Category Archives: Podcast

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Ridley | High-Functioning Addiction

 

The silent battle of shame and secrecy behind high-functioning addiction is exposed as Emmy-award-winning journalist and podcast host of The Tangle, Kyle Ridley, sits down to share his truth. Joining host Marc Lehman, Kyle reveals how his bulimia—a struggle often compounded by the stigma against men being vulnerable—consumed his twenties and made him a prisoner in his own home. He walks listeners through the critical steps of his lifelong journey of recovery, from the terrifying moment of intervention to embracing therapy and finding the courage to talk about his anxiety and fear of rejection. This conversation offers powerful lessons on how building a solid foundation of self-acceptance and community can finally break the cycle, leading to the confidence and grounded happiness that only comes from deep, ongoing healing.

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High-Functioning Addiction: The Silent Shame Of Male Bulimia And Recovery With Kyle Ridley

I am so excited to be joined by Kyle Ridley. Kyle, how are you?

I’m doing well. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for being here, Kyle. This is fantastic. Kyle is an Emmy Award-winning Journalist, producer, writer and podcast host known for his thoughtful storytelling and authentic conversation. After building a career in broadcast television producing live and featured programming, Kyle transitioned into the podcast space. Where he’s created The Tangle with Kyle Ridley, a show centered on meaningful dialogue with creatives, entertainers and leaders about purpose, growth and the human experience. I can’t wait to hear all about that, Kyle.

Through his work, Kyle has developed a reputation for going beyond surface level interviews, creating space for honesty, vulnerability, and connection. In this episode, Kyle brings his perspective from both sides of the microphone as a media professional and as someone deeply interested in the stories that shape who we become. Helping move the conversation forward around mental health, resilience and real life behind the scenes experience is Kyle. Once again, welcome. Thank you for being here.

I appreciate it. Happy to be here.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Ridley | High-Functioning Addiction

 

From Emmy-Winning Producer To Finding Hope In The Human Experience

I suppose a good place to start is to tell us about your show. We’d love to hear more about it.

It’s called the Tangle with Kyle Ridley and I started it in June of 2025. It came on the heels of working in broadcast for about a decade. To have some background on my career. I started in print journalism as a teenager working as a freelance for the local paper. When I was in high school, I was also editor of my school newspaper and then did freelance journalism throughout my twenties. More arts, entertainment reporting while also working in like the government contracting space. It was a side gig.

When I was 30, I went into broadcasting because I always had a passion for that. I interviewed Hoda Kotb during my freelancing days. She wrote a book called Ten Years Later where people transitioned to new careers or just lives not based on trauma or something like major happening because they had a passion that was unfulfilled. I told her I felt like she was speaking to me with broadcasting. She gave me the push to go for it because I felt at 30 that I was too old to start over but you’re never too old.

I started networking and landed on local TV in the DC area. For the past few years, I was doing morning shows. It’s those 3:00 AM wake ups and reporting on all politics and crime in DC and the hard news stuff. My favorite part was the lifestyle stuff. I was always in charge of things like the 9:00 or 10:00 AM hour, which if you think about today’s show were GMA. It lightens up. You get the news you need and then we have fun, comedy, food, drink, and music. That type of stuff.

I started my show basically because after the election, I don’t want to go through it again. It was wearing on me, the grind of morning news and the hours. I started the Tangle with Kyle Ridley in 2025 and it’s a long form interview show mainly celebrities. It’s all people that I booked. I book, edit and produce it myself. When you’re a producer on TV, you’re prepping your anchors and doing all the research on these guests that you book. I booked over 15,000 segments in my years because we’d have 5-6 guests a day. They’re on the air for 3 to 4 minutes and you can never have enough time to get to all the questions.

I wanted to do these deep dives with these people that I was interested in but never got to speak with. Now, I’m able to do these 30-45 hour long conversations with these people that I am passionate about and get to the underbelly of their upbringing, career and their struggles. One thing I ask all my guests or two things is what they’re currently tangled in, they’re loving, immersing themselves in, embracing, and then something frustrating that they need to get untangled from and how we can work through that tangle.

I love it. I’m curious. You’ve worked with so many different people and so many different personalities. What are some things that you’ve learned about people along the way?

With everyone, we all just want to feel seen and we want to feel heard. When people are given a platform to share their stories, they are pretty open to it. That was my favorite part about TV. It was booking these guests. You get to meet fun celebrities along the way but the majority of the people are just community members and people that have a story to tell that are having a hard time getting noticed.

We all just want to feel seen and heard. When people are given a platform to share their stories, they are pretty open to it. Share on X

I was always happy to bring in local moms. I created a show called the Mother’s Side at one point, where it was like a panel of moms coming in to discuss the highs and lows of parenting. A lot of nonprofits and DEI. We talked a lot about that during the election and tried to give them a voice as they were being silenced and local Black owned business owners. I think everyone has a story to tell. When you reach out and give them a platform, they’re pretty much an open book, most of them.

That was my favorite part. Also, being fascinated by the human condition. One thing that I always ask my guests as well is, how they are maintaining hope because we’re in such heavy times now. It seems like it just gets heavier and heavier. In asking them how they’re maintaining hope also gives me more hope. Even though I’m a hope-filled, half glass full person, I can always use a little dose because a little extra dose of hope. It’s a little dire out there lately.

We all. It is a little dire. That’s a good way of saying it. I love it and I love the concept of, what’s a person tangled in and what are they passionate about. I’m curious to ask you your own question. What are you currently tangled in? What are you passionate about?

I’m tangled in the show and trying to start over after being in the news for many years. I don’t have a full-time job, so I’m trying to make it on my own now. It’s increasingly turning more into a gig economy which has its highs and lows. You’re always searching for your next gig but I think working for yourself is a scary tangle and a hope filled tangle as well.

Putting myself out there also in 2026. I am starting to share my story for the first time because I’ve always been behind the camera, producing and researching. I never felt I was meant to be in front. Taking that leap and being on shows. I’ve done a couple TV shows and let people know my story because I do have a story to tell like everyone. It just sometimes takes a couple decades to feel comfortable and maybe confident enough to share your story. That’s where I’m tangled in. It’s putting myself out there and taking that leap.

I have to say it’s amazing what you’re doing and I love that. It takes a lot of guts to get in front of the camera. Behind the camera is a whole different story, but in front of the camera is an opportunity to create change. The whole reason I created Normalize It Forward for people is to get a sense of you’re not alone. Also, everybody can learn from each other and their own experiences. Maybe that’s a good segue into jumping into your story, Kyle. Tell us a little bit about your story.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Ridley | High-Functioning Addiction

 

We’ve covered my career. Do you want to know about some struggles that I’ve had?

The Lie Of Secrecy: How Shame Fuels A Life-Consuming Eating Disorder

Many of my readers are young people and I know a bit about your story already. I think that for so many of my young people, the struggles that they’re having, be it depression or anxiety or eating disorders or bipolar disorder or addiction or any of those things. Many of my young people that I work with haven’t been diagnosed. They don’t have labels, but they just don’t feel right. They’re just off their game and they know something’s going on. To me, you giving us a sense or even a little bit of a summary of where you’ve been and where you are will help them understand a little bit more about their own experiences.

That’s what I’m trying to work on in 20263 as well because only good can come from you sharing your story. Many people are scared to step out or scared to reveal anything. A lot of that comes from shame. When you release that shame and share your struggles, it’s only going to help others because someone is going to identify with it. One thing that I’ve learned is that there’s a difference between privacy and secrecy.

Privacy is oftentimes out of respect for keeping something to yourself for your own purpose or to help someone else for their respect. Secrecy is often shame written and covered in secrets and lies. Determining the difference between secrecy and privacy over the years, I realized that I was holding a lot of secrecy. I struggled with past addictions. More specifically eating disorders. The roots of it started in childhood and teen. In my twenties is where it became a full-fledged life-consuming addiction.

My specific struggle was bulimia. If you want to stem from childhood, I grew up in a family in the ‘90s, everyone was on a diet every week. I don’t think the world knows much about nutrition. Remember, we were all scared of fat and everything was SnackWell’s and those Olestra chips, Wow chips and Atkins, SlimFast, and Jenny Craig. Every week, you were trying something and I tried them all and the lemon, water, cayenne and pepper diet.

I got a first taste of people feeling uncomfortable with themselves indirectly through family. I have family members who struggled with eating disorders. Though, they try to hide it. Children are very in tune to something is different or maybe comments that they make about their body that they’re not aware of how it’s impacting a kid. I was also a chubby or husky kid. I don’t like those terms but that’s how I felt. In middle school, it’s pretty grueling as far as bullying goes, especially in the ‘90s. We’re a little more aware of it now but I know it’s still an issue.

I was also a gay kid. Add that on, chubby gay kid in school, the outcast. You just want to fit in. I remember experimenting with not diets but bulimia in my teens. It was maybe once every six months, I would make myself throw up. It didn’t seem like an issue because it was so rare. Something so simple and so sporadic can come to something so dangerous, overwhelming and consuming very fast. That happened to my twenties where I went on another one of those crash diets and added working out on top of it. Not eating a lot, working out and then by the end of the week, I would want to treat myself to an order of pizza or multiple pizzas and breadsticks and thought, “This is my cheat day. I’ll binge. I’ll purge.”

The combination of just being in your early twenties, being overwhelmed and not knowing where you’re heading career-wise or relationship-wise, I spiraled. Once a week became, “I’ll just do this quick fix again.” I’ll run to the store and buy everything I can see in sight and go home. Eat it and get rid of it. It became a daily habit for about seven years pretty much all throughout my twenties. It was a life of secrecy. No one knew. You get good at lying. You get good at hiding.

Breaking The Bonds Of High-Functioning Addiction

First of all, thank you so much for your honesty. I appreciate it. I want to jump over that. To be able to recap your experiences, it takes a lot of guts, confidence and willingness. I appreciate all of that and so much of what you said. The middle school role, I’m sure my readers can identify with. I also think that eating disorders for my readers are filled with secrecy. The behaviors themselves often start quietly. There’s a lot of shame connected to it.

The formula for a secret is embedded in it. Interestingly enough, you touched on this. It starts off as a coping skill and unhealthy coping skill but a way to reduce stress. There’s many unhealthy ways to reduce stress like pot smoking or drinking or any of those other things. It feels like, “I got through that moment and we’ll see what tomorrow brings.” One day leads to another and leads to another. If I’m hearing you right, it sounds like your twenties were a real struggle. I’m wanting to hear from you a little bit around the concept of how you break the bonds of that addiction. That sounds like a super strong addiction and probably required a lot of work.

It required a lot of work and I think the work is life-long. As you say you’re in recovery life-long. I don’t ever consider myself recovered or healed wherever it is healing. Unlike drugs or alcohol, I touch food every single day. It’s something that you can’t quit. I’m fully aware every single time I put something in my body, what I’m consuming. I don’t think you can never get rid of that because part of recovery is education and about nutrition.

People need to understand that recovery doesn’t mean, “I’m going to eat whatever I want whenever I want and feel fine.” I know there’s certain things that if I eat, I’ll feel sluggish. It’s a choice, though. It’s a conscious choice. I can make that choice to be like, “I want to indulge in this. I won’t eat too much because then I’ll feel this way. Maybe I’ll feel a little bad about myself but I’m not going to beat myself up. I’m not going to purge. I know I can get back on track.” It’s all about feelings. You’re more in touch with how you feel.

When you’re addicted, you are just like drugs or alcohol. You’re yearning for that next fix and it’s very similar feelings. You go through withdrawals. There’s a certain time of day, at least for me, I should be eating now. I need to go find an excuse so I can go binge and purge. There’s secrecy. There’s secrecy in hiding food and in making excuses. Why can’t you go out? I was not social. Something you’re clients and college kids, I’m sure can identify with because I was in college when it started very high functioning.

You need to open up to one person and be able to share your struggles because that’s the first step in admitting it to yourself. Share on X

I had a good job. I went to college full-time and worked at the same time. I graduated with a 4.0. Very high functioning. You say it’s a coping mechanism. It was my coping mechanism. It was my excuse. It was my excuse for everything. It was my reward and my excuse. I had a bad day, I binge and purge. I got an A plus on a test, I binge and purge. That’s my reward. Someone is stressing me, I binge and purge. It’s all you live for and it’s that next fix.

It’s also expensive. I was married at one point when I was struggling. The person did not know for the first two years of our relationship. That meant binging in restaurants, consuming stuff when he was not home and then purging and all the scraps of food down the trash chute or rappers. Eating in my car. It’s shame ridden. It’s not private. It’s a secret. As far as recovery goes, it didn’t start until a mini-intervention in my late twenties right before I turned 30 with my mom and my ex-husband. My mom knew that I struggled, but I didn’t see her much. We only saw each other on holidays.

She is my closest person. Every holiday or every family event that she would see me, she would be increasingly worried because I could talk a good talk but I did not look healthy. She called my ex-husband and they had a mini-intervention. How I got better was Fear. I was scared of losing the relationship that I was in because it was the only stable thing around me. I was deeply in love and I was scared of being exposed. I knew I had to get it together because I was also scared for myself.

As the years went on, just like a diet, it would be, “Every Monday, I’m going to start. I’m no longer going to binge. I’m no longer going to purge.” It’s hard. It doesn’t work like that. You have to be ready. It got to the point where I thought, “Maybe I’m not going to get better because I keep trying and I can’t make it a day.” I didn’t go in-patient. It was recommended and fearful of doing that. You don’t have to. I don’t want to say there’s a right and wrong way to get better.

There’s many outlets. I don’t want to push it on anyone. I did go to therapy. I read books. I held myself accountable with others. That’s one thing I encourage. You need to open up to one person and be able to share that because that’s the first step and admitting it to yourself. I know for years I had a problem. Admitting it to someone else that is in your corner is a big step.

The Male Body Image Stigma: Why Men Don’t Seek Eating Disorder Help

Huge suggestion. There’s a lot to it. Again, for my readers, I want to put this on the level of all of the diagnoses that are out there. This has the highest mortality rate of all of the other psychiatric conditions combined. The stakes are high with an eating disorder. I’ve seen people recover and not recover. As you said, it is a lifelong condition that you have to battle harder than the condition. For so many people, that can become challenging.

I’m curious to ask you about something. Most of my male patients that I’ve worked with over the years, at some point, the concept of eating disorders only for females, comes up. Obviously, it’s not. I’m curious. How did that play a role for you in terms of other people around you having eating problems and the fact that you’re obviously male?

There’s just such a stigma around men being emotional or sensitive or sharing themselves in general. It comes from that toughen up mentality that a lot of people are raised with. In pop culture and media, we see it. I can tell you throughout all my years in TV, I would always get pitches for eating disorder segments. February is eating disorder awareness month and it was always women spokespeople. It was always female nurses. I never got one pitch for a male in recovery to talk.

I want to debunk that stigma and just open the dialogue because still, we don’t talk about it. I’ve read that statistics show men encompass 20% to 25% of people with eating disorders. It runs the spectrum. It’s not just binging, purging, and restricting. You look at bodybuilders. There’s some severe restriction and obsession going on there. They’re damaging their body. It’s obsessive and an addiction in itself. We’re told to brush it off or toughen up and not worry about it. We can get better.

The same as men don’t go to the doctors as much. I would love to open the community and dialogue so that more people can step forward. The silence is damaging a lot. I want to mention Heartstopper, the TV show that is on Netflix. That gave a voice to specifically a teenage character with anorexia. I had never seen that on screen and it spanned multiple seasons. That’s helping people. It’s very slow, though.

