embrace every step of it. Embrace the learning aspect of it and give everything you can to show up and be present beyond time. Get to know your faculty and teachers. We’re not here to scare you. We’re here to help you. Let the parents say, “Go on a cruise. Forget about it for a minute. You did your part. Pat yourself on the back. They’re going to be just fine.”

I like that. Those are great suggestions. I want to highlight one thing you mentioned in there for kids to hear. That is, staff on college campuses are here to help. Liquid Gold. Go back and see them. Visit with them during office hours. Whatever’s available to connect with them, do so, because a lot of kids, for lots of the reasons we’ve already mentioned, feel intimidated to do that. Listen to Brian. He’s one of many that I’ve heard the same thing from over and over again. Please use them as resources.

Once again, Brian. Those of you that are interested in podcasts, check out “Path Finders and Beach Chair Chats. Some good ones that Brian’s got out there. Both on Spotify and Substack. Thank you so much for your time, your energy and your know-how and everything that you do, Brian. I appreciate it.

Thank you so much, Marc. I appreciate it.

 

Important Links

 

About Brian Keiser

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Brian Keiser | Student Mental HealthBrian Keiser has over 20 years of experience in higher education, serving in various roles at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, Yale University, the University of Bridgeport, and currently Connecticut State Community College. He has spent the majority of his career in academic advising with a specific focus on STEM education, and he also has ten years of experience teaching Psychology.

Brian holds a Bachelor of Arts in Communication Studies and a Master of Arts in Educational Psychology from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. His Ph.D. studies were interrupted by the pandemic, during which time he was conducting research at Yale-New Haven Children’s Hospital in partnership with the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.

Outside of work, Brian enjoys running along the ocean and biking. He also hosts two podcasts: “Path Finders” through CT State and a personal podcast, “Beach Chair Chats,” both of which are available on Spotify and Substack.

 

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Matt Domyancic | Holistic Mental Wellness

Mastering Holistic Mental Wellness From The Frontlines With Matt Domyancic

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Matt Domyancic | Holistic Mental Wellness

 

Holistic mental wellness is more than just physical health; it requires balancing your physiology, psychology, and spirit to truly thrive. In this episode, we are joined by Matt Domyancic, a former police officer, strength coach, and wellness coordinator, to discuss his journey of resilience and his mission to support first responders and veterans. Host Marc explores with Matt why slowing down and prioritizing your inner self is essential in our fast-paced culture. We discuss the importance of self-love, the power of safe relationships in healing from trauma, and how we can all foster meaning and purpose even during our most uncomfortable times.

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Mastering Holistic Mental Wellness From The Frontlines With Matt Domyancic

Defining Holistic Mental Wellness

Welcome to the show. I am here to talk openly about mental health and wellness. I am super excited to be joined by Matt Domyancic. Matt, how are you?

I am doing great, thank you so much.

Thanks for being here. I really appreciate it. Matt is a former police officer, wellness coordinator, strength coach, and advocate for the mental health and well-being of first responders and veterans. Matt may actually do more than I do in his day. I am reading through this and thinking, “He is busy.” During his law enforcement career, he served in patrol, SWAT, peer support, and as a full-time academy instructor specializing in fitness and officer survival.

He later became the wellness coordinator for the Fairfax County Police Department, where he helped pioneer programs focused on strength and conditioning, performance psychology, nutrition, breath work, and stress physiology long before officer wellness became part of the national conversation. At the same time, Matt also worked as a strength coach at Yale and Georgetown universities and served in campus ministry for student athletes.

After a serious medical journey forced his retirement from policing, Matt moved to LA to pursue functional and integrative healthcare, an experience that deepened his commitment to holistic healing and resilience. Today, he provides confidential support and mentorship for veterans and first responders, facilitates outdoor retreats, and leads workshops on mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual wellness. His work also focuses on helping bridge the understanding between the civilian community and those who serve. Matt holds master’s degrees in forensic science, sports psychology, and pastoral theology. Once again, Matt, welcome to the show.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Matt Domyancic | Holistic Mental Wellness

 

Thank you so much, Marc. I really appreciate it.

I am not sure where to start, Matt. You have done a lot, and you continue to do a lot. As we shared a few moments ago, my audience is made up of mostly young adults. Many of them are in college and their parents. For me, when I am reading through your bio and thinking about all the things that you have done, wellness keeps jumping out, the word wellness, and really being able to promote that as you have over the years to so many different people. Matt, big question, but what does wellness mean to you?

Wellness, to me, is very holistic, and I will try to make it concise. I do care about mental, emotional, and spiritual health. However, if you do not take care of your physiology, then you cannot be in touch with your head and your heart, your thoughts and your feelings. You can be on social media, you can be drinking alcohol, caffeine, junk food, listening to podcasts, staying on the surface. Often, you are not very much in touch with your thoughts and feelings, and then being able to identify the difference between thoughts and feelings, and then sort out which patterns may or may not be serving you well.

If you do not take care of your physiology, then you cannot be in touch with your head and your heart, your thoughts and your feelings. Share on X

We need to calm down our physiology, take our foot off the gas, as I say, and then look at how to self-reflect on our thoughts and feelings, and then hopefully have some values defined so we can reflect on our interactions during the day. What people, places, things, and activities are perhaps moving me more towards the best version of myself, or what things might be distracting me from being in touch with my true self and my heart and my emotions, which we do not talk about a lot in this society, because that is woo woo or whatever.

Many people are online acting like it is about being happy all the time, and everybody’s lives are so perfect when the reality is we need to seek to find meaning and purpose even in our adversity and our struggles, because it is coming to everyone. Wellness to me is taking care of your physiology, so then you can be in touch with your psychology, which I am saying generically is your thoughts and your feelings, your head and your heart, and then being in touch with your spirituality, which does not necessarily mean religion. In a nutshell, spirituality is demonstrated by how you are living your life out.

What are the most important values in your life, and are you living them out? What do your relationships look like? We first start with the relationship with ourselves. Do we have self-love, self-care? We can only see others as deeply as we see ourselves, and we cannot give away that which we do not possess for ourselves. What is your inner critic like, and can you still love yourself despite your struggles and your faults? What is your relationship with your family of origin and your closest 3 to 5 friends?

Are those relationships helping you level up to be the best version of yourself, or do you have to do some hard work of creating boundaries around them? What is your relationship like in the community you live in, the school you go to, and then your relationship with the greater good in your life, whether that is a higher power or God, or what are you living for beyond your own needs and desires? Finally, spirituality is what is the framework for you to continue to find meaning and purpose through adversity, through loss, and through suffering.

We need to seek to find meaning and purpose even in our adversity and our struggles, because it is coming to everyone. Share on X

Interesting and wow. You said so much. My brain is going in ten different directions, Matt. I took a few notes, though, because of some amazing nuggets. My audiences know this because they have listened to other shows, but they have heard the phrase slow down that somehow comes up in so many of my conversations with people. I have interviewed directors, I have interviewed athletes, musicians, therapists, you name it.

Somehow, the phrase slow down comes up. Maybe that is because we are just in a super fast-paced world. We are always running a million miles an hour. Those of us like you and me who have lived a few years more than young adults, we have figured out that we do not have to be fast-paced 24/7. As a matter of fact, it really helps our wellness and our health to slow down. It looked like that resonated back to you.

The Power Of Slowing Down And Biofeedback

You had a couple of things. Silence, solitude, immersion in nature, and fasting from technology can be the healthiest things. In our culture, initially, that is going to feel uncomfortable. There are a lot of people out there saying to do hard things. The other ex-SWAT and Navy Seals doing hard things is not doing the workout and the cold plunge, even though I am a strength coach guy with D1 and professional athletes, and I love working out myself. Doing hard things is slowing down. I do not know if people could afford it or if their parents think about an Oura Ring. Are you familiar?

It looks at your heart rate variability. There is a chart for your daytime stress that says restored, relaxed, engaged, or stressed, and it looks at the quality of your sleep as well. A lot of us will go through a day and say, “I am good. I am cool as a cucumber.” The HRV will show that you are really stressed. That also affects your sleep. If you are familiar with EEG, growth feedback, imagine if somebody out there, their parents have the money, you can say that I am calm and I am good. Do not bother me. We ask people, “How are you doing?” “I am okay.”

“Let us look at your heart rate variability.” An even more accurate version is HeartMath. We can look in real time at your HeartMath, HRV, and your brain waves. We can see if your brain is super active and not able to calm down. What you will see is when your HRV, your physiology, has calmed down, you can have more alpha and theta crossover, which is processing unconscious material. A lot of people, if they say, “I am good,” we could go look at your HRV and your EEG and be like, “No, you are not.”

It is a great point. On a really simplistic level, I had the thought just now as you were talking, when did we decide that we had to be comfortable all the time? I feel like, for my patients and me over the years, most of the progress they make is when they are uncomfortable.

The two greatest teachers in life are great love and great suffering. We all need unconditional love with no strings attached or an agenda, wherever we may get that from, and it can be difficult. We also know that suffering and adversity and things that are uncomfortable come along, and we need to work through them. It is almost like emotional, spiritual, and psychological weightlifting. You do not get stronger unless you do more reps, more weight, or less rest in between sets. You cannot get a faster runtime if you just jog at the same pace every day at the same distance.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Matt Domyancic | Holistic Mental Wellness

 

With life, we do not often choose those things. It is nice when we can set goals to work through things, but the things that maybe mom and dad did or did not do that hurt us, or the things that happened to us in our peer groups that did not serve us well in elementary, middle, high school, or college, those are the uncomfortable things to try to recognize, have an awareness of, and find a safe person. At least one safe relationship, which often can be a therapist, and I am all about therapy.

I put it out there, I have been going to therapy for twenty years and spiritual direction for 30. In my world, I find priests who are also mental health professionals. I will talk about my life and the difficult things. I have people that care about me, that hold me accountable to feeling my feelings around the things that are uncomfortable and then asking what lesson I can learn from this, even though it is uncomfortable and painful, and then integrate this story into my life in a manner that I can move forward?

That is true growth, that is true growth. I just want to highlight something you said. I have been in and out of counseling my whole life. I feel like for young adults, there is still this message of like, “I will be good, I am good.” That is not self-love. That is not uncomfortable. That is in the middle, and that is stagnation. I love what you said, find a trusted adult. It could not be a better message to me for young adults out there who are struggling.