I appreciate it. To add to the 20% to 25%, those are reported. There’s a lot of underreporting with males. I can’t begin to tell you how many kids I see on wrestling teams in high school. They’ll say things to me like, “Everybody on the team does this.” I’m like, “That is concerning,” as far as restrictions go and over exercising goes. In many cases, that stigma does impact those numbers. Unfortunately, in a lot of situations it does lead to men or young men not getting help for feelings of, “This can’t be the case.”

Thirteen Years In Recovery: From Isolation To Career Confidence

It is and there’s a lot of people out there, male and female, that have eating issues, eating disorders, or eating difficulties. I love what you said, find one person to be completely honest with and open up to. That’s a huge step for so many people to be able to do that with. I’m curious. Tell us a little bit about Kyle these days and how you’re doing with regards to your eating disorder.

April 1st, 2026 will be the 13th year since the last time I purged.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Ridley | High-Functioning Addiction

 

Congratulations. That’s amazing.

Thank you. It’s a slow progress but every day and every year is better. I want to let people know that it does get better, but it’s not an immediate fix. If you quit cold turkey, you’re going to go through some stuff. To have people in your corner and open up, definitely therapy. I also had to retrain my brain because your brain is fixated on food and binging. I’m still thirteen years later incorporating new foods into my diet now.

We have so many fear foods when we’re struggling and bad foods. Part of recovery is learning that they aren’t bad foods. It’s moderation. I’m sure people can identify. I would be scared to have one chip and one crust of bread. If I did, that would be like, “I might as well eat the house. I might as well go to the store and buy everything I can because I’ve had a chip.” It takes a lot of recovery. A lot of people struggle with binge or binge eating, purging, or anorexia. After stopping, I became orthorexic. You become very focused on, “What are all the healthy things that I can eat? What does everything that I can film myself up with volume eating because I’m used to being full all day?”

I went through that but it’s beneficial because you’re learning about nutrition. I never learned. My point is, it takes time but also, it’s clearing your head with each day, each month and each year. You become more social. I was isolated. All throughout my twenties, I didn’t have friends because I avoided going out. When I wasn’t working or at school, I wanted to be home. I wanted to eat. I wanted to be in my routine and be in my comfort zone. I lived in that comfort zone, which isn’t comfort. It is a jail. It’s a prison that you live in.

When you are comfortable in your own skin, you’re comfortable eating more, socializing, and opening up with friends. Share on X

It obviously led to more confidence. I was so self-conscious even when I was at my fitness. I don’t think I took my shirt off at the beach until my mid late 30s. It’s true when you hear every time, “When you’re younger, the older you get.” You hit a point where you just don’t care anymore. It also comes with recovery and not caring about your body as much. You want to nurture your body but you don’t need to be emaciated. You don’t need to be a huge bodybuilder muscle guy. You become comfortable in your own skin.

Part of that is when you are comfortable in your own skin, you’re comfortable eating more, socializing, and sharing more with friends and opening up. That’s where I am now. I’m more confident than I’ve ever been. I like myself more than I’ve ever been. I don’t have the perfect body. I don’t have the perfect diet but I am where I am. I feel grounded, healthy and mentally stable. I’ve also accomplished a lot throughout my recovery.

In taking that career leap, I don’t know if I could have if I was still struggling with an eating disorder and shifting careers to go to TV and tackle something that I was scared to do. Through that, move up the ladder and tackle more things, create a podcast, create a media company, develop shows, and win Emmys along the way. You have to put yourself out there, but the first part is getting help to put yourself out there and then the other stuff comes along.

Confronting The Root Cause: Managing Anxiety With Medication

No doubt, Kyle. It’s obvious that you have accomplished a tremendous amount. I want to point out the basics of making you happier. You are clearly happy. I didn’t know you then but when you describe your twenties, you did not sound happy.

I was stuck.

Recovery with eating disorders, I always say, is two steps forward and one step back. It is not a smooth path, but that persistence of saying, “I want to be happy. This is my goal. I will get there.” You have gotten there. It’s not like it’s ever over. You continue to put work in. Life throws curveballs at us sometimes but the one thing that I’m hearing from you over and over again is that your confidence has risen. Your belief in yourself has risen. Your happiness has risen and it’s led to other things.

That stagnation of when you’re unhappy versus when you are happy is pretty different. That’s for sure. Again, for young people reading, it’s important for everybody to sit back and ask, “How happy am I?” If the answer is and truly not very happy, there are steps to take. The steps do require some work and effort.

I appreciate you sharing all of what you shared. Again, it takes a lot of guts to put your story out there, but I firmly believe what you said earlier. Which is to create a little bit of a ripple effect. Those individuals reading that are silently struggling, don’t have to silently struggle. They find a person or their person. Try to open up, be honest and try to take those steps because they’re good people out there.

I also want to say that I think a lot of unhappiness or depression. A big part of my issue was anxiety and comforting my anxiety through food, binging, and purging. When I stopped at 30, when you’re on your own, without any of those vices, I still had anxiety. It took me years in recovery to be like, “I need help,” and I got medicine. I do want to put that out there. I’m not going to say specifically, but it was anxiety that was ruling my life. It was COVID where I was like, “This is too much.” I’m not binging or purging but life is still hard.

I’m not just fixed all of a sudden. I’ve probably had anxiety all my life. A lot of it was health anxiety. I would ruminate. I’ve been on a low dose anxiety medication for a few years, and I will say that it does take the edge off. You have anxiety. I have stress, but I would ruminate for days or weeks on end about something and I couldn’t sleep.

Now, I’m able to have it hit me. I’m able to process the stress, the anxiety. It washes over me and I can wash over it much faster in minutes or a day or in a day or less than a day. I do want to encourage people that this isn’t a possible route. I also think that can also help with eating disorders as well. I think a lot of it is anxiety induced and you need to curb anxiety by filling up but there’s other ways to fill up.

The Counterintuitive Act Of Leaning In: Finding Community Support

That’s an excellent point. Many of my young adults I work with and meet, they’re dealing with the primary things you’re dealing with, anxiety and depression. Let’s face it. As you just said, the life of a college student can be very stressful and very anxiety-provoking. I’m here to tell you, it can also be anxiety provoking to be an adult after college. In some ways, we have to prep for that and find things that help us reduce stress and manage stress. I’m curious to ask. What are some things in your world that you might use to help reduce stress? You’ve mentioned medications help and therapy. Are there other ways that you manage stress?

I do want to mention that a big part of my resistance to take medication was weight gain. There are medications that you don’t have to gain weight on. I want to put that out there. I’ve gone to therapy. I’ve also gone to a couple’s therapy. I’ve done individual and couples. If anyone is in a relationship, I encourage that or maybe with your family if they’re younger. Being in a shared room oftentimes is almost easier than being one-on-one with someone because you haven’t a mediator there.

I like trying new things. That helped me conquer my fears. That comes with becoming more confident when you are healing. Pushing myself to do stuff that I was always scared to do and seeing if I can do it. Also, getting over fear of rejection and imposture syndrome comes with healing. I always felt like I didn’t deserve something or worthy or smart enough. As you become more in tune with your mind and body, you are naturally going to go after things that maybe you were more hesitant to do. That’s a big part of healing.

I also made a conscious effort in my late 30s after I did get divorced to open up my friend group. I don’t think I ever had a community. In my twenties, it was just family and my husband. Thirties were mainly about trying to recover and again, I became work obsessed and was with my husband. Being gay, I was not immersed in the gay community ever. I never found my tribe until my divorce. I was like, “I’m on my own now. I have my dogs and I have a good job. Now I need to find people that I can grow old with and not just my good straight girlfriends that are now having babies and I never see them anymore.”

A lot of times in recovery, you try to trade one addiction for the next. It all falls into place once you start getting better, though. You just have to nurture your mind and your body. Share on X

Find a community that you can see on a regular basis. Filling your calendar with things that you love that are outside of eating and binging. You’re going to have the mindset and space to fill it. You’re not going to have anxiety about it. I go to trivia groups and karaoke. I love dancing. I also want to mention that part of my recovery. I never had an addiction but I enjoyed a cocktail every night to reduce the stress. I don’t do that anymore.

As it starts to get better, you also realize there’s vices that maybe you’re clinging to that you don’t need anymore. It comes naturally with filling your brain with substance again and getting older. I hope I’m making sense, but it gets better. A lot of times in recovery, you try to trade one addiction for the next. It all falls into place once you start getting better, though. You just have to nurture your mind and your body.

I can’t help but notice the irony around young people. When they’re feeling anxious, they pull back. The things that make them nervous instead of leaning into, they pull back. Whereas in many cases, the answer is to lean in and say, “I’m going to try karaoke. I’m going to step out of the box. I’m going to let myself be uncomfortable and see if I enjoy it.” I’ve had patients do that and then two years later, they’re still doing it. They love it. Trying new things is such a great way of putting it like letting a person think about, “What are those barriers that I’m putting in place to my own happiness?” That’s a great way of putting it. I like that a lot and it’s funny.

Take your shirt off. Go in a bathing suit. Realize people do not care. It’s you who cares way too much and I realize that pretty quickly in recovery. It’s all about how I’m just dissecting myself and beating myself up. Everyone else either doesn’t care or wants to embrace you.

It’s funny you say that. We live in such a world where there’s a lot of people that simply don’t care. We’ve got our close people that do and they’re not judging you. They love you. They want the best for you. It’s a great way of putting it out, Kyle. I’m curious. You and I haven’t chatted much about this piece, but part of the show is I asked my guests to nominate a friend, a co-worker, a relative, or someone that you know that may be a good guest for future shows. Part of the concept is I want the conversations to keep moving forward and for young people to truly understand the importance of putting your journey out there so that other people can learn from it. Does anyone come to mind when I throw that out to you?

One of my best friends comes to mind and I would give you his name in private. He’s dealt with some similar stuff with me in a different way. He grew up a bit more conservatively than me. He’s also in the gay community but has had a hard time because of maybe some of the political beliefs that he was raised with and fully embracing himself. I think he would be a good person to talk with because now, in such politically heightened times, it’s very divisive.

Realize people do not care. It’s you who cares way too much. Share on X

Specifically a gay person who may be leaning conservatively and also has a history with eating disorders and body image. He would be fascinating to speak with. I adore him and I think we all could use a little healing and camaraderie now, even though we’re in such devices at times. I always try to find common ground. You can find common ground with most people. I do try to see the good in everyone. We may not agree on everything but I appreciate, love and respect him. I would be happy to connect you with him.

I appreciate the recommendation. I agree with you. I think you can find common ground if you look hard enough in everybody. I want to thank you for your time, and your energy. I know you’re busy but making the time and space to talk about things you’ve been through. I’m hoping my readers are getting some information. Even if it’s a matter of being able to talk about uncomfortable things. That’s a great first step. I thank you from all of us. I appreciate you spending some time with us.

I appreciate it. If people want to follow my show, we don’t get as in depth but everyone that I talked to, I say we go deep and shallow. We get the light-hearted stuff, but everyone always has a story to tell. As I said, I try to ask everyone about hope and there’s some interesting answers from the people that I speak with. It’s worth a listen.

How do they find you, Kyle?

KyleRidley.com is my website, but I would say Instagram is the best place. That’s where I post the most. It’s just my name @KyleRidley_ and then the Tangle with Kyle Ridley, wherever you get your podcast. It’s mostly celebrities but sometimes I have some good friends on and we do deep dives into life and dating and culture. It’s a fun ride.

Look him up. It sounds like a great show. Kyle, once again thanks for your time, your energy and I appreciate you being here.

Thank you so much, Marc.

 

Important Links

 

About Kyle Ridley

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Kyle Ridley | High-Functioning AddictionKyle Ridley is an Emmy Award–winning journalist, producer, writer, and podcast host known for his thoughtful storytelling and authentic conversations. After building a career in broadcast television producing live and feature programming, Kyle transitioned into the podcast space where he created The Tangle with Kyle Ridley — a show centered on meaningful dialogue with creatives, entertainers, and leaders about purpose, growth, and the human experience.

Through his work, Kyle has developed a reputation for going beyond surface-level interviews, creating space for honesty, vulnerability, and connection. On Normalize It Forward, Kyle brings his perspective from both sides of the microphone — as a media professional and as someone deeply interested in the stories that shape who we become — helping move the conversation forward around mental health, resilience, and real life behind the scenes.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Retired Fire Captain Dave Shenbaum | Turning Shortcomings Into Strengths

 

Retired Fire Captain Dave Shenbaum is a community connector known for his deep roots and commitment to others, forged through 30 years of public service in high-pressure, high-stakes environments, including the Manhattan Beach Fire Department. In this powerful conversation, Dave brings a grounded, real-world perspective to mental health, purpose, and perseverance. From navigating the challenge of dyslexia and the intensity of paramedic school, to offering honest advice for today’s youth on overcoming “overwhelming doom,” Dave provides essential wisdom. He explains why we all need to “Work on my shit first” (WOMSF), why appreciation is the key to escaping bitterness, and how turning your shortcomings into strengths is non-negotiable.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Turning Shortcomings Into Strengths, Mental Wellness, And The Power Of ‘WOMSF’ With Retired Fire Captain Dave Shenbaum

Welcome to the show. I’m excited to have Dave Shenbaum. Dave, how are you?

I’m doing great. Marc, thanks for having me.

Thanks for being here. I appreciate it. Dave is a longtime community member and connector known for his deep roots, relationships and commitment to showing up for others. He’s a retired Fire Captain with the Manhattan Beach Fire Department. Dave, dedicated decades of his career to public service, leadership and protecting his community in high pressure, high stakes environments.

Growing up in a family grounded in service, leadership and integrity, he learned early the importance of responsibility, accountability and taking care of your people. Through both his personal life and professional career, Dave has first-hand shown strength and struggle often coexist. Also, about why honest conversation around mental health, pressure and purpose matter. He brings a grounded real-world perspective to Normalize It Forward helping move the conversation from silence to connection. Dave, welcome. How are you?

Thanks, Marc. I appreciate that intro. That’s very kind of you.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Retired Fire Captain Dave Shenbaum | Turning Shortcomings Into Strengths

 

Absolutely. I got to say I’m a little jealous looking at the sunshine. We don’t have much sunshine where we are, but I’m glad you guys do. That’s fantastic.

A beautiful day in Southern California. That’s for sure.

Dave Shenbaum’s Background And Career Path

Awesome. Dave, let’s jump right in. I want to hear about 30 years in the fire department. That’s a long time. I don’t know if there’s a way to capture that time frame and what it means to you.

It was an interesting entrance for my career. I was born and raised in a Jewish family in West Covina. My parents and grandparents were disappointed I had become an accountant or a doctor or an attorney. Later, they were very proud. I entered public safety in an interesting way. I played sports growing up and ended up migrating to the beach. I became an ocean lifeguard right after high school, I dabbled at college a little bit.

I’m dyslexic, so traditional college came a little bit of a challenge for me. I had to work a little bit harder to do certain things, especially later in life in my career. I came out to LA and I worked as an ocean lifeguard for LA County, which I continued part-time for many years. That was a great run. A lot of wonderful friendships and experiences. I met my wife through there and we have three beautiful girls all in college. One is in her Master’s and two are at Boulder in Colorado.

I started working for the ski patrol up in Mammoth Mountain. I would go to the mountains in the winter, and then the beach in the summer for several years. From there, I had to pick a career path. I ended up going to paramedic school. I got hired by the fire department and then full-time with the fire department for 30 years. That’s my professional career. I retired in 2025. It was a great run. As we spoke, I thought I would just enjoy my life with surfing, scuba diving, fishing and skiing. Lo and behold, I got riled in.