Find somebody that you trust and find somebody that you connect with, could be a therapist, could be a coach, could be a teacher, could be an RA, could be an RD, could be lots of different people. The one no-no is nothing, not doing anything. Just keeping that all in because we know by statistics that it just makes things worse. Can I ask you? You were touching on it before, and I want to shoot into it for a minute? You were touching on the topic of fitness. How does fitness fit in, in your opinion, to wellness?

Fitness, Self-Love, And Internal Validation

Everything works together, as I said, the physiology and the psychology. There is more information out there than there has ever been on fitness, nutrition, and taking care of ourselves. However, we are more obese than ever, and we have more mental health problems than ever. I would say that fitness is important. Whatever you are doing today is a little bit more than yesterday, but not looking for perfection because this is another problem. I need to do this or that perfectly, and then seeking perfection causes procrastination.

What little goals can you implement in your life to move more, even if it is walking three times, ten-minute walks a day, anything will lower your blood sugar, calm down your amygdala. There are so many benefits, even now they are calling it exercise snacks. Just like if you are on a 10-minute break, do 20 air squats and 10 pushups, but also do not get hung up. This is where there are a lot of these athletes in the SWAT and the Navy SEALs out there that are saying, do hard things and crush it and work out so hard. You can cover up emotional reactivity.

I have done that, as to where I will lift weights with NFL guys, do Krav Maga, Muay Thai, go to a bunch of yoga classes, and even go to too many Bible studies where things look healthy on the surface that we can obsess over, but we are still avoiding dealing with the demons in the mirror and the skeletons in the closet. We can cover up emotional reactivity with things that even look healthy on the surface. That is my caveat with the fitness out there of everybody emphasizing, “doing hard things all the time” and getting in the cold plunge, which I do, and getting in the sauna, which I believe in.

If you are doing these things for external validation, versus my intention is to grow mind, body, and soul, and take care of myself, and I am not doing this for other people to see me on Instagram or TikTok working out or cold plunging, I am doing this to invest in myself. It is part of my self-love, and everyone out there, you are loved, you are sacred and precious, and deserving of all the love in the world.

We are in a very difficult culture to get that unconditional love because so much of it comes from wanting it from external sources and living from the outside in, versus living from the inside out. I do not want to go too far, but to throw out, a lot of people have what is called a father hunger or father wound, and it is really bad for males. I am not blaming any dads out there. They do the best they can with what they’ve got.

If a man or a young man does not get the nourishment, and I know we just jumped from exercise, but the nourishment and the affirmation to be what is cool is to be who you are and follow your heart and your passions, then they end up seeking it in ways like trying to get jacked or buff or bragging about how much you drank or manipulating and using and conquering women. These are the unhealthy things that happen when you do not have a healthy father, mentor, or elder. I threw a lot out there, but hopefully it makes sense.

That is okay, it is a great point. In a former life, I suppose I could say I coached my son’s baseball team. I counted nineteen seasons, a long time. I would see dads on a regular basis. It did not matter how old the kid was, doing these things. It always bothered me because to me, the question I tried really hard as a dad to ask when a game was over is, “How did it feel? How did it go? Did you have fun? Did you enjoy yourself?”

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Matt Domyancic | Holistic Mental Wellness

 

I honestly did not care who won, who lost, because to me, the memories I got from having those conversations were so much more memorable. Your point is excellent. As dads, I do want to call out dads. I do think it is important that we do that and that we do get parents to recognize that your job is to help nurture your kids. If your kids are being pushed, pushed, and there is very little of that nurturing, they are going to find, to your point, lots of other unhealthy ways to feel good about themselves.

That phrase self-love is so huge because, as you said, I see it all the time in my office. If someone is not loving themselves, it is literally impossible for them to have good relationships. Fitness, just to bring it back, fitness is certainly one really good way. You are really in touch with lots of different wellness things for people to do. I am curious if you were to go back and talk to your college-aged self and give yourself some advice to say, “Let us focus on some self-love. Let us do some things for you.” What would you tell yourself to do?

Train smarter, not harder.

Matt’s Journey: Overtraining And Hitting Rock Bottom

That is a big one. I see that all the time in the gym.

I have had overuse injuries. I started working out hard in sixth grade, started eating strictly in seventh grade, and even though I had a mullet, I was just this big in high school, 5’10”, 230 jacked with a mullet. I journaled, and I meditated on and off in high school. Faith was a big part of my life because of my father, but not an overt faith. I lived an internal faith life, a prayer life, and spend time in nature. I wanted to crush it for football. I got to play college football, but I trained so hard, I did not focus on sleep, staying up late studying, doing three different workouts, thinking that more was better.

I would have trained smarter, not harder. Even though I did contrast therapy in college, cold showers, sauna, I did everything. I had a problem with moderation, and I wish I had invested more in some other relationships. Mentors, elders, and my college football buddies were very important. I reached out to professors whom I wanted to have discussions with about how to grow as a person. I was into that stuff because of the way my dad set things up. I could talk about my dad forever. When I was young, if I wanted to get good at something, there was a mentor. In seventh and eighth grade, he had me working out with the high school football team.

In seventh and eighth grade, he signed me up for high school baseball camps. You are good enough to compete with kids your age. The only way to get better is to compete with people who are better than you. He would send me to a Coast Guard station in Pittsburgh on a weekend, and this guy interviewed me, and then I got home. My dad is like, “You did not shake his hand hard enough, you did not make eye contact here.” My dad taught me a lot of things when I was young, so I naturally tried to work to get better at a lot of things, and not just sports, but I overemphasized football, and I trained way too hard.

In my senior year, I ripped the medial head of my calf in half after I had 21 tackles in three quarters in the opening season game as a middle linebacker. I missed that whole season. Part of it was my calf for sure. I had torn fascia, my quad was pulling the groin off the bone, all from overtraining. I will admit, and maybe I am blessed that this happened at a younger age, I had quit drinking for a year because I wanted to focus on trying to get to the NFL. I had always gone to church and prayed and thought I was doing the right thing, but it was a very immature faith to make me better at football, get me through this hangover, I will never drink again, and help me get a good grade on this test.

I made out with two different girls in one week, which might be common, but it was not based on how my dad raised me. I also used testosterone to try to heal my calf for two weeks. A long story short, I realized I had started drinking with a friend of mine who also got suspended that year for testing positive for steroids. We were drinking out of depression, not to have fun. I would not have known the language back then. Even fooling around with two different girls was like self-medicating pain.

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I had never smoked weed, I did not use drugs, and was a very rigid straight arrow guy. I am like, I am using testosterone. I had powerlifting and high school awards for football, and was great at my level of college football. I am like, “If I get caught, people are going to think in part it is because I have been doing testosterone the whole time.” Also, “I had appropriate guilt for the values my dad and my faith background raised me, and you should not be making out with two different girls and drinking just to mask pain.”

At twenty years old, and the injuries were from overtraining, training way too hard, I realized I had made football my god. I woke up, I threw away the testosterone, quit drinking, quit chewing tobacco. I said, “What is it like to really give your life to God?” It does not have to be for God, for people out there. What is the greater good? What is the greater purpose of your life? What is the greater love that you have to offer yourself and everyone else for the rest of your life?

My injuries and my pain, and then I self-medicating my pain with fooling around, drinking, and then trying to heal myself with testosterone, turned into me hitting my rock bottom and being like, something has got to change, and life is not about doing everything to the extreme. How can I have more balance in my life with my head, my heart, and my service to others?

It is an amazing story, and I think lots of young adults can relate. There will be details in that story that resonate. There are a lot of kids out there who do that, and they just avoid. They know on some level that things are not going well, or they are depressed, or they are super anxious. They could use some help, and they just do not know where to go for it, or they are not looking for it. To your point, perhaps they make the weightlifting room or a sport their main focus.

I try to get kids that I work with to understand, look, no matter how good you are, I have worked with college and pro athletes over the years, that is going to end. At some point, that is going to end, and hopefully, your life will continue many, many more years afterward. The focus on figuring out how to love yourself is huge. Honestly, I think everybody defines that a little bit differently, whether it involves religion or spirituality or fitness or some other type of wellness, you are certainly a person who can speak to a lot of different types of ways in which people have assisted themselves and gotten there.

I am curious to pivot, though, because you have done so much work with first responders, and I think I would be upset if we finished and I did not ask you more about it. I guess I just want to understand some of what, one, they go through, because not being a first responder, I can try to understand that, but certainly very cursory. Two, I really would love for the general public to listen to understand some of the emotional ramifications that first responders endure. Can you speak to that a bit, Matt?

The Emotional Reality Of First Responders

The first responders are immersed in the suffering of humanity in their communities every day. In the police and fire academies and in boot camp for the military, we do not talk about post-traumatic growth. We do not talk about it. You might have some childhood wounds. For people out there who have not heard of ACE, adverse childhood experiences, veterans, and first responders often come from a background of a lot of childhood suffering. For different reasons, they hypothesize that because I suffered, I want to do good for others, or because I suffered, I know how to deal with pain, or because I suffered, I am used to being around suffering, and it is my comfort zone.

Just like a lot of unhealthy friendships and romantic relationships, people form trauma bonds. They are not good for you, but that is what your comfort is because that is what you came from. When you go to war, and I know you asked about first responders, but our combat vets, much like our first responders, very often are getting their unconscious wounds scratched by being around all of this other suffering. What is a role model is to go drink some beer and sleep with somebody you should not sleep with, or buy a new toy, a new motorcycle, a new truck, a new car, and drive hard and ride fast and live very, it is very ego-oriented. It is a ton of self-medicating, numbing, and distracting ourselves from the pain that we are seeing in other people.

When you are a cop or a firefighter in the middle of a scene, you cannot be in touch with your emotions because you are trying to just get the facts. Got to try to save their life or resolve this problem, and I have five more calls pending, so you stuff it. If we were looking at HRV or EEG all day long, the cops or firefighters would get really good at dealing with chaos. That does not mean that your cortisol and adrenaline are not through the roof. It is just suppressing your other hormones. If somebody is interested, operator syndrome is a new phrase that they are using for the totality of all the stressors and how they are affecting your physiology.

These cops and firefighters do not understand how the stress, trauma, and suffering are affecting their physiology, their psychology, or their emotions. They will say, as soon as somebody starts sharing a story with me, first responders and vets, but also civilians to some degree is as soon as I share my feelings or some vulnerability, as long as I am not having a victim mindset where I am not being accountable and responsible to wanting to heal and grow, people will be like, “I am so sorry,” “I am being weak,” “I am being soft,” “That is crazy,” or “I am broken,” or some other derogatory inner critic thing.