I’m doing some fun work in my retirement life. I’m the Safety Director for the X Games. We have our summer games in Salt Lake City. I just got back this week from the Aspen games, the Winter Games. We have a large concert venue here in Redondo Beach called Beach Life and their safety director doing some work for them as well. That’s my background.

Navigating Life And Academia With Dyslexia

First of all, congratulations on your retirement. Amazing career and a cool story. How that all unfolded and happened. I wanted to just pick on a few things if it’s okay. You mentioned you have dyslexia. For those that don’t know, it’s a learning disability. It makes life challenging in some ways. I wanted just to ask. How has that made life challenging for you? How is that helped you?

Great two questions. I had wonderful parents and grandparents that jumped on early diagnosis, which was a blessing. It was very frustrating through elementary school, middle school and high school. Everyone’s getting great grade and I’m not. I have the gift of gab. I can communicate and socialize with everybody but in school work, it did not come easy. Nothing came easy. I took remedial classes, which is a little bit embarrassing when you’re in high school. Everyone’s in mainstream classes and I am not.

What I found out at through paramedic school, which was very difficult, failure rates very high. It’s like many MD class and nine months just all crammed in. I went for a long walk on the beach and realized, “You have to study different. You have to put a little more work into it and in different areas. Find ways that works for you. Don’t do the things that are traditional that doesn’t work for you.” Throughout my career, that’s what I did.

Find what works for you. Don’t force traditional paths that don’t fit you. Share on X

It served me well to do that but academics and getting a 40 degree or masters became very challenging, so I didn’t do the traditional college route later in life. I went to my local community college with all of my fire department classes and my junior college classes. Not being in school in 25 years and I laid it out to the counselor. She said, “I’ve never seen someone with so many college credits that don’t mean anything.” I said, “Great. I’m not going to get my online degree.”

You just have to find ways that works for you to be engaged. Now, it is easier with computers and software and audiobooks. I’m not a big reader but I love audiobooks. It just gets me in the game of getting my brain going and listening to great books that people talk about that and they enjoy to read. I can get a road trip and throw it in. It’s learning ways to learn that work well for you. Part of it was just, “It’s not going to be easy, but figure it out what works for you.” Some of it is a little bit harder work but it pays off in the long run.

It’s such good advice. I think young kids now are challenged or challenge with lots of different things. I can imagine facing that when you’re younger not knowing what it is. You end up thinking to yourself, “Am I just not smart? Is this what it is?” I see kids throughout my day that are challenged with all sorts of things. A lot of them will initially give up. It’s that initial concept of working hard through something. Why should I? You’re a shining example, Dave.

You’re shining example of somebody who worked hard through that and got somewhere. From what I know about paramedic school, it’s super intense. Thankfully you did that. I came only imagine how many people and families you helped over the years as a fire chief. That’s a long time working in the fire department.

Turning Shortcomings Into Strengths

We all have disabilities or shortcomings or whatever it may be. If you start working on your shortcomings, they will become your strengths but you need to work on them. It’s not easy. It’s uncomfortable. One quick example. We were doing some public relations or a PR thing for a community event. Since I was the highest ranking officer, I was going to give the presentation. I was all prepared to give it. It was maybe a 20-30 minute presentation and a bunch of seniors or community members and councils. I forgot what it was.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Retired Fire Captain Dave Shenbaum | Turning Shortcomings Into Strengths

 

Right when I was ready to go up, one of my young firemen who is now replaced me in as a battalion chief in the department. He’s very shy, very quiet, wonderful guy and he says, “Cap, I want to do it.” He’s like the last guy I would have picked to do it. I would have never put him on the spot because he doesn’t like to speak in front of the public. He obviously had prepared beforehand and didn’t tell me until last minute.

He killed it. He crushed it. He met his fears and he prepared. When you’re prepared, it definitely helps you be successful. Now he’s outspoken. He’s a great presenter. He physically and mentally is a great presenter. You just have to work on some of your shortcomings to become your strengths. If you don’t, they tend to haunt you a little bit. They don’t need to become your strength, but they won’t be your fears and won’t eat you.

It seems so many people do that and the public eye. Whether it be athletes or musicians or other people that have faced those things. I like what you said. We all do have disabilities. We all have strengths. We all have weaknesses. Our challenge in life in many ways is to work on some of those weaker things and to turn them into strengths if possible. I can’t help but notice your boards up top. You mentioned surfing. I wanted to ask you about wellness. As contemporary of mind, a dad with college kids, what do you do for your own wellness?

It comes in phases, the different times of your life. You have time to do certain things. If you asked my wife, I’m probably not the healthiest guy. I go to In-and -Out. I walk in and they know my name and my order.

They have good burgers, Dave. Come on.

Those on the East Coast might not know. Look up In-and-Out. You’ll love it. You got to find. Time to carve out some physical times and some mental time to put on your oxygen mask first. I was working out with the guys in the gym every day. We’d work out together. Even the young guys that were crushing it doing CrossFit and older guys like myself, we can still do some things together camaraderie. I’m going on walks.

I mentioned to you I went for breakfast with some retired lifeguards. I rode my bike there and back. I’m doing some Pilates, where the 70 year old ladies kicked my butt and make fun of me. I do surf. We live very close to the water, free dive and scuba dive and an avid skier. I try to stay active and busy. As you get older, it’s these aches and pains of riding a fire engine for many years. I’ve had seven work related surgeries. The last three were back surgery. The last one was a two level fusion of my low back, but I have recovered great and feel good. I try to stay active, both mentally and physically to keep up with the mental health and wellness and stay positive.

Advice For Youth On Mental Health, Overcoming Overwhelming Doom, And Finding Mentors

Good for you, Dave. If your kids are anything like mine, when you turn to them and offer them advice about wellness, they’re like, “Whatever, Dad.” Can I ask you to speak to generally the kids that are reading this? To me, young people in high school and in college, what they do for wellness or don’t do for wellness is incredibly important in terms of their life and their lifestyle. Any suggestions you can make to a young person listening around wellness?

I’m certainly no expert. This isn’t my lane other than my personal experience. I helped a lot of people in this field. Not professionally, but more as a friend. Whether they’re younger firefighters or police officers. My doors always wide open and there tends to be a line out the door. I don’t give professional advice. It’s more of my life experience and reflection. A lot of it is what I would do different. I share with them my story of things that I would do different when I was younger.

I’m not lecturing them and I’m not giving them professional advice. With my kids, it’s hard. It’s very hard to give advice to your kids. It’s hard to have those conversations. As your show, it’s wonderful that you can be some medium or parents can play the show with their children. You can listen and they can take in what they want and push out what they don’t want. You follow up or ask questions or call bullshit. Whatever they choose to do or more about health.

With three kids in college, it’s a very challenging age to grow up. It’s very different than the era that we grew up. Good, bad and different. You can make a lot of comments in each of those areas. It’s more challenging now. There’s a stigma for mental health and wellness. I don’t want to overplay mental health and wellness. The more we talk about it, the more people who are pretty grounded could say, “I have some mental health and wellness issues.”

It can be a crutch sometime for people to blanket themselves with some mental health and wellness issues. Medicated themselves when maybe they don’t need to. I’m not a huge fan of, “Suck it up. Tighten up your bootstraps.” A little of that is true like hard work. “Suck it up” are first world problems that you’re talking about. Get over it. I do think there’s a lot of very significant things that are going on. Especially with our youth with everything that I’m sure that you’ve talked about such as social media, peer pressure, finances, and getting a job. Everything is overwhelming. It is.

You can get a lot more for your money. When I was my kids age, I can run an apartment with no problem life guarding the ocean. I bought a house as a young fireman, a mile and a half from the beach in Southern California. My kids will never be able to afford a house in the community that they grew up in. Even with the college degree and having good jobs and making good money. That can add to mental health and wellness issues of the sense of overwhelming doom and like, “I’m working hard but there’s no real payoff.”

Reflection is amazing. I wish the 57-year-old Dave could sit and talk to the 21-year-old Dave. Have a conversation about things that worked out well. Some challenges that I had growing up and some things that I stepped in that I wish I had a mentor or someone that could tell me watch out for those potholes because they’re significant. They’ll set you back. Having these conversations with someone, whether it’s a professional or a friend or mentor. Having a mentor as a young man or woman is important. It could be a neighbor, a coach, or someone in your religious faith.

Having a mentor as a young man or woman is important. It could be a neighbor, a coach, a person in your faith community, or a boss—someone who can guide you and help you avoid the pitfalls we all face. Share on X

Maybe a boss that can give you some help and help you avoid the pitfalls that we’re all going to be stepping. A lot of those are growth opportunities, but look at them as growth opportunities and not setbacks. Looking at ways to make you stronger and go back better from that. When you become older like us, be a mentor. Be willing and pay it forward. Reach out to others who are struggling or need help. It’s wonderful. Also, as you get older, it serves a purpose to giving back. It’s harder to be a mentee and to realize you need a mentor.

There’s so many great nuggets there, Dave. You hit the nail on the head with so much of what you just said. It is dramatically different with this generation than ours. I hear about all the time from my patients. “I’m studying.” “I’m working hard.” “I’m doing this just to get a degree and not be able to work.” I don’t have much to say to that. There’s some reality to that in some ways. I want to highlight about what you said earlier. For a lot of kids, they’re not told this over late but they’re facing, “How do I deal with my stress?”

I almost feel like there’s this crossroad for a lot of kids. There’s unhealthy ways of like, “I smoked a lot of pot.” There’s healthy ways of like, “I’m going to go work out.” I’ve watched many kids do one or the other. Obviously, one leads to a lot of positivity. I want kids to understanding that in many cases you’re going to have those opportunities. The simple fix and the working hard fix. I’ve always found that fruitful things in life require hard work.

If you’re doing something and it’s easy, you’re probably doing it wrong in many cases. Dave, let me ask the cousin question to the one I asked you as a parent. Parents read to this often as well. A lot of parents come in my office and be like, “I can’t talk to my kid. I have a real hard time reaching to my kid. I don’t understand this generation.” I wondered. As parents, we’re always guessing. Let’s face it. Sometimes, we guess right but we’re always guessing and your experiences. Any advice to offer parents that are reading to this podcast with kids and in college?

Advice For Parents On Consistency And Seeking External Support

I’m blessed to have an amazing wife who’s just brilliant and so good with our daughter’s. They’re successful and happy. Not to say they don’t have their issues with some mental health, struggles and some wellness issues. It’s hard being two parents. I can’t imagine people with a split household with one parents. It’s very hard. We’re not experts. Parents, don’t pretend you’re an expert. Kids, don’t think that your parents are experts. We had our struggles. We’re just like you. We’re only 30 years older.

It’s very hard to have a conversation with your kid. To knock on the door and break them away from whatever they’re doing and talk about their concerns. It’s remarkable if you can have that interaction and relationship with your kid. I believe it starts like day one and you as a parent have influence up to somewhere around the middle of middle school. Influencing your kids. Surround yourself with good friends. Surround yourself with good people.

If they’re not pouring into you, if they’re drain on you, get rid of them. Surround yourself with positive good healthy people. I’m a big advocate of sports. It’s so much in your life, whether you’re athletic or not. Find something that has a wonderful coach or a mentor. A teamwork environment. Show up when you’re supposed to show up. Not being selfish but in a team like in environment. It does a lot with later down the road as you get older, even with your career. Those are all important.

After middle school and certainly in college, you’ve baked in what you’re going to bake in. The kids are going to do what they want. You can take their phone away. You can ground them. You can take money away. At the end of the day, that doesn’t change behavior much. It’s what you can still them at an early age. A lot of people reading, probably that part is too late. Not being best friends with your kids but be consistent with your kids. Be kind, loving and consistent, especially post-COVID.

If you go to a therapist or a psychologist, it does that mean you’re screwed up. If anything, it’s just, “I’m on the right heading as a kid.” These things that feel awkward, is it normal? Kids want to say, “Are these feelings I have normal?” They’re normal. You’re wearing this amazing jacket for the first time and it doesn’t fit quite well but you’re going to grow into it. Trust me. The weirdness you have for a girl or a boy, is normal.

Being afraid that you haven’t been asked out on a date or you haven’t had a kiss in your senior and high school. That’s normal. Don’t read into social media and how bitching everybody’s life is as opposed to just talking to someone saying, “Am I doing it right? Is this normal? These weird things, these feelings that I have.” You’ll be surprised everyone’s going through it. They just don’t want to talk about it. They only want to post all the wonderful great things that’s going on in their life. Not some of the struggles, issues, the fear and the unknown.

High schools are gnarly time. I have three daughters. It’s catty tough time for women. It’s a challenging interesting time for men. I don’t think men have some great role models out in the public sector to model. Look no further than your own backyard. Model yourself that neighborhood who takes all the trash cans out. Model yourself after that little league coach or the high school coach or the chess coach or the theater teacher or your pastor. Whatever it may be in your life.

Find these people. It can always be your parents. Most kids don’t want it to be their parents, but the parents can be a nexus to maybe putting them in touch with people that can help them. You just can’t lecture your kid. You can’t put them in the right direction all the time. Going to therapy when they need some significant counseling or whether it’s just 3, 4, or half dozen sessions to check in and make sure I’m on the right compass heading and heading in the right direction.

I’m hearing you say something important, Dave, and that is getting some support on some level if you need it. Support looks like all different things. I was that little league coach. I know what you mean when you said that. Sometimes, you find support. I found it myself growing up in the weirdest place. Sometimes it’s a teacher, a coach, or a friend’s parents. Support comes in all different sizes and shapes. Looking back, at least for myself when I look back, I didn’t realize when I met some of those people that they be so impactful and so important in my journey.

Most people our age can say that and that we had these three people that were involved. They pushed us in this direction. For the young people out there, listen to Dave. It’s good advice. That cliché phrase of, “You’re never alone.” You’re not. You’re not alone. There’s plenty of people out there that are willing to help. Dave, you sound like a huge heart and a kind individual. Not just to spend some time with us. You’ve done lots of things over the years. You strike me as somebody if a kid were to approach you, you’d be happy to help. Most adults, if they’re in that position, they’d be glad to lend a hand. I want young people realizing that there’s good people out there.

For young kids, if you show a little bit of interest in someone that’s pouring into you. Take advantage of that. You’ll do it more. As you get older, when you’re in high school, middle school, even in college, it’s tough to identify that. I spent a lot of time now that I’m retired. I did when I was working, too. Helping young men and women get into the fire service. I focused my time on helping guys and gals promote in the fire department through the different ranks with interviews and taking the test.

Now, a lot of my focus is entry level firefighters and police officers. It’s been super rewarding. Even some kids that didn’t think they wanted to do it now have a lot of interest. The work is very purposeful. The salary and benefits here in Southern California are great. The time off is great. It’s very rewarding and some people didn’t even know that’s what they wanted to do. It’s life-changing. I would say if you find someone who is willing to pour into you, whether it’s work or education. Whatever field it may be. Even if you work at Starbucks. Don’t push that person away if they’re willing to pour into you, help you and mentor you even just a little bit.

If you find someone willing to invest in you—whether in work, education, or any field, even something like a job at Starbucks—don’t push them away. If they’re willing to pour into you, guide you, and mentor you even a little, value it. Share on X

One thing I’ve done since I’ve retired and now that I have a little more time on my hands. I gone back to the people who mentored me in my life. I use that word very general, but who were very influential in my life. I went back to them and asked to go to lunch or breakfast. I shared the story of how they affected my life in a positive way. I would say 80% of them had no idea. I would tell them specific stories or interactions. These people weren’t that I hung out with them all the time at all.

It might have been just an interaction or a couple small interactions or worked for someone for a short period of time. Their leadership, their kindness, their generosity, or something that I observed that they did for others. I put that in my Rolodex. I put that in my slideshow and created my own slideshow of what I want to be a better version of myself later on. eighty percent of them were touched and almost brought to tears.

Nobody comes back to tell them that they were unaware of how they affected my life. They were very rewarded. They’re probably 20-30 years older than I am. I would live my life or my career with some of their greatness sprinkled in to my life. I went to dear neighbors that my brother and I grew up in this cul de sac in West Covina. We’re athletes. There’s baseballs in everybody’s front yard ivy and breaking windows. I was a bit of a good kid but not a little bit of a troublemaker. A mischief kind of kid. I go to the neighbors and apologize. They’ve met my children. One is a Psychologist and he put his hand on my shoulder and said, “Dave, we’re so proud of you.” He said in a way like, “We were unsure which way you’re going to go.” That was a deep complement.

Life Is Hard: Finding Appreciation And Avoiding Bitterness And Resentment

It’s a tough life for these young kids. I would say this. Don’t make yourself a victim. Life is hard. Life is fucking brutal hard and it doesn’t get easier. It’s hard, but it was hard when we were cavemen. It’s just always hard. Survival is hard. A thousand years ago, it was hard making fire, finding food and surviving. Weather, food and shelter was the hardest thing. People died from it. Life is hard in 2026. It’s not easy. One of my daughters told me a couple years ago, “Dad, what I want to do is work part-time from home. If I can make $150,000 a year I’d be happy.” I said, “No shit, sweetie. So does everybody else. I want to do that.”

It doesn’t happen that way. You look at Instagram and look at TV or whatever it is. Maybe there’s people doing that or influencers or whatever it may be. That’s not the majority of the people. It takes hard work, dedication and you’ll be successful. You’ll have setbacks. Don’t be afraid of your setbacks. Don’t be afraid of your failures. Learn from them. Get back up and keep on moving. Don’t be bitter. Don’t be resentful.

One thing that Dr. John Becknell has helped me quite a bit in my tough times in my career, especially towards the end, said, “You need to find a sense of appreciation.” I didn’t understand it at a time. If you have the shittiest day in the world and you’re walking home or whatever you may be. You see a little flower blossom out of a crack of concrete. Pause and take a minute. Appreciate that flower for a minute.

The sense of appreciation in a chaotic crazy life, whether you’re a teenager or an adult juggling finances, a mortgage and a job with a shtity boss that we all have and struggles with family. You got to find some appreciation. Slow down and appreciate, in all the chaos, the beautiful sunset, the sunrise, a good conversation, a smile, and your coffee giving you a little nod. That will fill your soul. That’s what has helped a lot of survivors in the Holocaust, concentration camps and World War II. It’s finding some appreciation and not fall into being bitter and resentful, which is so easy to do. Pick yourself up. Be positive and move forward. It takes work and effort.

Words of wisdom, David. It’s very impactful. The word decision comes to mind. There’s a decision to not allow yourself to fall into that bitterness and the decision to recognize that flower. We all have that young animal. Whether we’re going to school or we’re working or whatever we’re doing. It is a bit chaotic these days out in the world. It is up to us as to how much we let in, how much cash we let in and how much goodness, kind and enjoy we let in. You’re clearly someone who’s done some work on that and gotten to a better place to be able to smile. As my friend years ago used to say, “We got one life to live here. Life is not a dress rehearsal. This is our life.”

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Retired Fire Captain Dave Shenbaum | Turning Shortcomings Into Strengths

 

The Concept Of “WOMSF” (Work On My Shit First) And Focusing On Self-Improvement

Once been around this rock. Exactly. It’s not a dress rehearsal. The other thing I’ll add is, everyone’s got a bad boss. Everyone has a bad teacher. Everyone has a bad whatever. It is what it is. You’re going to have them. You’re going to have great ones and you’re going to have shitty ones. I would scream from the Mountaintop of horrible shitty chief that I had. I was the point person and very vocal in my department and our union.

My wife said one day, “Does everybody know he’s a jerk and a bad boss, this and that?” I go, “Everybody knows.” I went on and on. She goes, “Why do you have to say it from the Mountaintop? Do your job and go home. You got the best shift. All the young guys want to work with you. You’re full of life but this is dragging you down. All you focus on is this crappy boss.” She was right. When you’re in it, you just focus on the crappy friend or boss or teacher.

It is what it is. You’re going to have more of them. Put it out. Enjoy the good and deal with the bad unless you have some influence of making that change. Which as we get older, sometimes we do. When I started to work on myself a little bit, which wasn’t until a few years ago. It was because of a crappy boss. I took all these quotes and phrases. I was trying to work on a book. It’s like a little notebook for myself of quotes and things to reflect on and help me move on in a positive way.

Enjoy the good and deal with the bad—unless you have the power to influence change. Share on X

I wrote this book and I showed my buddy. The very front said, “WOMSF.” Everyone asks me. I bring it to work and have it on my desk. Everybody asked me. That’s like a conversational piece. It says, “Work on my shit first.” If you don’t work on your shit first, teenagers, twenty-year-olds, new parents, new career, retirement, wherever you are, you’re missing the boat. For 50 years, I did not work on my shit first. I pointed like this at other people, “They’re messed up. They’re jacked up. They’re this.”

I started looking at myself, appreciating things and work hard. Call the bullshit when you need to, but don’t dwell on it. Call out. Address it. My emotions are on my sleeves but then I have to move off of it and live my life and work hard. Work on your shit first. Once you start working on your shift for first, you shine brighter light on yourself. You become a little bit more patient and a little bit more humble. Some of the things that you used to bother you and drive you crazy. They don’t bother you anymore because you have no influence to that change. Hopefully, the people that do will make those changes and be more positive.

I love that, Dave. Work on my shit first. Many people out there are doing this. When you do take that step to take a look at, its powerful. What we’re doing, sets the tone in the ripple effect.

You also have to create some boundaries, especially for women. Create some boundaries in life with relationships or whatever it may be. Don’t let you get into that dark space. You can get in the dark space of hating, being resentful and bitter. It’s very unhealthy and it’s hard to snap out of it.

Dave, I have to say thank you so much for your time and energy. I had the luxury of speaking to a second Shenbaum in the last couple of weeks. It’s been a joy. You guys are great. I’m so glad I had an opportunity to meet you. I appreciate all of what you brought to the table. Dave was kind enough to share some resources offline with me about people that he’d like to nominate and keep the conversation moving forward. Dave, once again, I enjoyed talking to you. I appreciate so much your time, your energy, and your space. All of your growth, too. Those suggestions you’ve made, I know there’s nuggets there that people will take.I appreciate you putting that out there.

No problem. Thanks for having me on, Marc. I appreciate it.

 

Important Links

 

About Retired Fire Captain Dave Shenbaum

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Retired Fire Captain Dave Shenbaum | Turning Shortcomings Into StrengthsDave Shenbaum is a longtime community member and connector known for his deep roots, relationships, and commitment to showing up for others.

A retired Fire Captain with the Manhattan Beach Fire Department, Dave dedicated decades of his career to public service, leadership, and protecting his community in high-pressure, high-stakes environments.

Growing up in a family grounded in service, leadership, and integrity, he learned early the importance of responsibility, accountability, and taking care of your people.

Through both his personal life and professional career, Dave has seen firsthand how strength and struggle often coexist—and why honest conversations around mental health, pressure, and purpose matter.

He brings a grounded, real-world perspective to Normalize It Forward, helping move the conversation from silence to connection.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jordyn Sugar | Empowered Pop

 

Mental health and music go hand in hand since most artists pour the contents of their hearts and minds into their songs. This is exactly what Canadian singer-songwriter and pop artist Jordyn Sugar is doing through her empowered pop music. Joining Marc Lehman, she discusses her creativity, confidence, and what it means to normalize inner work, especially among young people. Jordyn also shares how Justin Bieber inspired her to continue writing music and how she uses her art to encourage self-belief and emotional openness that help unlock your most authentic self.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

—

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

The Power Of Empowered Pop With Jordyn Sugar

Everybody, welcome to the show. I am here this evening to talk openly about mental health and wellness. I am joined tonight by Jordyn Sugar. Jordyn, thank you so much for joining us.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

I appreciate you being here. I am going to run through a quick intro, Jordyn, then we will get going. We will jump right in. As I mentioned, we have Jordyn Sugar, a Canadian singer, songwriter, and pop artist whose music centers on empowerment, authenticity, and self-expression. I did my homework, and I listened to a lot of your music. It’s really good stuff. I really encourage my readers to get out there and look up Jordyn.

Jordyn first connected with a wide audience through social media, using music as a way to speak honestly about confidence, growth, and finding your voice, especially during moments when life can be a bit uncertain. Her sound blends pop, R&B, and dance, which is influenced by the heart of her work, which is a clear message that being yourself is powerful. Beyond music, Jordyn is passionate about using her platform to encourage self-belief and emotional openness, making her a natural fit for conversations that matter, like this one.

Using Empowered Pop Music To Inspire Young People

I am excited to talk with her about her creativity, confidence, and what it means to normalize the inner work we all do, especially as young people find their way. I am so sorry, I fumbled that a bunch, but Jordyn, welcome. I have got to say, I am a huge fan of the music, number one. I love the work that you do and your passion. I want to hear really all about it. One of the things that I came across that I thought was just so cool was this strong message of be yourself and how important that is for young people. Tell us about that.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jordyn Sugar | Empowered Pop

 

Growing up, I was a bit different than the typical kid. I was a tomboy growing up. I was playing sports and playing the drums, which was not typical for a regular girl fifteen years ago. I was always seeing myself as a little bit different, which is okay for me because I knew that being different stood out, and I did not mind that. Now, with my whole brand of empowered pop, the goal is to let people know that being different is okay basically. There is something to be said about standing out and being your own unique identity, and not following the same trends and paths that everyone else normally takes. Just be completely yourself, even if it means people not liking it.

I love that. What a great message. Empowered pop. I came across that phrase when I was reading about you, and it just got me thinking so deeply about the concept of young adults nowadays. Young adults, in my opinion, this generation, the generation you are in, are often very cool with being themselves. I just love that. Compared to my generation, where we never did that, right?

Yeah, it is a bit different now.

No doubt. Empowered pop. I am assuming what you mean by that is that in a lot of your song lyrics, you talk a lot about being yourself and being authentic. Tell me why that is so important.

Music speaks a lot of volume, and sometimes when you just speak words, it does not hit as hard as when you sing them. Every generation, you have that song that stands out, that empowers. We have We Are the World and all these big anthems that are super unity-focused. They speak so much about coming together and empowerment. Instead of just singing pop music, my brand and everything is empowered pop.

Music speaks a lot of volume. Sometimes, when you just speak words, they do not hit as hard as when you sing them. Share on X

Empowering does not have to be the same message that I talk about in every song, but as long as there is a message of empowerment in every song, no matter what it is about. If it is about overcoming heartbreak or following your dreams or just getting over an ex or something like that, but on positive terms, like “You got this,” or “It is all good. I will do it myself,” or “I am good in my shoes.” All those different topics that play into anything empowering, I love to talk about them because a lot of music could be negative nowadays. I like to bring a positive side to it.

I was just thinking that a lot of music can be really negative, and what a wonderful spin. It is a really good vibe, and just from my perspective, good for people to hear and listen to. I totally agree with what you said, by the way. Music deepens messages. The message that you are sending in a lot of your music is super positive and super powerful as well.

Thank you.

How Jordyn’s Music Career Began

You are welcome. Tell me, I want to hear a little bit about your music career so far. When did you start? You said you started as a drummer.

I guess it roots back to when I was three years old. I started playing on an electric drum set my dad had in the basement. He was a drummer growing up, and I think I got that in my bloodstream. From the age of three, I was playing the drums, but I actually had rhythm and an actual flow to it. It was not random hitting. I would play songs, play along to songs, and catch onto the beat. It came super naturally without even thinking, which is not something that happens when you are that young.

It is something either you have got to pursue, or you have got to keep working on, because obviously it is there from the get-go. Singing was a little bit in the back of my life. I would always sing, but it was not at the forefront. The drums or playing basketball. Those were the two things that I was really good at. I loved singing, and I love music, but I never thought I had a good voice, so I never put myself out there. When COVID hit, school was shutting down. I was in the last year of high school, and I was so bored. I love being out, and I love doing things. As soon as everything was shut down, I could not just sit around.

I was like, “What is better than now?” This is the best time if I am going to put myself out there and wing it and hope that somebody thinks I am good at singing. The time is now because I thought in my head, “I am not going to go back to school because of COVID.” No one is going to see me ever again in my head. This is what I was thinking, and if I am going to embarrass myself, at least I do not have to see anyone in person. I just went with it, and I guess it just caught on, and people started liking it. I do not know if you know, but that is when Justin Bieber reposted my TikTok to his Instagram story.

I did not know that. That is pretty awesome.

Hence why he is on the wall, I can see that. On the wall, like the Never Say Never, always believe in your dreams. As he said, “Never Say Never.” I just started believing in myself to the max after that moment happened. I took off with that momentum of confidence to where I am now.

What a cool story. Tell me in terms of performances, where do you perform? What is that like? Walk us through that a little bit, Jordyn.

I have performed on stages across a few cities in Canada. I have been to the States, and I performed. I performed in front of ten people. I performed in front of thousands. I performed even in front of 25,000 people, which is something I do not even think of. I was at a festival here in Montreal. Performing is my favorite thing. I love recording. I love being online. I love content creation. There is something about stepping onto a stage and performing that nothing else does for me like that.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jordyn Sugar | Empowered Pop

 

It is just such an adrenaline rush, and it makes me really understand why I love to do what I do. When I step onto a stage, I remember why I love it so much. I know it is cliché, but it really is true. The moment you feel that feeling of being with a mic and just walking out and people cheering, it is a different type of feeling. I performed in Vegas. I opened up for CeeLo Green.

I saw that. Yeah, that is impressive. Good for you, Jordyn.

That was on the Vegas strip. That was so cool. I have opened up for Gloria Gaynor and Kool & the Gang here in Montreal. I just performed in Jersey not too long ago and opened for Rachel Grae. I have opened up for Kardinal Offishall in Toronto for Canada Day. I have opened up for a few people in Montreal here at smaller venues. I also went to LA and performed at a few schools with KISS Radio there. I toured all the Montreal EMSB schools here. It got me a lot of traction with all of the kids in Montreal.

That is fantastic. You have been busy, my goodness.

Since COVID.

I sure hope your mind has changed about your voice. It is fantastic, by the way.

Thank you.

You have been super successful, and I am excited for what is to come. Tell me, I am curious, because your audience is mostly kids. Would you say?

I believe that I have a wide demographic just because my music is so pop and it is so radio-friendly that anyone who listens to the radio would hear my song, and I think they would like it just because it fits that particular box. I do think that a lot of kids like my music because I do cater to that young poppy sound, but as I grow up, I want my music to grow with me. That is where this next era of my music is going.

It is changing from a song like Summer High, which is super teeny-bop. It is great. It is a great song. It is so catchy. It is personally one of my favorites that I have ever done. The kids love it because it is so kid-friendly. Now we are moving on to the more adult themes, which is still what kids listen to because I believe music is for anybody. I do not know if it is mostly for kids. A lot of kids love my music, but a lot of adults love my music too because of the messages. It is hard to say. It really is hard to say.