Many people suffer in silence when they are dealing with the suffering of others or themselves, and they feel like I do not want to burden other people, or this is my fault, and I am not worthy. This is from Navy SEALs, Green Berets, Division I athletes, and NFL athletes, who also feel that they are unworthy or that they are weak for feeling their feelings. This is really a universal theme in humanity. There is no training for how to deal with your suffering, and you cannot even tell people you love them. I wear a shirt that says, “Love heals,” and there is a longer story behind it, and I sign things off, stay humble, love heals.

I tell people I love them and hug them, and I have since high school because of my father. I have been able to do that, but a lot of other guys, especially people, are awkward with hugs or saying “I love you.” The reality is that the more suffering you have, the more support you are going to need in safe relationships. I do not know if you have read Judith Herman, but I really liked her. Trauma and recovery, healing cannot happen outside of a safe relationship. We cannot heal in the same environments that hurt us.

For the cops and firefighters in your town or your city, they often do not have any training on mental health or understanding of the physiology of stress and trauma. If they do have psychologists, they are contract, they are never around, their chaplains are volunteers, they are never around. They show up after a horrible incident and say, “Are you okay?” Or “Can I pray for you?” The cops and firefighters are like, “I do not know you, and I do not know if you really care about me.” That is like waiting until we have a mouth full of cavities before we go to the dentist as well, wait until you have PTSD, addictions, or you are suicidal, and on your third marriage, and can we help you?

Also, there is something called cultural competency. They will not trust a lot of therapists or the clergy or the peer support people because they are like, “You do not know what it is like to be a real cop or a real firefighter.” Sometimes that may be true. You come in, and you are humble, like whatever your role is, and how can I support you?

Tell me about your life, where our culture is filled with mental health professionals, clergy, spiritual coaches, and influencers who have a solution for everybody’s problem before they even hear their life story. Every one of us is going to have different things that work. There is no one-size-fits-all for how we heal, and we grow, and we do the journey of self-discovery. People who do a lot of talking and tell you how to fix your life or that this is the right way to work out, the only right way to eat, the only right way to approach mental health, that is a red flag.

There is no one-size-fits-all for how we heal. Share on X

That is often, the people who show up to help the cops or firefighters do not have good mental health resources. It is so stigmatizing for them to ask for help, and then even if they ask for help, it is often jumping through hurdles, or it could take 3 or 6 months or even a year for a work comp case to be like, “We really should be responsible for your mental health.” Do you know what happens in 3, 6 months, or a year when somebody is struggling with mental health issues, and they cannot get help?

It is not good.

In that 3 months or a year, it could have started five years ago. This year is the only year-long period when they finally were hurting so badly or got the courage to ask for help, and then it is not even easy to get it. Some places will say you get 3 or 5 therapy sessions. There is no trust in rapport, as you know, which is the most important thing with the therapist allergy. A lot of us humans, in general, when I first meet you, I am not going to spill my guts to you about all the most vulnerable things in my life. I do not know if I can trust you yet. When I hear therapists or somebody say I can do 5 or 10 sessions with you and we will be good, it is “That is not a lot of time to unpack somebody’s life story.”

Navigating Stigma And Finding Trustworthy Help

Their entire life. It is a great point. I appreciate you going through that. I guess I had two thoughts. I wanted to run at you. One is I think one of the things I quickly assessed when you and I began talking today is that we definitely have in common is that we both see life as a journey, and it is an opportunity to continue to learn. We look back on a year ago, but 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and we think, what were we doing then? We are growing, we are open to growth. I have to point out, not everybody is.

To me, I think for young adults to hear that, “You have got two people that have been in their chosen fields for a while, and we are still growing, we are still learning, we are still enhancing, and that is because we have got unique experiences as does every person out there.” The second thing I just wanted to reflect on is that it is funny. I was thinking about, as you were talking, first responders, whether we are talking military, fire, police, and then we have got outside of that. We have got athletes.

We have individuals who get into the working world, corporate America, you name it. To me, when I start working with a young adult, and they are eighteen plus, their journey as an adult, at least, is just beginning. There is so much in front of them that they do not know is coming. The one thing that I found, I guess as a therapist, I am biased to this, but the one thing I have found that is just normalizing, I guess, and stabilizing in everybody’s world is that we are all built very similarly. As human beings, if we take in stress, we have to let it out somehow.

If we have been through traumas or we have been through scenarios, but the vast majority of young people convince themselves. Similar to some of the first responder scenarios you were talking about, I will take it in, and I will be this super compartmentalizer, I will just keep taking it in. At some point, they just hit a wall. The major takeaway, Matt, and I want my audience to really hear this clearly, is that you learn things in life as you continue to grow, and there are certain things you learn and refine and change.

For me, and I think for you too, because I heard it through your words, one thing we both learned is that we all have a capacity and do not run ourselves to the very end, right? Sometimes it is too late at that point. Taking good care of wellness and mental health means finding that resource and finding that opportunity, which could be a group that you are running, Matt, could be a good friend, could be a therapist, but it has to be somebody. These days, we are just taking in too much, and we are not slowing down enough.

Man, can I say a couple of things about that?

Yes, please.

There are a couple of quotes I always use. This is Richard Rohr, a famous spirituality author. Pain that is not transformed is transmitted.

I like that.

The next one I use is, if you do not heal what hurts you, you will bleed on people who did not cut you. If it does not happen now, it will end up being your spouse and your children later in life. I use the terms right of bang and left of bang. Right of bang is waiting until you are overwhelmed by compartmentalizing it until you cannot take it anymore, and that is usually when there is collateral damage, you hurt yourself and other people, or your career. It is like, “Am I going to try to learn how to eat healthy, meditate, work out, find a therapist, trust a therapist, and open up after I blew up my life?” or “Can we do this left of bang?” This is like, brush and floss.

The longer you wait, the harder it is going to be and the more damage you are going to cause to your life. Share on X

If you are eating Snickers and drinking pop soda Coke, depending on where you are in the country, and you do not brush your teeth and floss, you are going to end up with cavities. Whatever life’s challenge is, can we learn to brush and floss? I am somebody who has been eating healthy since seventh grade, working out since sixth grade. I have had mentors and elders, a healthy father. I reached out to clergy who were mental health professionals, and I have been seeing mental health professionals myself for twenty years. Still, when suffering comes, it is so hard.

The things that I have done for performance enhancement, Matt Domyancic knows how to work out hard, he knows how to pray, he knows how to meditate, he knows how to journal, and he knows how to eat healthy. Yet, once suffering, loss, and adversity hit my life that is out of my control, circle of control, if people look at that, that is another good concept. I have still suffered and struggled. I am not somebody who is scared of being sentimental or tapping into my emotions or sharing my story, and it is still not easy.

The longer you wait, the harder it is going to be and the more damage you are going to cause to your life, but that is often what happens as we wait until we just cannot take the suffering anymore. Often, people are so vulnerable that they are desperate for relief, and then they will buy into whatever the magic bullet or the short, quick answer is out there.

Transforming Pain And Trusted Connections

Simply put, though, they do not have to wait. The concept of there being that option early on is really a good takeaway from our conversation. Maybe that is a good stopping point. I would love to put you on the spot, and part of the show is I asked my guests to nominate a friend, a coworker, or a relative, and you had mentioned before the show, Dr. Lusk. Tell us a little bit about Dr. Lusk.

Dr. Jaimie Lusk, part of my Inner Circle crew. She is a military psychologist for the VA. Naval Academy graduate, which, for people out there that do not know, unless you played sports like I did to get into the Air Force Academy, I was really good at football, so my grades probably were not as good as the other people. Jamie got into the Naval Academy legitimately, was really smart, spent time as a Marine officer in the Iraq war, and dealt with some serious challenges there. She got out and did some soul searching, and is an extreme endurance athlete, does hardcore mountain biking, and did bike delivery world championships during the soul searching period of her life.

Went and got a master’s of Divinity with an emphasis in counseling. She has her unique journey, exploring religiosity, Christianity, and spirituality in ways that were not always pleasant. A lot of people have what we would consider religious experiences, where there was maybe hypocrisy, where we were judged or alienated, or do not feel like we were really loved in a belief system that is supposed to be about love and non-judgment. That allows you to grow deeper, and she has used it to get deeper and then became a psychologist.

She understands alpha males in my world. I use her to talk about the Navy SEALs, the Green Berets, the SWAT guys, the ex-Division I and pro athletes. She is also like a heart wide open, a deep lover, humble, and an expert on PTSD and moral injury. Even though she has got this big heart, she also knows research, and if you bring up a topic, she will drop all these different research articles. By the way, she writes a ton of good articles on Psychology Today.

Dr. Jamie Lusk. She is somebody out there in this world of influencers with even mental health professionals and spiritual-type people or mental health advocates acting like gurus and experts and very prideful and egotistical, I believe. You have somebody like her who is not on Joe Rogan or front and center on Instagram doing selfies that I trust more than almost anyone. I need to lean on somebody personally to hold me accountable or to talk about a situation with somebody who is in need.

That is great.

She is awesome.

I will get her contact info offline from you. I look forward to having her on the show. It sounds like she will be an amazing guest. I just want to say, Matt, I know you are super busy, I really thank you so much for your time, your energy, and just your viewpoint. Your viewpoint is really healthy, and you have clearly done a lot of your own work. You have helped a lot of people. You are also from back our way when you were at Yale, so next time you are out this way, call me, we will get a pizza in New Haven, and we will chop it up a little bit, okay?

Excellent.

Thanks again, Matt. Have a great day.

You, too, Marc, appreciate it.

Bye-bye.

 

Important Links

 

About Matt Domyancic

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Matt Domyancic | Holistic Mental WellnessMatt Domyancic is a one man nonprofit primarily supporting the mental health, wellness and spirituality of first responders and veterans. He also does men’s work and enjoys building bridges with the civilian community to better understand the mental health challenges of first responders and veterans who often do not have sufficient preparation or resources to deal with the suffering they are immersed in while serving our country and communities.

Matt is a former police officer that worked patrol, Peer Support, SWAT, full-time Academy instructor for fitness and Officer survival, and was the wellness coordinator for Fairfax County Police Department implementing cutting edge strength and conditioning, performance psychology, nutrition, breath work utilizing early HRV devices, as well as doing research on the physiology of stress during martial arts, firearms, and scenarios two decades ago before most of these issues were brought into mainstream awareness. While a police officer, he was also concurrently a strength coach at Yale and Georgetown universities, where he also did campus ministry for the athletes.

After a serious medical journey, he was forced to retire and moved to Los Angeles to seek functional and integrative medicine. That in it itself was a journey to recover and then have to go through legal battles to justify a more holistic approach to managing his disabilities versus just taking a bunch of pharmaceuticals.

In Los Angeles, Matt was a strength coach and sports psychology consultant at Velocity sports performance working with Elite athletes, as well as a police Chaplain and Peer Support for multiple agencies. Matt confidentially supports veterans and first responders one on one at no cost to them, facilitates outdoor recreation retreats, as well as gives presentations and workshops on mental, emotional, physical and spiritual self-care and well-being. Matt has masters degrees in forensic science, sport psychology, and Pastoral theology.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jay Nazz | Resilience In Music

Finding Your Beat: Resilience In Music With Jay Nazz

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jay Nazz | Resilience In Music

 

Touring life is often viewed through a lens of glamour, but the reality involves a grueling mental and physical balancing act. Developing true resilience in music requires grit, a disciplined routine, and the courage to chase the unknown even when the path is unclear. In this episode, we sit down with Jay Nazz, the longtime drummer for the acclaimed country Americana band Reckless Kelly. We explore his journey from his roots in Connecticut to the bustling stages of Austin, diving into how he maintains mental clarity on the road and why he believes vulnerability is a professional superpower. If you’ve ever wondered what it really takes to sustain a career in the arts, Jay’s candid story on finding purpose amidst the chaos offers a powerful roadmap for your own journey.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Finding Your Beat: Resilience In Music With Jay Nazz

I know I always say this but I am super excited to have my guest Jay Nazz. Jay, how are you?

I’m excited to chat with you, too.

Jay and I have known each other a long time and we’ll get into that in a bit. Jay is a member of the acclaimed country Americana band Reckless Kelly. A group known for its independent spirit, loyal fan base, and powerful live performances. As their drummer, Jay has been a driving force behind the band’s rhythm and energy helping shape their sound both on tour and in the studio.

With years on the road and in the spotlight, Jay understands the pressures that come with performing, constant travel, and sustaining a long-term career in music. His experience offers a unique perspective on resilience, identity and staying grounded while navigating success. On the show, Jay brings an honest voice to the conversation around mental health, balance and what it takes to stay connected to yourself in a high demand environment. Welcome, Jay. I have to say you’re the first guest I’ve had that I grew up with.

That is awesome.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jay Nazz | Resilience In Music

 

Jay and I both grew up in a lovely town in Connecticut. We had some awesome memories as kids. We were just chatting about it a little bit offline. We’ve obviously grown into our careers. You as a musician and me as a therapist. I want to just kick it off and ask. A lot of people may not necessarily know your story and how your musical experiences started. Give us a little sense of your journey.

From Connecticut To Austin: Jay’s Musical Beginnings

My dad’s a musician. He was doing it professionally and then started doing it on the side once he had the family and got a full-time job. When I was fourteen, I started playing drums with him at weddings and a couple bars in Connecticut. When I got to college, I started getting a little burned out from it. My drums went everywhere I went but I never took them out when I was at school and stuff. I played a little bit.

At one point, I was having challenges in college where I wasn’t taking care of the things I was supposed to. I got off track and I’d go back to Simsbury and stay with my parents and try to get my stuff together. I went back and I struggled with discipline in college. I had about five classes left and my friends were going to graduate ahead of me.

I was going to ensure that my parents moved in the fall. I told my friends, “Let’s go across the country.” The greatest thing pulling me there was, I’ve never seen snow on a mountain in the summertime. I was like, “There’s Bend Oregon. There’s these mountains in the background. There’s snow in the summer. Let’s drive out there.” We went out there with my college friends and one high school friend who you know, Mike Healy. He’s in my high school band.

I was like, “Bring your guitar. I’ll bring my drums. Let’s play for tips or something.” We got out there. He got a temp job and he was fine. One day while he was riding his bike, a car hit him. He broke his shoulder. We were shut down. I just got my drums there. We went to a bar one night a couple weeks after this happened. It was an open mic night and I saw these guys setting up the stage. I was like, “Why don’t you have a drummer?”

I asked the bartender, “Can you tell these guys I’m from Connecticut and see if I can sit in with them?” I went up and played a couple songs with them. Afterwards, the bass player came up and he’s like, “Our drummer and guitar player quit days ago. Can you fill until we find somebody else to take their place?” I was like, “Yes. I’ve got my drums. I’ve been here for about a month and a half. I can do that.” In the course of that month and a half, we bonded on so many levels, musically and personally. Eventually, they said, “We want you to move to Texas with us.” This was Bend Oregon where I met them. We got an opportunity to play every night of the week and get better. I was like, “Let me go home. I have to quit college and I’ll meet you guys down there.”

That was many years ago. I had to deliver that news to my parents, which was not easy. I’ll always say I’m blessed because they could have reacted in a way where it’s like, “We did all this for you. This is unacceptable. You don’t know what you’re getting into. You’re not appreciating what you’ve been given. You’re out.” Instead, I could see the concern in their face but they supported me. Because of that, I’ve been able to live a life that’s met my own expectations of what I would say is joy.

That’s amazing. What a cool story from beginning to end. I’m wondering as I’m listening to you. Was there a point where you realized music wasn’t just a hobby? It was like something you needed in your life.

When I played with those guys because it was the first time I was in a situation. I was playing original music. I’d never been around a band that was so professional in a lot of ways yet completely young and crazy but they’re passionate and have purpose. That’s what planted the seed. When I got to Austin, that town was filled with great musicians. I remember feeling uncomfortable when somebody would ask me, “What are you doing?” To say I’m a musician.

I played drums. When I moved to Austin, all of a sudden, I’m a musician now. Everything’s coming from this. It snuck up on me and this is one of those things where I do believe in planting our frequencies in the universe. Somehow, even though I never thought about it. I envisioned that I would always wind up playing drums. Somehow, that opportunity found me.

The Reality Of Touring: Life On The Road With Reckless Kelly

Reckless Kelly is a well-known band. You guys have toured for a long time. Tell us a little bit about life on the road. To a casual fan, it seems glamorous but I bet you it’s exhausting as well.

It is, especially in the early days. We traveled in a 78 Suburban. I don’t think it had AC. There were five of us and two of the window rollers were broken. If it started to rain, you had to pull the window roller off and pass it on the back to roll up his window. You’re sleeping wherever you can and stuff. The beginning is tough. You’re youthful and young enough to say, “I want this bad enough,” and you’re willing to roll with it.

That’s just challenging on its own. Even as we came up a bit and finally got into a van and then finally got into a tour bus. I’ll fast forward to the tour bus thing. Some people like me need a routine. If I get off routine, I’m messy. You’re always on the go. I’m okay with that but also, no one’s going to blink an eye if you crack a beer at 11:00 in the morning or come out of your bunk. The culture is different. That’s a challenge. You got to keep your head above that.

Trying to be healthy and stuff is a challenge. As I’ve gotten older, I have my routine on the road. It’s so strict. Every day, I insert the town. I’m going to show up and still do the same thing. It can be tough and sometimes, there’s not a lot of people at the show or sometimes there is. It might after night. The other thing is, emotionally it’s difficult because we always say, “Even though it’s a Tuesday night, it’s a big fans Friday night to see.”

They come with this energy and you have to rise to the occasion. Every night, you’re on the road. If you do three weeks and you have two nights off. It’s like an outpour of energy every single night. Especially when you get fans that are maybe in the military. You can tell they’ve got a lot of weight on their shoulders. You got to show up to let them know like, “I appreciate how much we mean to you.” It can drain you.

When something is happening in the world and people are freaked out, for a moment, you’re playing a song. You can see them closing their eyes or singing along. It’s powerful. Share on X

I can imagine. It’s a good segue. I talk to my young adults in the office a lot about the healing powers of music and how music can be so soothing and special for people. Here you are. You’re putting it out there. You’re giving a concert, as you said, at times to people that are going through it. I wanted to get a sense from you about the healing powers of music. What are your thoughts?

It’s amazing because some of the fans that I know or I’ll say friends too have a lot of things going on or they’re dealing and struggling with stuff. It’s amazing to me how therapeutic it can be. I can get to that point, but I always have this little filter of, “I wish I could just stop listening to the drums and what he did there.” I have music I can just listen to but for most part, I get caught up. It’s like a process in my head.

It’s an amazing thing. Our last show was the day before everything shut down. They wanted us to play the show and there were people that bought tickets and a lot of them showed up. We played around 9/11. We’ve gotten to war and stuff, we’ve been there to play music for all these major events where people were scared or struggling or uncertain. One day when something’s happening in the world that people are freaked out, and for a moment, you’re playing a song. You can see them just closing their eyes or singing along or whatever. It’s powerful.

You talk to me offline a little bit about playing anthems for some baseball games and having been to many over the years and watched many of the years. The national anthem and concerts that you play touch a chord with people. For some people, that could be the five minutes of peace that they get in their day listening to that one song.

It’s awesome. It’s a real gift that you shared, Jay. Music is such a big part of my world. At the end of the year, I’m always amazed when my Spotify will say how much I’ve listened to music. I’m like, “That are a lot of music.” I’m curious to ask. As a musician on the road with exhaustion, stress and anxiety is something we all deal with and we all deal with differently. I wondered, as a musician, what’s your go-to?

Finding Balance: Self-Care And Musical Influences

I exercise on the road in hotel gyms and things like that. It’s a reset. It’s a moment to have a little space for myself. My endorphins are giving me positive energy to think about things. Also, as I said, I don’t always adhere to this stuff. What I’m eating is a little bit and stuff. Those things make a big difference. Trying to find that space from myself and the band when I can.

Some guys will be on the bus for eight hours and then we pull in. They’ll sit on the bus until showtime or whatever. As soon as that bus stops, I get off the bus and start walking around. I go around town. Maybe there’s a record store and walk to the hotel. I move and have a little time that’s dedicated to me is pretty important.

Great advice. Eating, sleeping, exercising is like that all the time with young adults. It leads me to ask. What’s on your playlist when you’re listening to music? What bands are you listening to?