Sounds like you have a demographic. It goes anywhere. Yeah, it definitely does. I am asking mostly because my audience on this show is really two groups. Young adults in high school and college, and then their parents. We often talk about different topics associated with mental health and wellness. Believe it or not, music comes up a lot as a coping skill and as a soothing mechanism. It is a go-to for a lot of people because people are constantly with their phones, and they have their music.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jordyn Sugar | Empowered Pop

 

How Music Taps Into Your Mental Health

They are one step away from putting the earbuds in and just listening. A lot of my patients over the years who have excessive anxiety have really turned to music as a way to cope and a way to ground themselves. It fits in really nicely with the concept of empowered pop and kids really turning to that to feel positive and to feel good, versus the negative music that can come through. I am curious about your thoughts in general on young adults and their wellness or their mental health. How does music fit into that?

Music is a good outlet to cope with a lot of emotions. There are so many artists, like Billie Eilish, who talk about mental health in every song. It is a little more on the depressing side, but there is something to be said about listening to what you are feeling. I know when I am in a bad mood, you might think to turn on a positive song, but there might be a song that is explaining exactly how I am feeling, and it makes you understand yourself better, or it makes you feel not alone. A lot of music does that. If you are having a certain thought, there is a song that reflects it. There are so many songs in the world.

There are a hundred thousand songs uploaded to Spotify a day. There is going to be someone talking about exactly what you are feeling. Most of the time, you think you are alone, but I can tell you that most people are feeling exactly the way you are. I realized that through music. I think mental health and music go hand in hand because a lot of artists have mental health issues. I think they just put their feelings into lyrics and melodies. Listening to what somebody else is singing about makes you feel a little bit better and makes you feel like you are not alone. That is kind of why.

A lot of artists have mental health issues, and they put their feelings into lyrics and melodies. Share on X

I would agree. I have been to many concerts over the years with my kids, my family, and friends. I would say that the number one show I have ever seen was when we went to see Post Malone. Post Malone got up on stage and, in between songs, he talked about mental health. I thought it was so impressive, honest, and genuine. I started paying attention to it. You are right. Lots of musicians are doing that, and they are putting clips out on social media about it. For young adults, when they hear musicians talking so openly and honestly about their own struggles and their own mental health, it is validating. It is validating for kids to know we are all human beings, and we are all susceptible. Quite frankly, as you just said, many of us have struggles.

Even if it is not out there in the public, most of us do have our struggles. I actually just wrote a song about it, not too long ago, that will be coming out soon. Speaking about just the feeling of being overwhelmed, anxiety, and feeling like you are at the edge, and you are not really sure where you are going next, and being uncertain. The next song that is coming out in a few months is about mental health awareness, for the most part, and the ups and downs of life. I am excited for that.

Those types of songs really resonate with lots and lots of people. Do we have a name for the song yet?

It is called Underwater.

Enjoying The Young Adult Life Outside Of Music

You guys heard it first here, Underwater. Keep an eye out for it in a couple of months from Jordyn. That sounds really exciting. Jordyn, tell me, I am curious, outside of music, do you have time to just be a young adult?

I need to write the best music. There is something to be said about going out with your friends and going to bars and clubs and seeing what is out there to be inspired to write. There are times I think, “I have not lived enough to write a song like this.” I need to go and live it, and then I can write about it. If I have not lived this experience, I have no right to write it if I do not even know what is happening.

My music is heavily inspired by experience or a universal topic that I can resonate with. I do have time to be a young adult. I do go out with my friends. I meet people. I do not like being home too often. I work from my studio, and I am at the studio, or I am doing content. When I can get out and just be 22 and do whatever I need to do aside from music, I definitely do that. I definitely need time for that. I think it is important.

I am really glad to hear that happens. I have to ask, have you met Justin?

No, I have not met Justin.

Justin, if you are listening, come on, contact Jordyn. Hopefully, you guys will be able to meet one day. He sounds like he was a part of your early story.

He is the reason I continued. I was having a lot of anxiety about the posting. I had a few thousand followers, but I really did not think I was all that. People were saying you are great, and I appreciated it, but in my mind, I was like, “I am okay.” It would take me hours to film a video. Sometimes it would take me five hours to sing one little 30-second thing for TikTok. I would keep going, I would lose my voice, and I would keep posting.

I would get so aggravated if I only got 100 views. I was just like, “Maybe I s***, maybe this is not for me.” I kept going. It was four months later when he posted me because people said I sounded like a young Bieber. It is that moment that I was like, “If Bieber posted me to his story, maybe I have to stop second-guessing myself.” Right after that moment, I could tell you my mind 180’d, and I was like, “I guess I am pretty good. I am going to keep going.”

There you go. I love that story.

A boost of little something to remind me to “Stop doubting and that I am on the right path.”

I love that story. Maybe one day he will contact you, and you can open up for him. That would be great.

That is the goal.

In all seriousness, I think having mentors in our lives and having people that affect us and hold that mirror up and show us, “You’re damn good at this,” is incredibly powerful and so important. Many of my young adults come into my office regularly, and we speak virtually regularly. I hear things like, “There is nothing special about me.” It just makes me want to scream. For every young person who says that, there is a list of things that are special about them. They just do not know it yet.

I will say the same thing. A lot of people come into my life, and they will be like, “I am so jealous. You have so much talent. I do not have a talent.” It is not that you do not have a talent, you just have not found it yet. I say the same thing. You just have to keep trying things. Everyone has something that they are good at, even if you do not know it, you know?

It is not that you do not have talent. You just have not found it yet. Share on X

Your spirit and your fortitude through doing what you are doing are incredible. For so many young people, if they do not get immediate success, they give up. When you find your passion, and clearly music is your passion, chase it. You are going to have those days that feel great, and you are going to have those days that s*** and are really frustrating. Hopefully, many more wonderful days. I would imagine, having talked to other musicians, that it is like any other career.

You are going to have your frustrations that come your way. I have to say, you are definitely a role model for many, Jordyn. Young people are looking for those passions and struggling to think, “I will never find it.” They will. I did not find mine until I was a junior in college. I think I was 20 or 21. Not that much different in age than you. I found it by accident. We will go into that story. To me, I love being a counselor, and it sounds like you love being a musician. I hope that for every young person who is tuning in, they find their passion as well.

Me too.

Jordyn’s Nominee For The Next Guest

Jordyn, listen, I really appreciate you spending some time with us. I know you are busy, taking some time out of your schedule and making it happen to spend some time on the show with us. I really appreciate that time. One last question for you. I ask a lot of my guests to nominate a friend, a coworker, or a relative. Someone you know who you think would be good for me to interview next, just to keep the conversation moving forward. Anybody come to mind?

My good friend, who is also an influencer and a magician. His name is Raphael La Ferrara. He goes by Rafi. He is huge in Montreal with millions of followers. His message is all about “never give up.” We have shows together. I am participating in his show in April. We are very close, and I think he would be good to try to get in contact with if you can.

I will get his contact info from you offline. I appreciate you nominating him, and I will try to get him on a future show. That sounds like a really good interview.

For sure.

Jordyn, thanks again. I really appreciate it. To everyone, be on the lookout for all the new stuff coming your way through Jordyn Sugar. Jordyn, thanks again.

Thank you so much.

Have a good one. Take care.

You too. Bye.

 

Important Links

 

About Jordyn Sugar

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jordyn Sugar | Empowered PopToday on Normalize It Forward, I’m joined by Jordyn Sugar, a Canadian singer-songwriter and pop artist whose music centers on empowerment, authenticity, and self-expression.

Jordyn first connected with a wide audience through social media, using music as a way to speak honestly about confidence, growth, and finding your voice—especially during moments when life feels uncertain. Her sound blends pop, R&B, and dance influences, but at the heart of her work is a clear message: being yourself is powerful.

Beyond the music, Jordyn is passionate about using her platform to encourage self-belief and emotional openness, making her a natural fit for conversations that matter. I’m excited to talk with her about creativity, confidence, and what it means to normalize the inner work we all do—especially as young people finding their way.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Steve Shenbaum | Communication And Connection

 

Communication and connection are often the first things to erode when life gets busy, yet they are the very foundation of strong teams, healthy families, and personal well-being. Steve Shenbaum brings decades of experience working with athletes, leaders, and organizations to explore how trust is built through small, consistent actions rather than big moments. As the conversation unfolds, he reflects on the role of discipline, the impact of constant information, and the quiet power of presence, offering a perspective that feels both practical and deeply human. What emerges is a reminder that meaningful connection is not complicated, but it does require intention, awareness, and a willingness to show up differently.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

—

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Communication And Connection: What High-Performing Teams Get Right With Steve Shenbaum

Welcome to the show. We are here to talk about mental health and wellness with Steve Shenbaum. Steve is the founder and president of Game On Nation, a nationally recognized communication and leadership firm. A former actor and comedian, Steve has spent nearly three decades developing MILE™. An interactive game-based curriculum rooted in the science of game dynamics, helping teams strengthen communication, leadership, and culture.

Game On was based at IMG Academy for nearly a decade, where Steve and his team led communication and leadership training for thousands of elite athletes, executives, and organizations. He works with Fortune 100 companies, professional and college sports teams, government agencies, and all of the branches of the US military.

Steve has trained twelve number one overall draft picks, worked with Olympic and World Cup champions, and recently had his work featured on HBO’s Hard Knocks with the Buffalo Bills. He has been featured in outlets like Sports Illustrated, The New York Times, ESPN, and ABC News. Steve currently lives in Florida with his wife, Jacky, and their two daughters. Steve, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Marc. That was a really nice intro. I appreciate your honoring my backstory a little bit.

The Science Of Connection: Improvisation And The Three Rules

I really want to hear all about Game On. I am fascinated by it. As you mentioned, Bob introduced us. Bob Delaney, a show coming up soon for those who tune in regularly. I really want to hear all about Game On. I am fascinated by the whole communication piece. What can you tell us about Game On?

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Steve Shenbaum | Communication And Connection

 

In a nutshell, we focus on connection. We use improvisation as a gateway to create that connection. This new framework that we are really focusing on is the idea of self, others, and purpose. We are going on 30 years of doing this, which is wild. Our audiences are threefold. Junior, college, and professional athletes. I put that in one section. The junior being that we were with IMG for so long.

Junior, college, and professional athletes and teams, corporations that you mentioned, and also the military and government. The curriculum is very similar for all three of those groups. Which you would think is, they are not all similar, but the curriculum is. What is the idea of using improvisation to create connection? We have three rules of the game. I will toss it back to you. Let us hear. Laugh with, not at. Have each other’s back. Celebrate small wins.

Laugh with, not at. You will lose some jokes, but you are gaining a ton of trust. Have each other’s back. Does not mean you have to be best friends, but just honor one another. Celebrate small wins. Do not just wait for epic victories because that could be a tiresome journey. Those are our three rules of the game. I love it. It is all about connection.

As a family therapist, the words connection and communication are vital. It is vital not only to the teams we are on, but also to the families we are in. I love what you said. I love those rules. They are great. I just love the connection and the cohesiveness. As a very average athlete myself throughout the years, I have always been fascinated by it. I am 5 feet 6 inches, so not exactly a large-statured individual. I am always fascinated by what happens.

I will tell you a quick, funny story. What happens when a whole bunch of 5-foot-6-inch guys play basketball, and they beat a whole bunch of 6-foot-10-inch guys? That actually happened. We got on the court once to play pickup, and everybody underestimated us. We figured out our strength, but we did a lot of what you just said. We communicated well, and we created a connection. To me, that overpowers a lot of things.

First of all, I love that story. Now people can visualize a bunch of 5-foot-6-inchers. I am 5 feet 5.5 inches, but a bunch of point guards are playing against the tall guys. It points out something that is really important in terms of connection. As husbands and wives, as uncles and aunts, as parents, as coaches, unity is way more powerful than elite all-stars coming together. There is an elite all-star dynamic that you can have in the sports world, in the corporate world, and in the military space, which can be pretty incredible.

Unity is way more powerful than elite all-stars coming together. Share on X

There is something that the elite all-star dynamic might be lacking, which is familiarity with one another, connection with one another, and trust with one another. Interestingly, you teed up that scenario. Without knowing the details, I would say the 5-foot-6-inch team had some laughter. There had to be some humor involved. It was a little bit of an underestimation by the opponent, which is always interesting. There was unity. You all had an incentive that you were driving toward. Not to knock the tall players or disparage them. It is just interesting.

It gets me thinking, too. I am thinking of those three groups. The pro athletes, the corporations, and the military. Obviously, for so many of them, connection and communication have become an issue. I am wondering from your perspective, when you begin to implement those things that you mentioned earlier, and those connections get created. What do you start noticing as effects from that?

The first one is that there is laughter in the room. I do not mean laughter, Marc, in terms of the set-up punchline joke. I just think when people start to connect. When you meet someone, and they have the same birthday, what do you do? You do not get angry. You do not say, “That is my birthday. You cannot have it.” That would be my answer. I am going to keep it simple.

When you earn the right to show a high-performing team, which could be any, could be the five-sixers, could be the six-tenners, could be the special ops, could be the Fortune 500 company, could be the startup company, whatever it may be. When you introduce respectfully and authentically the connection piece of humor and laughter, and laugh with them, the first thing that comes is trust. From trust, the guard goes down.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Steve Shenbaum | Communication And Connection

 

You start to see some real creativity and real humor. Not laughing because someone told a funny joke. Laughing because you are like, “I did not think that,” or “No way, I did not know that about you,” or “I did not know Marc played hoops in intramural in college.” Those discussions start to happen. You start to get to know one another a little better, which then builds trust. When we get to know each other better, we start to see each other as human beings.

I am thinking back to the good teams that I have watched on TV and how it seems like they enjoy each other. You can almost picture off the field, they would want to hang out because they have that connection. As opposed to teams, we have seen that you do not want to hang around each other.

Especially in your field as a therapist who has earned the right and has the authority to bring expertise to the table. Also, for those of us who are not therapists, parents, teachers, coaches, or leaders. Encouragement I want to give everyone based on those three rules of the game is to cherish them, but do not overplay them. This is actually where I am in the phase of my career now, Marc, as we talk about wellness and mental health and connection.

We have to be careful with all this goodness that we have, like “Laugh with me,” so that you do not overplay it. For example, if a team enjoys each other’s company and they have fun with one another, it is awesome. As parents and coaches, we do not double down on that because there is a challenge if we go from joy and laughter to just a complete lack of seriousness all the time. Do not take something that is working well and double it. Just keep working it well.

The High-Performer’s Secret: Discipline In An Over-Informed World

It is really good advice. That is up to the manager or the person running things to recognize where that line is. To take the goodness out of that. Out of curiosity, you have been around a lot of people. Athletic, high-achieving, military individuals. Are there things you have learned about people over the years, Steve?

When you say that, I want to say that people have changed, or common denominators that they have with the high-performing space. I will start with the common denominator in high performers. Discipline. Being able to do high-performing people, no matter what age, do what is good versus what feels good. More than not. What I mean by that could be, “I do not want to work out.” I know, but you may need to. “I do not want to take that critical feedback.”

The common denominator among high performers is discipline — doing what is good over what feels good. Share on X

I know, but you may need to. I do not want to overplay discipline. It is not like people are 100% at this. No one has mastered it. The high performers that I have seen in three decades of doing work, the common denominator that is most pervasive is a sense of discipline. Discipline does not mean you have to get up and run a marathon every morning. Let us go with the young people. We have all been young people, and I am raising two young people.