It’s all over the map. There’s guys that I know like in Texas. In my place here, I got a little turntable and I’m slowly building my collection here. I bought Bill Withers and James Taylor. I got some Tony Bennett. I love George Jones in the morning. I’ll listen to classical music. I am just all over the place. Ryan Adams is an artist that I listened to that I feel like it decompresses me and stuff like that. Also, Neil Diamond.

Awesome. Everybody’s got their interests and their go-to. I appreciate it. It sounds like, for you, that’s soothing as well personally outside of playing. That you’re listening to other people’s music. I imagine you listen to it a little bit differently than maybe the casual fan night.

Sometimes, I do. I try not to, especially like the drums. The drums are in the back of the band but when I listen, they are in the front. One of the stories I love to tell is when I was in high school. I used to listen to Blues Traveler all the time. I’m a huge fan. A couple of those songs I probably listened to thousands of times. When I got down to Austin, I was at a bar and this girl goes, “That’s somebody I wanted to introduce you to.”

For whatever reason, Blues Traveler happened to be at this bar. It was just so interesting. I was so starstruck by the connection to the music and beyond. About three months later, we started keeping in touch a little bit. John came up and played harmonica at one of our shows. It was a very cool connection and stuff. That band was so meaningful to me in high school. To have that moment was pretty incredible.

Navigating Anxiety And Resilience As A Young Adult

It’s funny you should say that. Of all the kids that I work with, certainly video games is a big one, but music seems to be like that in their world all the time. I have kids walking into my office with headphones in. They’re listening to music as I’m walking out of my office. It seems to be laced within their world like it was when we were kids. They’re listening to it a little bit easier than we were then. It didn’t quite like the technology that they have now, but certainly, it’s a big part.

It’s a big part of a person’s world. I’m curious about your thoughts. Adolescents have changed a lot since we were adolescents. The pressure has gone way up. Adolescence, unfortunately, now is way more anxious. The depressive rates are way higher. The suicide rates are way higher, even in the last ten years. To give you an illustration, so ten years ago, suicide was the 12th leading cause of death. Now, it’s number two.

It’s moving in the wrong direction in many ways. Kids are around that. They’re around that all the time. Whether it’s a friend, friend of a friend, contemporary or whomever. That makes growing up challenging. I wondered from your perspective. You’re essentially talking to young adults on this show. If you could offer a piece of advice to a 16 or 17-year-old kid who hasn’t left high school yet, but it’s about to and about to encounter their journey. What would you tell them?

I couldn’t imagine having social media documenting my every step and having everybody’s other everybody else’s step putting my face. I had times in my life where I was picked on or made fun of. I didn’t feel confident and stuff like that. You have to remember that these are the times that build you. They develop you. They create a certain type of skin that you might have. Adversity and challenges aren’t always. You’re getting pushed back. You’re about to launch.

You have to be patient and realize that time heals things. It’s your specific journey. If you don’t pay attention to these challenges and adversities that are put in front of you, you’re going to miss opportunities to grow, become strong, and then eventually, tell somebody else, “I went through this.” My dad told me this story once and it’s probably just a generic story. It’s about a guy that got hit by a car and was unable to walk.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jay Nazz | Resilience In Music

 

He was confined to a wheelchair and they’d ask him, “Would you change anything about that?” He said, “No, because I wouldn’t want to be the person I was then without becoming who I am now.” You think about that. A lot of people’s first reaction is like, “You’ve lost your ability to move around. That’s got to be hard.” I know it is but there’s things that come out of it that are way bigger and way more positive than that one negative interaction.

It’s a great answer. It’s a great piece of advice. I like how you said that. Sometimes kids are recognizing the effect. They’re not seeing the larger picture and that’s what you’re talking about.

I’m always like that because if you’re not careful, especially in a culture, as I was saying where you have drugs and alcohol if you’re not willing to stay the course on certain things. I want to grow. This is something that means a lot to me. I always think about that stuff. This thing about the lobster. Every time a lobster sheds X amount of times in its lifetime, it’s shell. Right before it sheds to get the new shed or shell, it’s in the most pain. We forget that sometimes the hardship and knowing you’re going to be alright, you’re going to miss something that grows. Especially if you don’t stay that course.

I agree. I missed you. I’m listening to your talk and this gentle soul about you. You’ve had it since you were a kid. I remember thinking about it when we were younger. You have a certain way about you that is unique to you, Jay. I can imagine that comes out through your music. I’m curious. The word resilience comes up a lot in my office. It’s like what you’re talking about. How do you balance back from adversity? What you’re touching on is a mindset or a viewpoint. You must have experienced some resilience in your career as a musician. What helped you bounce back? What helped you get through certain things or adversities that you faced?

Overcoming Adversity: The Power Of Therapy And Taking Risks

For one, I’m a huge advocate of therapy. I think it’s great nowadays that it’s more acceptable than it was like in my parent’s generation or whatnot. I like to think about it like going to the gym. You don’t have to stop when you’re in great shape. Having your network of people around you and those resources to use them when you’re confused about what’s going on around you. For me, always believing and having faith that if I continue to seek out what I’m going after. Eventually, I’m going to get it.

As said, keep your eye on the larger picture of what’s going on and what could happen. If you give up, you could give up one hour before everything was about to happen for you. That would be awful. For me, it’s making sure that I’m okay with a little bit of suffering and a little bit of adversity and not being comfortable.

Keep your eye on the larger picture of what's going on and what could happen. Share on X

I’m okay with that. Be okay with reaching out to those people or that network you have to get some guidance and perspective. We tend to think we see everything how it is. Even myself included, I look at certain situations and things that I believe is a certain way, but I know there’s a lot of different ways to look at it. I’m not always right about the data I’m processing to assess that situation.

Well said. I want to use your story for a minute to illustrate that. Thinking back to that night that you’re in that bar and you see that there’s no drummer and you inquire about it. I’m thinking, how many young adults do I know in that position would have said nothing? That wouldn’t have put themselves out there. To me, it seems simple because you’re taking a risk. It is uncomfortable. They could say no but look how it panned out. What an incredible and awesome domino story of one thing leading to another and leading to another and here you are. It led to a career.

Embracing Discomfort: The Role Of Risk And Guts In Success

Usually, it’s more about my personal development than exterior things. I’ll miss a handful of opportunities and each time I miss the opportunity to take a step in a direction. Whether it’s like when you’re younger. You’re talking to a girl or something like that. After a few times of being like, “I should have done it and I didn’t.” You go up and you’re nervous and everything feels like, “I put it all out here now.”

It’s amazing how the more you do that, the easier it becomes like public speaking. All these different things. It’s everyone’s first time at some point. It’s putting yourself out there in that way. You can’t always predict. Sometimes you say, “I don’t want to go to this thing. It’s not going to be what I want or whatever.” You can’t always predict life.

No doubt. You look for those opportunities. Those opportunities can lead to other opportunities. It’s that willingness to say, “I’m going to put myself out there. I’m going to be uncomfortable.” It’s okay to be uncomfortable. That’s how we grow. I’ve seen that over and over again in my career. I’ve seen it in patient’s lives over the years. If we don’t, we flatline. Back to the battle of the bands in high school and how many of those kids dreamed of being a musician. It’s funny, Jay. I feel like some of that comes down to talent but some of that also comes down to guts. Being willing to take that step.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jay Nazz | Resilience In Music

 

I agree. There’s a lot of great drummers that’s so much like me that maybe I didn’t go to that bar that night or maybe I didn’t ask to play. Because of that chance, an opportunity exposed itself. I felt like, “I got to rise out of the cage.” I got to start playing drums and practice more than I ever did in my life. That’s a big part of it. It’s having the guts. If you have some discipline to come up with a plan and a routine to develop your skill, whatever it is. You can do anything.

Part of the show, Jay, is I ask my guests and you can certainly think about it and get back to me on this. I asked my guests to nominate a friend, a co-worker, or a relative that they think would be good to interview in the future. Someone who may have a perspective that young adults would want to hear. I’ll have you think about it. Maybe get back to me and let me know if you have someone in mind. I would love to reach out to that individual and keep the conversation moving forward.

I wanted to say. The funny thing is I’ve been following your stuff and I enjoy it. From everything I’ve said that we’ve talked about, clearly, having people like you being a part of people’s resources and network. How cool is it that, all of a sudden, you were talking to me about participating with you on this and I never would have thought. It’s cool. As I said before, it’s awesome how genuinely you care about your work, people and stuff because we need so much of that these days.

If you have some discipline to come up with a plan and a routine to develop your skill, you can do anything. Share on X

I appreciate it. Thanks, Jay. Right back at you. I can feel the excitement when we talk about music. You and I are lucky enough to have found our passions. There’s so many young adults out there that are searching. I appreciate your time and your energy. I’m sure you’re super busy, so I appreciate you taking some time out. Always brings a smile to my face. I shared that with you. There’s weird things about our childhood that I remember.

I remember that sign on your pool that says, “Welcome to our hool.” I notice there’s no P in there. I love that. It was so funny. That branded in my head. All those fun memories that we had as kids. It was awesome catching up with you. Great to hear about life. Thank you so much for spending time with us. I appreciate it.

Thanks for asking me to chat with you. I enjoyed it.

We’ll talk soon.

 

Important Links

 

About Jay Nazz

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jay Nazz | Resilience In MusicJay Nazzola is a member of the acclaimed country/Americana band Reckless Kelly, a group known for its independent spirit, loyal fan base, and powerful live performances. As the drummer, Jay has been a driving force behind the band’s rhythm and energy, helping shape their sound both on tour and in the studio.

With years on the road and in the spotlight, Jay understands the pressures that come with performing, constant travel, and sustaining a long-term career in music. His experience offers a unique perspective on resilience, identity, and staying grounded while navigating success.

On Normalize It Forward, Jay brings an honest voice to the conversation around mental health, balance, and what it takes to stay connected to yourself in high-demand environments.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Stark | Performance

Leveling Up Your Performance With Kyle Stark

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Stark | Performance

 

Human performance is often associated with pressure. People are pushed to their limits just to achieve the best results. Although such a challenge stretches you to do whatever it takes to succeed, you may also be putting your own well-being at risk. Marc Lehman sits down with Kyle Stark, former Assistant General Manager and Director of Player Development for the Pittsburgh Pirates, who shares his insights on working with professional athletes who are constantly pressured to give their peak performance every single game. He explains what it really takes to develop people, not just performers, into high achievers who have a real sense of identity, leadership, and resilience. Discover why you do not have to sacrifice your mental health just to deliver better outputs and unlock bigger goals, but by simply being yourself and enjoying the ride.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Leveling Up Your Performance With Kyle Stark

I am super excited to talk openly about mental health and wellness with Mr. Kyle Stark. Kyle, so nice to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.