I have a fourteen-year-old daughter and an eleven -year-old daughter. There is discipline needed in their homework assignment. Did they get their lunch ready for the next day? Are they bringing their flute to school on Tuesday, which they were asked to do? Those things that all of us parents have to navigate through. I am trying to embed in our children a sense of discipline. The other part where I thought you were trending was where I saw some changes in behavior.

Obviously, I just held up the phone. That is a no-brainer. Social media, I get that. I want to go further. What I am finding among high performers is that it goes back to discipline. We are not wired for this level of information at our fingertips. That is the other common theme I am seeing. We have access to so much information. I would say that many of the audiences I am working with, and I put myself in this, Marc, we are overstuffed. We are over-informed. We are not geared for this level of content barrage.

That is interesting. Since the advent of AI, I feel like it has put us in positions to not really think critically. I know people who, the second a decision or a question comes up, that is where they turn. Whereas 5 or 10 years ago, that was not the case. It does make me wonder about what direction that moves us in. I love what you said earlier, and I think a lot of parents understand this.

We are not wired for this level of information at our fingertips — we are overstuffed and over-informed. Share on X

Discipline is really, from parent to child, you are teaching that, and eventually you are going to pass that baton to them. I try to point that out to my patients who come in. Why do mom and dad do this? Why do they care if you bring your flute? Why do they care if you do your homework? Eventually, that is going to be yours.

You are really good at what you do, Marc.

Thank you.

Your tone is encouraging. Discipline is hard because it is hard. Meaning if we are a parent and our goal is to be best friends with our children, discipline will not be the first option. Empowering will be, or we are going to encourage. Those are wonderful too. Discipline is not a hot topic. Imagine I am a keynote speaker.

We are called to be loved and respected by our children, but not necessarily liked all the time. Share on X

I am going to win the audience over by being like, “We are going to talk about discipline now.” You are like, “I cannot wait.” I hope we then get into feedback, and I hope it is critical. After that, maybe we’ll talk about doing hard things. That is the laughter I am talking about. We as parents, coaches, teachers, and leaders are all of these things, and most of your audiences and viewers are in that category.

I encourage all of us to put discipline as a top priority and then be prepared that your child may not like you all the time. That is okay. I am struggling with it. My fourteen-year-old and eleven-year-old do not always like Dad because I say, “Where is your flute? Is the flute not supposed to be in the back seat of the car on Tuesday and Thursday?” That is not a metaphor, literally. Where is your flute, Bailey? You were supposed to have it.

You know this, Steve, but they are not supposed to like us all the time. We are probably doing our job wrong.

I agree with you. We are then back to what we talked about. We are overplaying it. It is easy. I can say, “I want to be empowering. I want to empower my children.” If you overplay that and you are enabling, or “I want to honor and speak life.” I hear that a lot. “I speak life to my children.” Great. If you overplay that, you are never saying no. All of this is good until we overplay it. We are called for our children to respect and obviously love us, but certainly not like us all the time.

Digital Discipline: Modeling Connection For The Next Generation

Your word you started with is connection. For so many parents, that is what they are looking for. They are looking for a connection with their kids. They want to maintain that as they get older. There are so many layers to it. We have to be uncomfortable sometimes. They have to be uncomfortable sometimes. Parenting is the hardest job I have ever had.

It just pushes us in ways that nothing else really can. Let me jump in for a minute, specifically on mental health and wellness. I am just curious about the overlay with this. Here you are, your company focuses so much on the connection and the communication, and how that shapes and assists teams.

There has been a huge influx of young adults with both anxiety and depression, among other things. It has really overshadowed a lot of different things. It has changed people’s high school trajectory. It has changed the athletes’ trajectory. It has ended careers in some cases. I am wondering from the Game On position, tell us a little bit about how you see mental health and wellness for young people.

It goes back to what we were discussing on the phone. Young people have access to so much information that it can be a beauty and it can be a challenge. It is the information on where people are, information on comparison, information on just what is going on in the news, information on who is an influencer, and making money on the side hustle. “I am not worthy.” All of those components are in play. That I see as pervasive.

We should be intentional about disconnecting so we can connect. Share on X

I will tell you, Marc, I do not know if we as adults are massively any different. We are just a little bit older. We sit here and say, “These kids are on the phone.” I am on the phone too. What I see is an over-information society right now. I do not think it is relegated to just our high school and college-age children. I am always about, and we talked about this before the podcast, I am always about, “What is the solution?”

Here is the other thing, Marc, and you do this for a living, so I appreciate it. If we just talk about this all the time, we are just going to be in a cycle of talking about it. As parents, the solution is to model the behavior that you are looking for with your children. As easy as it is to work really hard and then sit on that brown leather couch with a glass of wine or some food and just scroll on our LinkedIn or our Facebook, our children are watching. We should be really intentional about disconnecting so we can connect.

If that means taking a walk, if that means going and throwing the ball with your child, that means helping them with their math assignment, that is just as challenging for you as a parent as it is for their child, because math has changed so ridiculously that I do not understand the equation. All of these things, do it, and it goes back to discipline. That is a way for me to get to it. I see a lot of anxiety, but I also think that we, as leaders, parents, and coaches, can help mitigate that by doing very simple things with our children. That might seem so pedantic to us, and it might be wildly revolutionary for our child.

The Professional Trap: Prioritizing The Right Audience

That is amazing, Steve. Well said. Those little things that we either do currently or know how to do, and we are not sharing with our kids, whether it be yoga, working out, journaling, taking a walk, or just turning off all the gadgets and hanging out. I love it when families say, “We played a board game last night.” Those things to me, I feel like as a parent, my kids are older, my kids are 25 and 23.

As a parent, I feel like one of my roles is the manager of a team. It is my job in some ways to set that tone and to point out to my kids, “Look, I am a human being. I am disciplined with certain things, and there are certain things I am just simply not.” It is a work in progress. I love what you said. I think of parents as that toy that your kids have without the off switch. We are always teaching all the time, whether we want to or not.

If we are mindful of that, we are really paying attention. If we are sitting around scrolling on our phones and then we ask our kids not to use their tech as much, we are really sending the wrong message. I love the solution, which I think is the practicality of that, and for parents to walk away saying, “I like what Steve and Marc were talking about just in terms of what can we do?”

I love that you are going that route. Another, just going with practical, we call them good-to-dos. Good-to-know is what we are talking about. Good-to-know is, “Social media can be exhausting, and there is so much information, and we are all scrolling.” It is important to acknowledge what is good to know. The good-to-dos are really simple. They are so simple that I think as adults we will sometimes be like, “That cannot be it.” It could be like asking good questions.

It could let your child finish their sentence. It could be that the message you are sharing may not resonate for years. That is probably the hardest one. Trust that you are planting seeds. These are all, just have a cell phone down at dinner. Anyway, all of these things. Parenting is really challenging. The other note I want to give you is, I think it is important for all of us, you have a profession, and you are really good at what you do, Marc.

I am focusing on running my business, and those parents and teachers, I always say parents, teachers, leaders, coaches, because I feel like everyone falls under that category. You are leading your children. You are coaching. I can only speak for myself. I speak in front of lots of audiences. Thousands of people, sometimes 25 people, sometimes 5,000. It is so important. I am struggling with this, so I am being vulnerable.

It is so important that we do not let our business audience become more important than our family audience. It is so important. Listen, I could become one of your clients’ best friends because you are seeing them for one hour a week, and you are there to support them. They applaud you, but you are not doing life with them, Marc. I am not doing life with this room of 500 executives. They have been seeing me for an hour and a half. I know what I am doing. I am very good at what I do.

I teach my session. I have my improv games. I laugh. We go through the process. I speak life into them. They are empowered, and off they go. Of course, they are going to be like, “You are great,” because they do not see me in my mind. Parents, we must make sure that we do not put the audience that is easy to win over ahead of the most important audience, which is our partner, our spouse, our significant other, our children, our nieces, our nephews, and our immediate family, in all of our imperfections. Family first.

Red Ball Theory: Utilizing Play As A Strategic Pivot

I love that. I have to tell you, your intro, Steve, is impressive. I did a lot of homework and read about all the things that you have done, and you are very good at what you do. There is one really important thing that I can hear in your voice that you do really well. You like to have fun.

I try not to take things so seriously. It puts me in a position of joy and gratitude. I am not always on. I appreciate that compliment, Marc. I always counter it by saying that for the audiences and viewers, it does not mean that everything is rainbows and unicorns throughout the day. I really try to default to levity, joy, gratitude, and humor without overplaying it. Nothing is serious.

I will tell you an interesting story about that. I counted once. I coached my son’s baseball team for nineteen seasons. It was a long time all the way through. Lots of practice, lots of fun. I always said to him I had the best seat in the house to watch him play, and it was my privilege to do that. I remember one particular practice where I had a bunch of 10-year-olds or 11-year-olds out on the field, and they were being really difficult with each other, sniping at each other, and really having a hard time. I was really frustrated and did not know what to do. I made a really good decision in retrospect.

I went out to my car, and I had a red kickball in my car. I got the kickball, and I came back to the field, and I said, “Everyone put their gloves down.” They thought I was crazy. I said, “We are playing kickball today.” They are like, “What is going on, coach?” I said, “We are playing kickball. We are having fun.” Wouldn’t you know it, little by little, the parents outside the fence came onto the field. Before I knew it, everyone was laughing. Everyone was having fun. It was the best practice I ever had. I tell you that story because we lose sight of the fact that we do these things for enjoyment. We are supposed to. You ask me what our records were. I have no idea. I do not remember.

They will not either. Coach Lehman brought out that red ball. When these young men and women are in their mid-twenties, they are going to carry that forward. I actually love that story you just told. There is a speaker in my industry called Kevin Carroll. Great presenter. He has a focus on the power of play. He talks about this red ball theory. What is behind that?

There is dopamine release, there is serotonin release, there is safety. There is also a little bit of a pivot. We are doing a cone drill. We know as coaches there are orange cones out there, but the kids, if we can remember that and now start to think, where are there other ways in our lives? Not just as parents of younger people, but as parents.

As you say, you have children in their twenties. As leaders, coaches, businessmen, and women. How can we find ways to put red ball theory in play, to put humor in play, to put cone drill in play? It does not mean every day in the office you go to the fun zone and jump around on a trampoline. That is not what we are talking about. Really good story on the red ball. I love it.

Good To Know Vs. Good To Do: Reclaiming Personal Wellness

I appreciate it. Life right now can be really hard for some families. Take those breaks and really enjoy the time that you have with your kids. My kids have been off to school, and I know what that feels like as a parent. They leave the house, and it is like, “All right.” As a parent, there are a lot of shifts that we go through. I have learned over the years to appreciate every moment that you have.

As you say, it is not always roses and sunshine. We have a job to do in many ways as parents. Steve, I really appreciate your spending time with us. I am really fascinated by Game On. I am wondering, down the road, let us say parents, coaches, or the military are tuning in. How do they get a hold of you?

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Steve Shenbaum | Communication And Connection

 

It is very kind of the promoter. I always do this. My team laughs at me. I say “WWW”. I do not need to say “WWW” anymore. Got it. My fourteen-year-old is like, “Dad, I think we know.”

That is old school.

“Go to the World Wide Web.”

I am so old that I remember when it came out.

Our website is GameOnNation.com. On that site, you can see our core programs are tailored and the custom programs that we do live. We also have virtual training, and we are building what we call asynchronous on-demand training as well to help address some of the things you and I have discussed. The power of play, what is good to know versus good to do, using improvisation as a gateway to land on some practicality. I am passionate about this.

I do want to briefly share what you talked about with the red ball. It is really important. I want to encourage your audiences. The red ball, the orange cone, and the board game, these things are all fairly accessible, and they are fairly well-priced. Meaning that most of these antidotes are free. If I am in the business of making money off of your illness, I do not want you to play with a red ball, and I do not want you to take a walk, and I do not want you to play catch because it does not play into my business model.

I am just a little bit more toward the challenge side than the support side. I know you talk about this as well, but I just want to encourage everyone. If you are scrolling and you are reading about various sales that are out there, many times, they are not interested in your wellness. They are interested in you needing their product.

It really comes down to our pivot as a parent. Are we willing to pivot? That is why I tell the story. Had I not left that field that day, I would not have taught myself that lesson. I always tell parents to be willing. Be willing to see what is out there and recognize that if we pivot, there is a whole tidal wave that happens as a result. Steve, thanks for spending the time with us. I really appreciate it. I had shared with you offline.

One of the things that the show began doing last year was having people recommend a friend, a coworker, or a relative. You were so kind as to recommend people offline to us. I thank you for that. I will work to get them on the show in the future. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know you are super busy. Telling us all about Game On and sharing your information. We really appreciate it.

Thanks so much, Marc. Great conversation.

Have a great day. Take care, Steve.

 

Important Links

 

About Steve Shenbaum

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Steve Shenbaum | Communication And ConnectionSteve Shenbaum is the Founder and President of Game On Nation, a nationally recognized communication and leadership firm. A former actor and comedian, Steve has spent nearly three decades developing MILE™, an interactive, game-based curriculum rooted in the science of Game Dynamics, helping teams strengthen communication, leadership, and culture.

Game On was based at IMG Academy for nearly a decade, where Steve and his team led communication and leadership training for thousands of elite athletes, executives, and organizations. Today, he works with Fortune 100 companies, professional and college sports teams, government agencies, and all branches of the U.S. Military.

Steve has trained 12 #1 overall draft picks, worked with Olympic and World Cup champions, and recently had his work featured on HBO’s Hard Knocks with the Buffalo Bills. He’s been featured in outlets like Sports Illustrated, The New York Times, ESPN, and ABC News.

Steve lives in Bradenton, Florida with his wife Jacky and their two daughters.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Vince Benevento | Mental Health

 

Vince Benevento of Causeway Collaborative believes the conventional approach to supporting young men’s mental health is fundamentally flawed. Statistics show that 80% to 90% of boys who need help aren’t getting it. Whether they’re dealing with substance use issues, college academic probation, or just feeling “stuck,” many young men resist being dragged along to therapy. In this powerful conversation, Vince—a licensed professional counselor and a former “wayward young man” himself—shares his revolutionary methodology. He details how Causeway Collaborative empowers young men (ages 16–30) to take ownership of their own care by focusing on action, physical movement, and building structure and routine, rather than relying on quick fixes and labels. This is essential reading for any parent seeking to support their son without pushing too hard or pulling away completely.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

The Unconventional Path To Supporting Young Men’s Mental Health: Why ‘Meeting Them Where They Are’ Works With Vince Benevento

I am super excited to invite in a colleague and a friend Vince Benevento of Causeway Collaborative. Vince, how are you?

I’m good, Marc. I appreciate you having me. This is great.

Thanks for being here, Vince. I appreciate it. Vince is a licensed professional counselor, a long-time advocate for young men navigating mental health school, school career, and life transitions through his business Causeway Collaborative. He’s helped hundreds of families move out of stuck patterns and into clearer and more grounded paths forward by blending clinical insight with real world mentorship and coaching.

What I appreciate about Vince is his work and how he meets young men where they are without labels, pressure or quick fixes. He helps families understand what’s going on beneath the surface. This conversation is especially relevant for parents who are trying to support their sons without pushing too hard or pulling away completely. Vince, welcome.

It’s so good to be here.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Vince Benevento | Mental Health

 

Thanks for being here. I appreciate it. I know you’ve been going through a ton with your family and without getting into the specifics, Vince has moved mountains to be with us. I truly appreciate that and wish you and your family all the best moving forward. Vince and I met a couple of years back. We knew from the get-go that there was a connection. One of the biggest connections we have is our dual role of being dads and being helpers. We’ll get into that in a minute, but I want to start off with telling my readers what Causeway Collaborative is.

Marc, thanks for having me. We were quick pals when we first met years ago. I’m a big fan of yours in what you do. One of the reasons why we hit it off is because we practice our craft differently than most. Causeway is a manifestation of my way of envisioning mental health for men and young men. I’m pretty transparent about this, but like I am and was like a wayward young man. I had pretty significant mental health challenges as a teenager and young adult, substance use issues. I bombed out of college at nineteen years old.

I was a stuck kid. I was very resistant to conventional mental health support in the form of therapy. My parents try to bring me to therapy for years and I stiff armed them pretty effectively for those years. Through the support of many other people and adults who came into my life, friends and a girlfriend, I eventually got my act together. I realized that I wanted to do stuff like this once I was able to figure my own stuff out.

For me, Causeway was a place to have young men take responsibility for their own mental health. I work with guys ages 16 to 30. When you work with guys 16 to let’s say, 25 or maybe even 30. Oftentimes, it’s the parents dragging guys along through their course of treatment as they’re pretty resistant to that process.

The “Action-First” Philosophy Of Causeway Collaborative

What we do at Causeway right from the rip is positioning this process as that man or young man’s process and charge him to take ownership of his own care. We give him autonomy to determine what he wants to do and doesn’t want to do with respect to his work. We asked him to develop his own goals. We give him an ala carte menu of the services that we offer to do some direction and support.

We make young men and men responsible for their own process. We’re also about action. That resonates with the guys who come through. Many guys who come through Causeway are stuck, confused and just uncertain about what to do next and what even makes sense. What we do is literally get guys moving, get their bodies moving, get them well, get them active, and get them physically doing more stuff than they were. We also get them doing stuff right.

The tour becomes a very practical utilization of a step base plan to make them feel better than when they did when they arrived. Through the scaffolding of that process and the cumulative effect of them moving and making headway week over week. We can then often back our way into this deeper, more introspective work later on with guys like Marc and other partners that we have. For us, it’s about just getting things going and pushing the ball downfield in whatever way that guy decides is meaningful to them.

Causeway is a place where young men could take responsibility for their own mental health. Share on X

I’ve been practicing a long time, Vince. There’s nothing like Causeway. You folks are unique. People ask me all the time, “Are they an IOP or a PHP?” There is a supportive program that addresses things in a different way, and you hit the nail on the head. I appreciate that, Vince, mostly because so much of the other way doesn’t work very well. That’s no knock-on providers. I mean it from a kid’s perspective.

You look at stats, 80% to 90% of kids, boys, that need help aren’t getting it. That’s a crazy number. Like me, you ask that question why and try to answer that with what you do. I want my parents here reading to know this. I’ve had kids in your program that have not been reached by anybody else but you folks. It’s because you folks go back to our side door, front door, and upside down to reach these kids. That’s what it takes.

First of all, that is incredibly kind. You’re good at what you do, so that matters to me. Thank you very much for that. I would say I started doing homework many years ago. The way in which that influenced this program and me as a practitioner was as you said. I started in a paradigm wherein there were no boundaries and parameters around what you could and couldn’t do, as long as it was safe and ethically responsible. You could go do it.

You could take a kid down the street and grab an ice cream cone and walk back to his house. You could go play basketball. You could go throw the football. You could find a guy who played guitar, bring him into session and help him play music for a kid who wants to learn how to play music. I came from a lens where we started with a world where everything was possible. We then had to narrow the funnel and figure out what to do with a kid that was going to resonate with him.

The other thing you alluded to is kids hate this. Part of my own journey was like, I was a guy who hated this. I felt diminished as a fact that I needed the support. I hated that I had issues, mental health and substance. I came from a broken family. I had a lot of traumas associated with that stuff. I just hated that I was spending my time as a 20 something or a 19-year-old doing this and trying to get help. We also start from a place of like, you got to get a kid to want to come back.

It’s not about telling him how much his life sucks and how afflicted he is. You got to get a kid to want to come back the next week and the next week after that to even start the work. We try to make the relationship enjoyable for the young man at its core. In addition to that, find activities that are particularly enjoyable to this young man. When you layer like an interest set on top of a favorable relationship and positive male mentorship. You’re adding some ingredients that are not present in the typical medical model of practice. If we start there it’s a pretty good place to start.

It’s a great place to start. Honestly, you got me thinking a bit about what it’s like to be male. From a young age, we’re told, “Get back up. Don’t cry. Suck it up. Whatever.” Throw any phrase you want out there but it’s basically, don’t have feelings, keep moving forward, and keep stuff in. We take those same boys, 15, 16, or 17 and put them in a highly stressful environment like high school. We expect we’re going to just walk into a therapist office and that person’s going to open up and talk.

Reciprocity In The Therapeutic Relationship

By the way, that relationship is a one-way road. Not a two-way road. You’re supposed to dump your guts out young man. That dude is never going to tell you anything about him ever at all. The model and the framework is flawed and it’s very national. We teach young men that relationships are supposed to be reciprocal and equitable. Yet the therapeutic construct is only a one-way road that you pour your guts out and you never get anything back in return.

Let me put you on the spot then. We’re talking to Vince at seventeen. You’re offering the seventeen-year-old Vince some advice. He’s effing up in places. He’s using drugs, substances and all that stuff. Here you are, you get his ear and you can offer him some of that advice. What do you tell him?

That’s a good one. I would tell him a lot of things. I’ll try out boil it down to one or two. I would reflect to him that he is not okay. The people around him know that he’s not okay and are gravely concerned about him. As a seventeen-year-old man, I don’t think I know people were gravely concerned about me. I didn’t care because of how much I was hurting, how destructive and self-destructive I was as a result of how much I was hurting.

I would take my best pitch, whoever that was back then. I’ll protect his anonymity now. I’ll put him in front of me and say, “Your family and everybody in your life is gravely concerned about you. Bad things are going to happen to you if you don’t adjust and correct.” I would deliver that message. I would offer to him that he needed to make some aggressive lifestyle shifts. I was drinking and doing drugs at 17 or 18 years old, in a way that had I not gotten sober at 22. I would be dead now. There’s no question about it. I would forecast that an abrupt turn of hand was coming and it was necessary to save my life.

Well said, Vince. I also can’t help but think. When we were kids, drugs and alcohol were bad enough. There are 100 times worse now. I had a parent earlier. They were talking about their kid who’s seventeen who’s using 85% THC. To give parents a sense, average THC levels were like 12% when we were kids. We’re talking about nuclear warfare in terms of substances. Ethanol in the head, Vince.

When kids are hurting, they know they’re hurting. They’re very aware they’re hurting, especially boys. They’re good at fine goods and okay. “How are you doing?” “I’m fine.” “Leave me alone.” It’s finding a way in there. I want my family to understand this and that, most especially boys. You can’t go in the front door. The front door is locked.

Giving Voice To Family Chaos

This isn’t for everybody. This was certainly for me. My world was falling apart around me. My parents’ marriage was imploding. My mom was going through her stuff. My dad was very much going through his, but none of that was discussed. None of it. My own manifestation of my acting out behavior was my response to the chaos around me that nobody was talking about at all. You can see it with your eyeballs. You could hear it with your ears, but no one was talking about it.

A message to parents out there is you have to give voice to the stuff that is happening around your kids. Otherwise, they’re going to lose their mind like I did when I was seventeen because they’re going to have their own response to this stuff. It’s important to take control of that narrative as a parent. Take responsibility for your piece where it exists and begin to shape that struggle for your kid.

You said something important and that is making a large shift. I’m trying to remember your words. Making a large shift is hard. If someone says, “You got to lose some weight.” I got to like making some changes in whatever I eat. I’m working out. Why do you think it’s so hard for people to get to the gym? Making a hard change like that is not easy but echo what you said. They’re forward path changes even when small changes get put in place.

No question. A little bit of a segue but on topic. I wrote a book. I wrote about this in the second chapter. At nineteen years old, I was coming out of a psychiatric hospitalization. I had been kicked out of college and I was 272 pounds. I’m 185 now. I was twice what I am now. By the way, all my buddies were away at school doing their thing.

I was the kid who was bumping into people’s parents at the grocery store talking about why I wasn’t away at College playing ball. When you’re sitting in that spot looking forward and looking up at the volume of change you have to make just to get back to baseline. Forget about getting ahead. It’s very hard to not get discouraged and depressed when you’re talking about that cumulative change over time.

That story resonates deeply, Vince. I’m sure my readers can certainly understand that situation. I don’t want to move past the book. Tell us about your book.

I appreciate it. I told Marc about this project a while ago. The end result is vaguely resembling the initial cadence project. The book is like a two plus year proposition, which is my own experience woven with fifteen years of practice, essentially. It’s called Boys Will Be Men: 8 Lessons for the Lost American Male. Every chapter is a unique lesson. A lesson that I learned as a man or young man, and then a case that reflects that very same lesson and how I walked alongside a guy and took him to that place.

You have to give voice to what's happening around your kids. Take responsibility for your part and help shape their struggle before they face it alone. Share on X

That’s great, Vince. Where can people get a hold of it?

On Amazon. There will be a link to my website or you can buy it on my website, and regional book retailers like Barnes and Nobles.

Get out there and get it. To my readers, there’s a lot of knowledge in Vince’s head that he’s passing along and knowledge is important. There are lessons within each of those stories and each of those scenarios. I can’t wait to get a hold of it and read through it. A lot of good information. Congratulations for getting to the finish line on that. I know it’s for a big project.

I had a long road. I had no idea what was required to write a book when I got started for sure. Probably I wouldn’t have done it if I had known. It was something that I had encouraged myself to do for a long time.

I’m curious about something, your location. You’re in West Hartford and Westport. You’ve been there for a while. You’re down in White Plains and areas that have a lot of wealth. I would imagine a lot of the young individuals you see are maybe coming from backgrounds similar to the students that I see, their heading off to college. Let me ask because I feel like I see this a lot in my office. Students that are struggling similar to the pattern we were talking about. They know they’re struggling. They’re seniors and they’re heading off the next year. College is a huge step of which most high schools don’t prep kids nearly enough in the non-academic scenarios that come up for college kids. I’m curious about your thoughts and any feedback or suggestions you might have for young adults heading in that direction.

One massive challenge for young people away at college or going away to college is the shift in calendar or shift in schedule. You’re moving from this conveyor belt framework of the previous thirteen years of your education where alarm goes off. Mom drives you or dad drives you or you drive yourself. Whatever the case may be, but your day is highly structured from 7:00 AM through to 3:00 PM. A lot of guys have activities. A lot of girls have activities after that. You’re rocking and rolling from 7:00 AM to 9:00-10:00 PM until you do your homework and you’re done with your day.

The “Abyss” Of College Free Time

In college, you may not have class 2 or 3 days a week, depending on your schedule. Weekends themselves are a complete abyss and a vacuum of open space and free time. It is the shift around the lack of accountability and the lack of personal checkpoints that you have within your given day. You got to check in with your parents, teachers, or school administrators. Within a high school setting, you probably got a coach who you’re checking in with around something.

You may not see an adult who has a stake in your life for a couple of weeks on a college campus. There’s very little accountability and you hoarding up to anybody about how you’re doing in any which domain. That’s one piece. The obvious byproduct of that is the open space and open real estate and free time. The guys who I see that struggle the most, and I was this guy who struggled like this, don’t have a stabilized structured routine and scheduled to their given day. They get up at 2:00 in the afternoon and miss a couple classes. Maybe schlep their way over to the gym. Grab a bite here. The tail wags the dog in terms of dictating what happens and when.

I got to interrupt and sleigh you down. What you just said was so important. The guys that you see that struggle the most are lacking?

Structure routine. This is good information. I was an active addict and alcoholic for my first three years of college, freshman, sophomore, and junior year. I got sober in summer going into my senior year. I went back to campus and moved out of my place with my degenerate buddies who were living in different places. I got up at 8:00 AM and went to the gym. I got a cup of coffee and went to my 9:00 AM class. At 9:00, 10:00 or 11:00 have lunch. Come home and do homework for a couple hours then go to the gym again later in the day.

I had so much time because I was starting my day. I would sleep until 11:00 or 12:00. I start my college day at 8:00 AM. I picked up a part-time job. I was tutoring kids. I was mentoring kids. I had so much time I didn’t even know what to do with it. I got so used to starting my day at 2:00 in the afternoon and just being awake from 2:00 to 1:00 AM. When I started living like a normal person, I couldn’t believe how much free time I had.

By the way, I went from like a 2.6 to 2.4 my last two semesters just because I was going to class and study for three years. There’s a ton of time to get things done at college if you’re effective and efficient with how you use your time, as I didn’t and then did in my pre-test and post-test college student days. You’d be amazed with what results can be.

I appreciate telling us that story. There’s a maturation that goes along with, “how do I use this blank canvas of time?” Some kids misuse it and join the varsity pot smoking team. Other kids will get involved. They’ll join a club and an activity. Let’s start working out. They’ll do intramurals. They’ll do this and that. It’s a world of opportunity. That word structure is super important and I want to repeat it again for parents. To me, you’re going from such a highly structured scenario to such an unstructured scenario. That point needs to be driven home with kids. I appreciate you saying that.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Vince Benevento | Mental Health

 

Even if you’re not perfect and even if you borrow 50% or 60% of the structural tenants that you had when you were in high school and what those days look like for you then. You’re still probably going to have enough structure to do just fine. It’s the guys in the girls who take advantage of the opportunity to have no structure whatsoever who get into trouble. I was certainly one of those people. A lot of the people who come across my line of sight are those people as well.

Everyone’s stories are different. One of the common scenarios that I see, especially young men. They underestimate that. They go to college and underestimate that. They start making one bad decision after another. Whether it’s skipping an 8:00 AM class or it’s stopping their workout routines because they can get away with it. No one’s on them about it.

One of the scenarios that I see a lot is those kids may get on active probation. They may get excused from school after a year, and they’re in a hole. Now they come home. It’s not unlike your scenario of events like, “I’m home.” People are constantly asking me why am I home. Some of those kids don’t get out of that hole. It can be a hard place to be. I mention it ahead of time for families because there’s plenty of things kids can do to avoid even getting into that hole in the first place.

The “Prescriptive Recipe” For Getting Out Of A Hole

Interestingly enough, one of the archetypes of the guys we’ve seen for years has been that guy, my story. The guy who fails out of school and lands at home. It’s January 13th and he’s not going back. What do I do for the next 9 months or 12 months of my life ?” It’s become a very prescriptive recipe for implementing structure in the face of the absence of structure. Every guy who fits that bill who comes to Causeway gets a job with a minimum of $25 hour per week. However, many hours he’s working is offset by the number of community college classes that he takes in addition to working the part-time that he’s working.

That guy is doing something wellness related, going to a gym or having a physical activity of some type where he’s expending that energy physically in some way within a given week. He has some type of social commitment of regularity within a week to stay connected to people, develop relationships and then build up those relationships over time. It’s through the feedback of us and the parents that young man can determine when he is or isn’t in fact ready to go back to school based upon how he’s progressing in that way.