Awesome to be here, Marc.

I appreciate you being here. Kyle is a former assistant general manager and director of player development for the Pittsburgh Pirates from 2009 to 2019. During his decade with the Pirates, Kyle wasn’t just developing talent, he was shaping culture. He helped build systems that supported performance, accountability, growth, and resilience at the highest levels of professional baseball.

What makes Kyle different is that he understands something most people miss. Performance doesn’t come from pressure alone, it comes from environment. Kyle has worked with athletes, executives, and organizations to build structures that both support excellence and well-being. Something that aligns perfectly with what we talk about here. Identity, pressure, and culture, and how that shapes mental health. In this episode, we dive into leadership, identity, resilience, and what it takes to develop people, not just performers. Kyle, once again, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

Fired up to be here. Love this topic, love the opportunity to connect with people and try to figure this out as we’re all on our journey, so thanks for having me on.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Stark | Performance

 

Working With Professional, High-Performing Athletes

I appreciate you making the time. I know you’re busy. I have so many questions for you. Number one, I’m a huge baseball fan, so that is always top of mind for me around player development. As we were talking previously to turning on the recording, players are players, and they’re people. In many cases, you’re dealing with players. You had a long period with the Pirates, and I know you were with Cleveland previous to that. Tell us a little bit about what it’s like to interact with professional athletes. I know it’s a big question, but break it down for us.

Yeah, I think it’s a great start question. A lot of times, when I’ll spend time with organizations and leaders in a wide range of sport, military, business, wherever, one of the stories I like to tell is it was one of the first interactions I had. I started in Cleveland coaching college and then I was working for they were the Indians at the time, now Guardians.

My dream was, “Be at the highest levels, tip of the spear.” early on in my time there, pretty quickly, I got immersed in a lot of different activities with the Major League team, got a lot of access. I was seeing up close and in person what do the best in the world look like? I’ll give you the abridged version, but one of our best players at the time, I was bouncing through the clubhouse before a game, fifteen minutes before first pitch.

He’s having a conversation with one of our coaches, pretty animated, pretty emotional. I make note of it. We go through the game, he gets a couple knocks, has a good game. After the game I ask our coach, I say, “What was up with so-and-so?” He says, “What are you talking about?” I said, “Well, before the game, he seemed pretty emotional, pretty worked up.”

The coach said, “That’s him every night. He’s panicked, he doesn’t think he’s going to get another hit, he doesn’t think he’s very good, but then he gets to a spot where it’s like, ‘I’m going to trust my training, you know what, I’m going to go compete and find out.’” It was just a reminder for me that people are people. We’re dealing with the same things, the same struggles. We’re not wired different in that space and I think from afar we’re like, “They must be different or there must be something unique about them.” No, they’ve figured out how to handle the stuff that gets thrown their way differently.

I appreciate you bringing that up. It’s such a great topic because to the casual fan we see that and we think they’re robots. We think nothing bothers them. Here it is behind the scenes. No, they’re actually wired very similar to us and just on a larger stage, I suppose.

Yeah, it was amazing how many times fast forward and having just witnessed up close and in person thousands of players in their development and to see how many are like, “What’s going on with so-and-so? Well, he had a fight with his girlfriend. What’s going on with so-and-so? They just lost a parent. What’s going on with so-and-so?”

On down, it’s all about this nature of being human. A lot of times we like to say, “We are people before performers,” we’ve got to make sure we’ve made sense of that. The downstream effect shows up in the performance, but who we are as human beings and how we experience this life definitely matters and is a universal truth across all human beings.

We are people before performers. Share on X

I was doing my homework on you and was looking up some of the players you’ve worked with and the Andrew McCutchens of the world, and I came across a name that really got my attention. Gerrit Cole. Probably because I’m a huge Yankees fan. Gerrit Cole is such a fascinating individual and I just wanted to ask without going into any particulars. You used the word resilience, and I’ve seen him come back from injury after injury and he comes back like a machine. I guess I wanted just to ask about the Gerrit Coles of the world, but the resiliency piece of a professional athlete. How would you describe that?

I think a lot of times we naturally think, “Okay, the best in the world have less adversity, setbacks, challenges.” The reality is they don’t. In fact, I would argue the closer you are to tip of the spear, the further you go actually probably the more that you encounter and have to navigate and whatever else. It’s just a matter of, “Okay, well what do I what happens when I get those?”

There’s a book called Antifragile, really good look. It could be looked at individually, but it can look at organizationally. Fragile means that stress and adversity, whatever else, breaks us. The next level that the author argues is really this idea of resilience, like, “It’s not going to break me, I’m going to keep on going.” He argues that the best in the world are actually antifragile, this idea that actually, “I’m stronger for going through the adversity, the stress, the bounces, whatever else.”

I think and I’ve found that the best in the world, they nobody necessarily signs up for the adversity or for the bad bounce or whatever else. However, they respond differently and not just get through it, but really lean into it and know that “This is stretching me, growing me, this idea of constantly trying to get better all the time.” to come back to Gerrit, is a perfect example of that. He’s obsessed with being the best he can be, and so everything that gets thrown his way, he ultimately reframes as a way that’s going to bring out a better version of Gerrit Cole down the road.

How Young Adults Nurture Resiliency In Face Of Adversity

I could talk to you about the Yankees for four hours, but that’s not why we’re here. I’m wondering, you know about that resilience piece, because you’ve had the luxury of working back in college and then up to the pros. You’ve seen basically young athletes grow and go through that process.A lot of my audience is young adults, and most of them are not professional athletes, but many of them have athletic backgrounds. Many of them face different types of adversity. I guess I wanted to ask, what did you learn about young adults having worked with them and seeing them grow like that in terms of adversity?

Yeah, I think it’s awesome because I think you just look at a lot of studies on development and different stages of development and it’s so rapid and obvious. When you’ve got little kids, you leave on a business trip, you come home, it’s like a new creature there. Obviously, as you progress in life, I think the thing that’s interesting for me is the development process is no different. It’s just a lot of times, we end up with some more things that are solidified in us, ingrained in us, wounds, challenges, hurts, whatever else.

We’ve built up some extra stuff, we’re carrying a little bit extra stuff, and so how we respond to that potential learning loss or that potential adversity, there’s some stuff that just makes it a little bit harder for us to navigate. I think the ability for us to be honest about that, recognize where we’re at, but then still lean into that. “This is a development opportunity, this is an opportunity to come out stronger, this isn’t a threat to who I am, this is an opportunity for us to take another step.” the longer we go, the more baggage we have or the more ingrained some habits are in terms of how we respond to that challenge in front of us.

I love how you said that, Kyle. To clarify, when you say “we,” you’re talking human beings. When we face adversity, I love how you reframe that, and I want my young adults to hear that. Those challenges aren’t necessarily roadblocks. Those are opportunities to grow and learn. I think if we reframe them like that, we’re not as frightened of them, and we also recognize that when we come out the other side, we’re actually stronger for it.

I think as just to go one step further as you’re talking there, Marc, I think a lot of times being in the world of development, I think the best organizations, the best performers have a development mindset, meaning that they’re trying to get better all the time. I think if I’m in a performance mindset where I’m trying to perform perfectly all the time, it just can keep us guarded, we don’t take risks, whatever else.

Those who know we have to perform, it’s not that I’m shying away from that, but it’s this idea of this journey I’m on, and so how I go through this potentially leads to even a better performance down the road. We would talk about it with coaches, I talk about it with leaders, this challenge-support dynamic. How does the challenge and the support play off each other?

Challenge meaning pushing me out of my comfort zone, support meaning that I’m okay to do so and take a risk. I think as a leader, I’ve got to create that, as a coach, I’ve got to create that. My wife and I joke around about we complement each other well because she has a bias towards support and I have a bias towards challenge. I see adversity and I’m like, “Good, something good’s going to come out of it.” My wife always reminds me, “No question, however we also have to make sure that individual feels supported as they go through it and not just be like, ‘Great, something hard is coming.'”

Why Your Results Actually Matter

Yin and yang and that sounds like it works well together. It’s probably a good segue to ask you, I guess I’m wondering when you think about the mistakes that some of the organizations make focusing too much on results. Tell me a little bit about that.

I’m glad you asked. This is a topic I’m passionate about. I think how we talk about all these things can give some mixed messages, especially to young people. I think we’ll be like, “Well, it’s about the process, it’s not about results.” No, it is about results. The reality is in professional sports you have to perform, in your job you have to perform, in all these things. It’s not that results don’t matter, they matter a ton. I’ve found that the ones who understand it the best though know, “I can’t control the results, I can control the inputs, I can control the process.”

“I can control the whatever I’ve described as these non-negotiable things I have to do consistently well, and if I do them consistently well enough, the results will show up down the road.” I think when we tell people results don’t matter, it’s a lie because deep down that individual, that performer, that young person knows results do matter.

They pay people for reason, they give me grades for reason, my boss does performance reviews for a reason. When we try to remove that pressure as opposed to redefine how we solve for that pressure instead of maybe giving some other tools to help us respond to that pressure I think’s the more important thing, if that makes sense.

I think it makes a lot of sense and it’s something I say a lot to young adults. You can control your effort levels, you can’t control the outcome all the time. It’s funny, you got me thinking about I don’t know, you name it, baseball player who’s going through a slump, 0 for 20, 0 for 25, and you hear the commentator on the game say, “They’re going through a slump.”

You know they’re working hard. The outcome is not there. Literally, that’s just the game of baseball, literally like a month later, they could be 20 for 25. It’s just the up-and-downness. I could see the easy translation for, again, my audience is recognizing most of us aren’t Major League baseball players.Most of us our outcomes are either grades, as you said, we’re getting annual reviews at our job, whatever the outcome is, we can control our effort level and the outcomes are important. The outcomes do matter.

I think the reality is the reason why we put so much pressure on ourselves is because the results matter. We care about these things. If I say they don’t matter, it’s a lie and then there’s an internal struggle like, “What are we talking about?” As opposed to, “No, those matter.” I think asking ourselves “Why do they matter?” I think’s a separate conversation because I think sometimes, we can get off course with why they matter to us. To say, “Okay, they matter, so what then is our play?”

We put so much pressure on ourselves because the results matter. Share on X

“What are we going to commit to?” Attitude and effort’s an easy one. “What are we going to commit to to increase the chances of that happening and recognize I don’t have to have all the circumstances perfect for me to perform well.” As I face adversity, as I face different challenges, those things are not threats to performance, they’re not derailers to performance, they’re ultimately things that are probably going to make us a better version of ourselves as we go through them and sometimes can help us to be have even better performances.

I remember going to the Hall of Fame with my son many years ago and we’re doing what I think a lot of people do, looking at the plaques, looking at the stats and came across the greatest baseball average of all time. Was it Hank Aaron? The best batting average? He looks at me, he’s like eight, and he says to me, he goes, “He hit he only hit 400.” and I said, “Yeah, that was the greatest of all time.” He goes, “That means that he failed 6 out of 10 times.” I go, “You got it.”

That’s part of what I love about baseball. You go one step further, Nolan Ryan, greatest strikeout pitcher of all time, also had the most walks. Pete Rose, all-time hits leader, also the most outs. The reality is as we’re going through this, if you’re really continuing to push the limits of your performance, that means there’s going to be a lot of failures along the way. How do I respond to that? How’s it making me better? How am I working through those things are all the bigger part of the story as opposed to win or loss, success or failure.

Staying Curious About Human Behavior

When you were overseeing high-talented players, I guess I wanted to ask what were some of the early warning signs when you knew they were struggling emotionally? What were some of the things you might have noticed?

I think probably the biggest lesson I’ve learned in that space is that while people are people, we’re all unique people. All unique individuals. I think as we would talk with our players, I think there’s some common buckets that players would fall into. I think this applies to leaders, humans in general. For some it may show up a little bit more in emotional control. It might show up in some emotional regulation. For some it may show up in some attention control in terms of where they’re focus and what are they focusing on. Are all of a sudden like we’re focusing on things that don’t matter. For some it shows up in their self-talk and how they’re talking about things and more their thoughts.

I think the big premise that I would share with both individuals but for yourselves but also leaders and coaches, parents, we had a psych who, when he worked with our scouts and our coaches, used to always say, “Be curious about human behavior.” When I’m curious about human behavior, I start to notice things. I start to notice, “This individual’s acting a little different. I’m seeing something different.” I think a lot of times we operate in this world of focusing on results instead of focusing on the person in this journey. When we’re curious about human behavior, I start to go I start to notice more things and I start to then probably lead to some more questions, probably some more noticing to be able to figure out, “What’s going on here?” I know something is off with this individual.

Yeah, the original Ted Lasso theory. I like that. It’s a brilliant thought and you’re 100% right. Everybody is unique, everybody has a unique background and everyone’s been taught different things from their families of origin that they grew up in. Just because they’re playing a sport together doesn’t mean that they’re not coming from all different walks of life. That must have been it must have been fascinating to be able to individualize and recognize that. I think baseball in particular has become a melting pot of different cultures over the years. I can imagine some of the coaches and staff probably needing to do their own homework to recognize what is culturally appropriate and what is not.

I think we always we would joke around about like, “Okay, we’re seeing something in a guy’s swing or his delivery.” The reality is that’s not what the issue’s there. There’s something causing that, and can we peel some layers back to figure out what’s going on and be able to identify that? We always said, “Listen to players. They’ll tell you what’s going on.”

I think about this with people, like if I’m listening to my wife, she’ll tell me what’s bothering her, what’s going on. I think a lot of times, we just want to go to the diagnosis and see the fix, it’s like “Just let’s keep listening, they’ll let us know what’s going on.” I think a lot of times, more often than not it would come down to this identity space of, “I’m equating my performance with who I am and I’ve not been able to make sense of that.”

It just occurred to me as you said that. I think in some cases, your role in player development was parental to some of these players. I find myself saying that all the time to parents, “You’ve got to listen more. You’ve got to really hear what they’re saying.” if they’re not, back off and eventually they’ll come to you.

The Atlanta Braves historically back in the day they always talked about having gray-haired coaches on their minor league coaching staffs. Dayton Moore, former GM of the Kansas City Royals, used to always talk about, “The coaches we want or the system, the organization we want is one that you would feel comfortable putting your own son in.”

We would talk about something similar with the Pirates in terms of, at the end of the day, we talked about turning boys into men, we’re growing them up to be to be men, both because we felt like that was a competitive advantage on the field, but then ultimately, we felt like it was a huge impact off the field both short-term and long-term. Our role in that is helping them walk through all those different challenges, make sense of who they are, start to stand on their own two feet, start to be able to handle all the challenges and the eyeballs and the adversity and everything else on them and be able to to stand strong as they navigate all of it.

Those are the gains that people get from being involved in a a good organization, I suppose.

I think we always recognized at the end of the day, we did believe that developing championship men and a lot of the best organizations in the world, the All Blacks talk about better men become better rugby players. Ours was the idea better men are better baseball players. We felt like it’s a competitive advantage. We also recognized that we were developing the next generation of husbands, fathers, coaches, whatever else.

Our commitment was to these guys was it we believed it was going to show up on the field, but we also felt like there were some long-term bigger implications in this. Which is hard because our entire job revolves around winning games, but the ability to say, “Okay, put that in context to free us up to make sure we’re focusing on the things that matter most,” knowing full well we believe that that shows up on field as well.

How Professional Sports Approaches Mental Health Over The Years

You’ve had such a long career in this area, I guess I’m curious from when you first started to to recently, how has professional sport treated things like mental health differently over the years?

It’s fascinating. When I first started with Cleveland, I think Cleveland was maybe 3 or 4 organizations that had full-time psychs dedicated in this space. Baseball always had EAP for some support off the field, there were like 4 or 5 organizations that had performance psychs dedicated to helping you on-field performance.

When I started in Pittsburgh, the numbers weren’t that much different. Over time, we saw an explosion of performance psychs flooding the market in professional sports. I think there’s some good to that, I think there’s some unintended consequences to that. Sport has swings pendulums. They do something, they swing the pendulum they’re like, “Alright, that didn’t work, we’ve got to swing the pendulum back.” You see a wrestling match going on with sports now with, “Okay, we’ve flooded the market with performance psychs professionals, that’s hitting some things, not hitting some others, we’re still wrestling with the same problems and challenges.”

It’s easy for us to say mental health is completely different, we’ve got to create a separate bucket for that and we’ve got to flood it with professionals in that space. I think organizations that understand that we’re dealing with human beings, that all these dimensions we can’t split up into components, it’s a whole person. How the physical impacts the mental which impacts the emotional which the spiritual impacts all these.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Stark | Performance

 

Understanding those things and then understanding how do we have not a million resources to throw at a player, but do we have a consistent approach? We have resources, we have expertise. More than anything we’re helping the coach who’s with the player day to day. When we realize, “ this is beyond our beyond our skis, we need to bring somebody else in,” I think the coherent, unified, holistic approach the organizations that are doing that, I’ve found, are doing it the best.

I will say that sport continues to recognize the need, throw more resources at it, and I don’t know that generally we’re doing it any better. I think part of it’s in all honesty because the expectations, the pressures that our young people are feeling have never been greater, and I think parents, coaches, everybody else has to look in the mirror and say, “We’ve got to own some of this,” and/or own how are they processing and navigating dealing with it, as opposed to trying to remove it.

I think you make a great point. Just to parallel, suicide unfortunately is the second leading cause of death in young people these days. As opposed to ten years ago it was number twelve, I think, so it’s moved in all the wrong directions. We know certainly in the last couple years there’s been some real public professional athletes that have taken their own life. When those things happen, I think the positives that come out of that is a spotlight on mental health.

You have athletes coming out and talking about their own mental health and trying to normalize it’s really what we’re doing here is trying to normalize the conversation such that we all put our pants on the same way and it’s we breathe the same air and one of us just happens to throw 95 and one of us doesn’t.We’re all susceptible. I think that when it comes to depression, anxiety and the pressures of the world, I’m sure those are things you’ve seen with many athletes you’ve worked with over the years.

I think there’s an element of, to some extent, we probably didn’t know any better. We’ve labeled some things, we’ve identified some things in some cases. Again, I think where we talk about the pendulum swinging, whatever else, I think as you’re touching on, when I got hired in Pittsburgh, we beefed up what we were doing on the mental side of the game. The guy we hired, Bernie Holliday, was excellent.

There are a lot of tools and ways to navigate human life and still pursue excellence on the journey. Share on X

Bernie used to always say, “Championship thinking’s 24/7. This isn’t about a performance thing, this is how are we thinking all the time.” When we were first doing this because baseball was very much a, “You’re weak if you do these,” so whenever I went into town in a clubhouse, I’d say, “How many of you guys have had a doubt at some point in the last 24 hours?” Everybody raises their hand.

I said, “How many guys have had have not composed their emotions, have not had good emotional regulation at some point in the next last 24 hours?” Everybody raises their hand. “How many guys had a hard time focusing on what mattered most?” Everybody raises their hand. I said, “Yeah, this is called being human. We all are navigating this.” We’re providing some resources to help us do it even better, and this will show up with in our relationship with our spouse, it’ll show up behind the wheel as I’m driving. Great place to practice our mental health is driving.

It’ll show up between the white lines on the baseball field. Trying to, again, recognize this is called being human is what this is. It’s not you’re jacked up, there’s something wrong with you, whatever else. It’s called being human and there’s a lot of tools and ways for us to navigate this and still pursue excellence on the journey.

Survive Everyday Challenges Through Coping Skills

One of the buzz phrases that is used a lot in my field is coping skills. I guess I’m wondering when you think about the athletes over the years you’ve worked with, what are some of the ways in which they cope? What do they do to reduce stress?

I’ll never forget one of the first lessons I learned working with a guy in professional baseball. He said that the best in the world, Big Leaguers, are ultimately just the best copers. They’ve figured out a way to navigate a hurdle they have. That could be physical, that could be emotional, that could be mental, it could be whatever else. We’re all flawed people, we’ve all got a limitation, and it’s just the best in the world figure out a way around that better than other people. As I think about some maybe some buckets of coping skills, I think those who have an outlet or something beyond the game is a huge one.

I just see this more and more as more and more pressures happen on kids. It’s like their whole day is scripted. Young people, it’s like sunup to sundown. When I’m not doing something, it’s really an escape as opposed to a productive healthy coping something else to go engage and do. It’s just really trying to, “I just want to escape this world I’m in,” as opposed to whatever.

I think that’s one. We used to always tell our guys, “Every you got to believe in something, you better understand what you believe in to help provide some context and some understanding of some of life’s bigger questions.” I think that’s a part of it. One of the things I joke with a lot of people, I’m like, “If you have purpose and connection, it takes care of 99% of our issues. Have I revisited why I do what I do and I’m consistently coming back to that sense of something bigger than just the performance? Am I connected?” Investing in relationships.

That’s not about quantity, although for some it is, but it’s like, “Do I have some quality relationships where I care about them?” We did a we had a community service program that was mandatory, and people always used to bust my chops, they’re like, “Well, if it’s mandatory, are they really serving?” I’m like, “No, they we need to give them a specific outlet for this to happen.” Hopefully over time, they’ll find a cause that means something to them that will be more than just the mandatory minimum hours. Again, getting our focus off ourself, going and serving someone else, being huge coping mechanism for our guys.

For some guys it’s physical, it’s a workout. For some guys, it’s not as much with baseball, but it’s to get outside because I think you’re connecting with nature, you’re connecting with something bigger in yourself. The breathwork is a simple one but a powerful one. Physiological benefits, mental benefits. Those are a handful of some bigger buckets we used that I’ve seen guys incorporate, both in baseball but also outside of baseball.

You had me thinking of some of my young adults that I work with that are on their way to playing Division One sports. As you mentioned, we’ve gone from when I was young to like playing baseball 1 season to like it’s all 4 seasons now.It takes over because they finish school and they go to their trainer and then they go to their nutritionist and then they go to practice and they go to. What I’m hearing you say and I think it’s really important my young adults hear this is creating those coping skills is really all about recognizing how important they are.

You can have all the talent in the world. If you don’t have those coping skills, something is going to take over. We’ve seen it over and over again with professional athletes who are super talented. I appreciate your answer and I really hope that my young adults take you on and pick apart that answer and maybe pick one or two of those things to say, “I have this interest, I should really develop this interest,” really creating a purpose for themselves. Really spot on.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Stark | Performance

 

There’s a guy I do some work with that talks about having a third thing. You’ve got your professional, you’ve got your personal, you’ve got your work, you’ve got your family. What’s your third thing? What’s that third thing that gives you life that is probably more of a sense of play or fun, without another element of our life having tons of pressure with it?

That allows us to not escape this pursuit of being human, but to maybe experience human in another way that doesn’t deal with, “We’re going to add more pressure, more stress, more in another aspect of your life.” I think it just gives us some perspective of, “I am more than the thing I do. I am more than the grades I get, the performance I have. I am more than that.”

It’s a great point and I would encourage the young adults reading, I’ve seen young adults that are ballplayers, for example, get cut. They go from like 24/7 to like, “What do I do now? I don’t have a purpose. I don’t know what to do.” I’ve treated those kids and those kids are really lost.I think having that balance, you work with the top athletes in the world and I think having that balance created allows those individuals to be able to get through probably some really tough emotional struggles that they might endure. Again, humans are humans. We all have our challenges and I think the topic of coping skills is really important.

From Pittsburgh Pirates To Mental Health Awareness

Let me shift to one other thing and just ask because as a family therapist, I’d be upset if I didn’t ask you this. I was trained in systems and I’m fascinated by the way organizations work and teams work and obviously there’s a parallel there to family. I wanted to ask how’d you get into this work? What was it that brought you to this work?

Yeah, so I, like most, dreamed of being a big leaguer and unfortunately, my career ended way sooner than I wanted it to. Just was consumed with baseball and, probably more than anything, I was consumed with the game, I was consumed with being the best in the world, wanting to be at the tip of the spear and so it was “Okay, well Major League Baseball is that.” I did my education, coached in college but knew I wanted to work in professional baseball. I wanted to run an organization and be able to build an organization that could consistently perform at a high level. Now along that way you have different roles that potentially changes some perspective on that.

Ultimately, I’m fascinated with human performance. How good can someone be in whatever field, in whatever endeavor, as a husband, as a father whatever. The more I did this, the more I became consumed with, “How good can we be?” not just the individual pursuit, but the collective pursuit. Teams, organizations, and creating the conditions and the environment that increase the chances of those things happening.

Our brain comes with us everywhere we go. It’s one of those things that I’ve seen it organizationally, I’ve seen it athletically, I’ve definitely seen it individually with people. Your work touches it all and I appreciate the commentary on this because to the casual fan, number one, we don’t see any of this. I think too to the young adult reading, it’s really helpful for them to understand trajectory-wise. These players were all young adults themselves at one point and many of them still are. Their struggles are very similar, they’re just on a different stage. I think if we can make our way through life recognizing “We’ve all got our challenges” and being a good friend to someone when they are challenged is important, and you’ll get that in return when it’s your turn to have a challenge.

As you’re talking Mark, something to throw at, one of the things I noticed over time, the best I’ve ever been around, and when I say the best, I’m not talking about like the best performers necessarily, but the ones who probably got the most out of their potential, that’s what I would consider the best I’ve ever been around. They fall in love with the journey.

The best performers are those who got the most out of their potential and fell in love with their journey. Share on X

My wife and I joke around because I’m a destination guy, she’s always the journey, “You’re missing things by just being obsessed with the destination.” We’ve gotten to a spot where we respect that it’s both, the journey and the destination. I think what I’ve noticed is that they are obsessed with this journey, this pursuit, and get to a spot where, “I’m okay knowing I’m never going to get there.”

I’m okay with that. I’m going to learn things about myself, I’m going to be a better version of myself as I’m going through all this. I share all that in terms of the analogy I’ll use a lot of times with, especially with athletes, is I think we always are consumed with reaching the mountain top. We want to climb the mountain, be at the mountain top.

That was my pursuit as I went into Major League Baseball. You get there and you realize, “Now what?” What ends up happening is if my whole thing’s about getting to the mountain top, number one, I probably don’t experience things on the journey the way I need to to pay off down the road. The other thing is once I get there, then I become hyper-protective and defensive of trying to stay there. “I’m afraid to come off, everything’s a threat.”

The reality is, once we climb a mountain, we realize there’s another mountain out there that’s even better and bigger that I didn’t even know of. Look how far I’ve come, I can appreciate how much progress I’ve made, so then we can come off and go climb another mountain. I think that’s the best I’ve been around, recognize they are mountain climbers, we are climbing mountains, and that journey’s never going to stop, as opposed to, “I need to get to the mountain top.”

I think that’s where sometimes even just that reframe helps free us up in terms of the pressure of having to be there or stay there or whatever else. The reality is if I get there and I don’t want to come off, I actually can sabotage my next journey because I get pushed off or whatever else, but instead of willingly engaging and going to the next one, it frees us up in a different way.

I love how you said that. I think we all have our journeys in life, we all have our mountains to climb and it always bothers me when I see someone climbing the mountain and not appreciating that opportunity to do so. Some of us reach the top and some of us don’t. I think life is just filled with lots of challenges and lots of rewards. I think anyone who’s been a parent realizes that, that you get your good moments and your tough moments.

You said it best and I think for young adults to hear that, it’s important because I think a lot of times, they’re just getting barked at by coaches. “Win games, stats this. Grades this, grades that.” It’s like you’re an athlete, you’re a collegiate athlete, enjoy the, enjoy the journey.

I think on top of that is sometimes like you said, not all of us reach the mountain. Some of us realize, “I’m climbing the wrong mountain, I need to go climb a different mountain.” I think that’s part of this whole journey as well. If I’m on the right mountain, I believe everybody can reach that mountain top to then say “There’s another one to go climb.” I think it’s hard. I think it’s easier said than done looking back than when you’re a young person in this pursuit. I do think that we’ll talk all the time about the best in the world are present more often than others. They really are maximizing the moment in front of them, which I would argue means they are enjoying and experiencing and appreciating the moments differently.

Who Kyle Roots For Right Now

Last question, nice and easy one for you. Who does Kyle root for these days?

Kyle roots for people and I would say an appreciation for organizations that are doing good. When you work in the business, probably the fan side of you gets squelched and it gets removed, and so that’s probably been gone for a long time. What I’m a fan of are individuals on this journey, and so there’s some friends, there’s some appreciation from afar. You see some organizations doing some things really well and there’s an appreciation for it. That’s not just sport, that’s all facets of life. I think who am I rooting for? I’m rooting for individuals that commit to this journey and i’m, and I’m rooting for groups of people who want to team together to do it special is who I find myself rooting for.

The best people in the world are present more often than others. They maximize the moment in front of them and appreciate moments differently. Share on X

Very political answer, but I like the answer. It’s a good answer, Kyle.

Honest.

I appreciate it. I do as well. I think it’s really to me it’s thrilling to watch an organization pull it all together and work together and do their thing and, as you mentioned get to where they want to get to. I appreciate your thoughts on this.

We got some guys that were absolute knuckleheads when they were 18 to 22 who now have 3 kids and are at the tip of the spear in Major League Baseball. We also have a ton of guys that are impacting organizations in the corporate space, military space, so it’s really fun to see these guys as men going out and impacting their families, the organizations they’re in, and it’s really cool to see where they’re at now.

Discussion Wrap-up And Closing Words

They’re succeeding, they’re smiling they’re living life. Nothing wrong with that. To know that you might have had a small hand in that somewhere, Kyle, that’s awesome. Well done.  I appreciate you spending the time with us. I know you’re busy and you offer a perspective that I’m interested personally in, player development and just the system piece of where you come from and what you offer to organizations I think is really amazing. I’m really hoping the spotlight of mental health continues to be out there, not only in businesses, in the military, and also in athletic organizations because as we started our conversation to come full circle, “People are people.” It is what it is.

I appreciate it, thanks for what you’re doing, Marc. If I can ever help you or any of your readers, don’t hesitate to reach out.

Thank you so much, Kyle.

Thank you.

Take care.

 

Important Links

 

About Kyle Stark

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Stark | PerformanceDuring his decade with the Pirates, Kyle wasn’t just developing talent — he was shaping culture. He helped build systems that supported performance, accountability, growth, and resilience at the highest levels of professional baseball.

What makes Kyle different is that he understands something most people miss:

Performance doesn’t come from pressure alone.

It comes from environment.

Kyle has worked with athletes, executives, and organizations to build structures that support both excellence and well-being — something that aligns perfectly with what we talk about here: how identity, pressure, and culture shape mental health.

Today we’re diving into leadership, identity, resilience, and what it really takes to develop people — not just performers.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

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