I appreciate the description. It’s such a common one that I know you and I have come across a number of times and it’s helpful for parents to know. I’m curious. I’m going to touch on something you had mentioned. You’re referencing self-care. I know we’re both into wellness. We drink our water. We go to the gym and get it done. For me, it was one of those, I’ll do it for six months and then stop then I’ll do it. It wasn’t a perfect road.I feel like I got it down now but, I only mentioned that because I wanted to ask you. Why is self-care so important for young men? What do you think?

First and foremost, for me and a lot of other guys, it’s just having a release. There is something about that physical release in terms of balance, regulating hormones, improving and enhancing mood and stress release. There is a physical release that happens when a guy works out and does physical activity. That’s a very real piece.

Physical activity gives a release—balancing hormones, boosting mood, reducing stress. There’s something powerful that happens when you work out. Share on X

Also, self-concept and self-esteem. I was a dude who was virtually 100 pounds overweight. You don’t feel good when you’re 100 pounds overweight. You don’t feel physically, but you don’t feel good about yourself either. It’s a way that I can maintain a positive self-concept and a positive self-image for sure. There is something productive and establishing structure of the routine on a given daily basis.

I work out first thing every day. That’s what I do to start my day. It becomes the path for me every day to having a productive day. Checking that box is an important piece of that process. It’s like the make your bed speech, “When you come back, you’ve at least got a made bed.” How crummy your days been when you’ve worked out at the beginning of the day? You’ve at least worked out for the day and you’ve done a positive thing. I think of it that way, too.

I talked about that a lot with young adults. It can be overwhelming, so one of the suggestions I make is, “Do I start drinking lots of water? I started eating lots of protein. Do I start doing this? Do I start doing that?” Pick one thing and start doing it every day. As you said, Vince, it’s a matter of I’m able to look back at the day and go, “I ate well or I drank my water or I did this or I did that or I took care.” Self-care to me is all about a decision that person makes.

Self-Care As A Tool For Control

You alluded to this previously, but this is relevant to the specific example. My son’s been very sick for months. He’s got sleepless nights, stressful days and scary days for sure. Even on the days where I didn’t sleep. I walked across and grabbed my 40-pound dumbbells and did a twenty-minute workout with my 40-pound dumbbells. Only to do a thing that made me feel good about myself and give me some control over a situation I didn’t have control over. It’s a very real practical manifestation of exactly what we’re talking about. That was something I could do no matter what irrespective of my circumstances. For me, there was something powerful about that in this season.

That’s huge, Vincent. In life, you and I have lived enough years to know that we go through these ups and these downs that we can’t always see coming. To have those things in our world that we can control and to give us some of that relief and release is so important. Let me ask, because you mention your son.

As dads and as moms, it becomes challenging for us when our kid is going through something that we want to change and we can. Put yourself in one of the parents that you work with position. Where the kid is struggling in school and he’s just not motivated. He’s loving pot and not loving life. What’s a parent able to do in those situations?

Wherever there is something you can’t change, there’s a way to find something that you can, as you said. You can’t change your kids smoking pot if your kid wants to smoke pot. He’s going to smoke pot. Whether you’re around or not. You can’t change how your kid does in school because those are their grades and their classes. If they want to fail English 105, they’re going to fail it.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Vince Benevento | Mental Health

 

You can probably change your relationship with your kid. You can definitely change the way he receives you and whether or not he is drawn to you in situations of stress. You can change the way you speak to him, whether you build him up or tear them down. You can change the strength of your relationship. You can change these factors that change your influence in your relationship and the equity that you have with your kid. Which may eventually position you to be able to affect change in the domain that you want to affect.

You have to just be willing to be patient and willing to meet your kid wherever he is. If your kid is pissed off and angry, he’s going to be pissed off and angry. He could be pissed off and angry with a better relationship with his mom that he has now. Some point down the line, he might be less pissed off and angry.

The Power Of Genuineness & Sharing Your Story With Your Kids

Something you do well, Vince, very naturally is you’re very genuine. You’re able to talk about your background and your ups and more importantly, you’re down. We’ve all had them. For parents to be able to recognize and learn from that and say, “We don’t have to be perfect human beings.” If you think about it, anyone can have sex, but being a parent and having a kid is a whole different ballgame. There’s no manual. It is like on the job from moment one. It’s twists and turns and ups and downs.

I wouldn’t trade it for the world, but it’s challenging. Again, if there’s something parents can reap from you. I want them to know that your genuineness is your superpower. You connect with young adults in an amazing fashion. I don’t know people that have met you that don’t remember you, Vince. People come across you and they’re like, “I know Vince. He’s the guy that wears the hat backwards.” “That’s the guy.” It’s important you know that because to me that’s something that gives you the ability to connect with the kid in some ways that hasn’t been connected to. That’s also something that can transition and help a parent understand. It’s like, “All I got to do is let my guard down. That’s all I got to do.”

I appreciate what you said. This is unique to me. From my perspective, I never understood why people wouldn’t be willing to share the details of their own life or the details of their own story. It’s very easy for me to lead with my messiness and the parts of me that make me. I view them as one continuous through line, where I’m not here being me now if it’s not for the situations many years ago that influenced the changes in me to get me to the place I am. All of the good, the bad, the horrible, and the great.

There is incredible power in that, in the honesty and transparency associated with that narrative as a parent. One of the greatest gifts I’ve had as my kids have gotten older is the ability to talk to them about my own stuff. Those are the things that have allowed me to be professionally successful. To use those tools, those stories and those learnings with my own sons and with my daughter now, in whatever age-appropriate way I can share them. It has been impactful for them as they begin to understand social nuance, relationships and the challenges of being a person. All of these pieces.

Parents hide from that stuff a lot of times. They are afraid that they’re going to embarrass their kid or embarrass themselves or their skeletons are too shameful to share. I don’t see it that way. That stuff makes us, us. The learning lessons that we can share as a result of those experiences are what is important and what we can pass on to the people we care about.

The lessons we learn from our experiences are what matter most and what we can pass on to the people we care about. Share on X

No doubt, Vince. That’s something that aligns you and I. It’s a two-way street. I find myself learning from my kids every day. I’m hoping they learn from me every day. Part of that learning is us getting over ourselves and saying, “I can let my guard down. I can be open. I could figure it out.” Let’s face it, being a kid nowadays is different than when we were kids. I often find myself saying to the kids, “What’s it like being a high schooler nowadays? Tell me about your journey.”

There’s going to be things you’re going to hear that will surprise you and things you hear like, “I remember that.” I appreciate your genuineness, honesty and openness. I’m sure that comes through in your book. Everybody, get out there by Vince’s book. Let’s make it a strong 2026. I work with a lot of programs. You guys have top-notch services. I love your staff members. You’ve passed your genuineness along in many ways to people that you’ve done a good job hiring. Many of my students that you’ve worked with have done a good job with you guys. I appreciate all the hard work you guys have done. Most importantly, Vince, enjoy tomorrow. Enjoy having your son come home. I’m so excited for you guys.

Thank you. I’m grateful. I couldn’t be more excited.

I will talk to you at some point soon, Vince. Thanks for spending time with us.

Thank you so much.

 

Important Links

 

About Vince Benevento

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Vince Benevento | Mental HealthVince Benevento, LPC, is a licensed counselor in both NY and CT, a husband, father, speaker, and entrepreneur. He holds a BA from Wesleyan University and a Masters’s in School Counseling from Fairfield University. Vince possesses nearly 20 years of experience working specifically with men and young men as a coach, mentor, and therapist.

The organization Vince founded and has directed for the last 15 years, Causeway Collaborative, has supported over 2000 men and young men from 14-30, effectively changing the way that therapy has been done for guys who have been resistant to help over that time. Now, Vince hopes to share key lessons with men who seek to become better versions of themselves and those who love them.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Elizabeth Haney | Here For You Clothing

 

Welcome to a powerful conversation on mental health and wellness with Elizabeth “Ellie” Haney, the visionary founder of Here For You. Born from her own journey through emotional struggles and a feeling of profound isolation, Here For You is more than just a clothing brand—it’s a mission to normalize candid conversations about mental health through fashion, community, and support.

In this deeply honest interview, Ellie shares the excruciating reality of her college years, battling crippling anxiety and depression in silence, and the ultimate turning point—the three simple, yet life-changing words she finally spoke. Whether you’re a student feeling overwhelmed, a parent seeking connection, or simply someone who believes in the power of vulnerability, Ellie’s story is a testament to the fact that hope and change are real, and that the only way out of the darkness is through it. Get ready to be inspired and reminded: you are not alone, and help is waiting for you.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

—

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Here For You Clothing: Turning Struggle Into Support With Elizabeth Haney

Welcome, everybody, to the show. We are here to talk about mental health and wellness. I am super excited to have on an awesome guest, Elizabeth Haney. Elizabeth just told me offline that she goes by Ellie, so we will be referring to her as Ellie going forward. Let me read a little bit about Ellie. She is the founder of Here For You, which is such a cool organization.

I cannot wait to hear more about it. A support-based company she created out of her own lived experience navigating emotional struggles without a clear roadmap. Drawing from the gaps she saw and felt in the mental health and support systems around her, Ellie built Here For You to provide the understanding, guidance, and steady presence she once needed herself.

Her work is driven by a deep belief that no young adult or parent should have to face overwhelming moments alone. With a warm, grounded, and relatable approach, Ellie has become a trusted resource for families seeking clarity, connection, and compassionate support. Ellie, welcome to the show. How are you this evening?

Thank you so much for having me. What a wonderful intro. Thank you for that, Mark. I am doing really well. How about yourself? How are you doing?

I am great. It is so funny. Every time I put an intro together and read it, everybody has the same reaction, like, “Wow.” I am like, “That is you,” based on stuff you have done.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Elizabeth Haney | Here For You Clothing

 

It is actually funny when, sometimes, we are so immersed in what we are doing every day that I almost forget. That is why I am just so grateful for moments like this, that you can read back an intro of me, and I am like, “Wow.”

Good stuff. Maybe that is where we should start. Tell us about Here For You. It is a big question, but give us a synopsis. Give us a sense of what it is.

Founding Of Here For You & Its Mission

I would love to. Here For You is a clothing brand that I started over four years ago. I will tell you all my backstory and whatnot, but just as to what Here For You is. It is a clothing brand with a mission to normalize conversations about mental health struggles through fashion, physical pieces, and community events. We are based out of Fairfield, Connecticut. IMark, you said you are in Avon?

We are in Avon, Northern Connecticut.

We do not just do work in Connecticut. I love Connecticut and will always be tied to it, but we are actually working at a national level now, which is really exciting. I will explain what that means in a second. It has been my dream for the past couple of years to just raise awareness about mental health and to allow others to feel supported and less alone, ultimately. That did not just randomly come to me one day. I have personally struggled with mental health since I was really young.

Personal Struggle With Mental Health & Isolation

My first memories of being alive are sad ones. Sad, dark, isolated thoughts. I just remember growing up, elementary school, middle school, high school, constantly surrounded by the best people. Always had a supportive friend group, family, was involved in activities, always had friends, and grew up in a very privileged area. I was always going on vacations with my family and had all these wonderful things, but mostly felt alone and sad and worried despite all of these fascinating things that I had, these marvelous things that I had.

I definitely felt really weird and guilty for feeling this way because I thought to myself, “What is wrong with me? I have everything that anybody would ever want. Why do I not feel it? Why do I not feel happy?” Those thoughts just intensified as I got older. When I got to the University of Delaware for college in the fall of 2016, I had no real desire to be there. I did not really have any dreams, passions, or motivation. I felt like I was just trying to survive through the day.

Some days, the weight of just existing seemed unbearable. A couple of months into freshman year, I felt invincible when I got to college. I was almost infatuated by the idea that you could go out whenever you want, and there are no rules. There are drugs, alcohol, so many new people, and anything that I could ever want was right in front of me. I went to a bigger school, so there was no real attendance for class. It was very easy to slip through the cracks.

In that aspect, I was drinking every night. I was staying out until 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning. I was not going to class, and I was not taking care of myself because, honestly, Mark, I did not really care about my health. My mental health, my physical health. I just did not care. There is a lot more to that, but for the sake of time, please ask me any questions because I really want my story to be one of inspiration and hopefully to help as many people as possible on this platform.

The Crisis: Drug-Induced Psychosis & Subsequent Fear

Anyways, a couple of months into freshman year, I ultimately stopped taking care of myself and had a really bad reaction to drugs and alcohol one night, which ultimately, as a therapist. I am sure you know what this is. I did not know what it was, and a lot of people do not, but it led me to a drug-induced psychosis.

I had a psychotic episode that was brought to the surface by drugs and alcohol. To this day, thinking of that night when the psychosis happened to me, I get weird, I get shaky talking about it. I am not embarrassed about it or scared of it anymore, but it is almost just a reaction that I cannot even control because that night was so terrifying.

Ultimately, what happened to me after that night is that all of these underlying mental health issues that I had, that I did not even really know what was going on with me, they ultimately came to the surface. I started experiencing just crippling amounts of anxiety. Anxiety that I could not hide anymore. Depression that I could not hide anymore, dark thoughts, just terrifying. I was living in fear all of a sudden. I was just living in fear, and I thought I would never get better.

All those underlying mental health struggles I didn’t even understand eventually surfaced. I was overwhelmed by crippling anxiety and depression I could no longer hide—consumed by dark, terrifying thoughts and a sudden, constant fear. Share on X

I thought that this was the end of my life. I thought that I was crazy. I had no idea that I was even experiencing mental health issues. I thought that, truly, I was crazy. Something was wrong with me. Feeling that way, I could not handle it. I did not even know how to handle it, how to put words to it, so I just numbed myself with alcohol, toxic relationships, and I kept it all to myself and suffered in silence.

Ellie, let me jump in for one second. What you have said so far, first of all, sounds excruciating. Sounds really, really challenging. Much of what I have heard you say so far, I bet a lot of my college kids have experienced. Probably one of the biggest takeaways from what I heard is that as a freshman, you did not realize that you have a certain amount of bandwidth and you rode yourself way past that, and your body started to shoot off symptoms as a result of, “This is not cool. Better pull it back.” A lot of freshmen, in particular, will continue until they hit a wall. This went on for you all year?

This went on for me for my whole college career. That is just me being completely transparent and honest. That is one of the reasons why I share this, because if I knew somebody else was feeling this way or even was like, I was not the only one, I would have opened up and told people about it and suffered way less. I felt this, and now I know, being in the work that I do, and you see as well, so many people experience this, but nobody talks about it really. It is so isolating. Anyways, I went through college feeling like this.

Turning Point: Asking For Help

I felt this way for a year after graduation, and one day, I just hit rock bottom where I said to my parents, I broke down on my kitchen floor literally, and was like, “I cannot live like this anymore. I need help.” Those three words ultimately changed and saved my life. When I asked for help for the first time, suffering in silence for six-plus years. I felt free for a moment when I said that. Ever since that day, I have slowly started healing. Sobriety, medication, quitting the corporate job that I was in, creating my business now, and talking about how I feel.

I have often wondered throughout my whole career, why are those three words so hard? “I need help.” Why are they so hard?

It is so interesting that you ask because for so long, they seemed almost like it just was not even a possibility in my mind. I could not even get myself to consider saying those words. Now it is almost laughable because I ask for help every week. Every week, I do not feel good right now, whether it is mentally, physically, or whatever. I am so comfortable with asking for help now. That is an act of bravery. It is an act of bravery. It is the opposite of what you should feel ashamed of. It is such a weird thing. I do not know, what do you think? Why do you think it is so hard?

I can honestly say, having been through it myself, I was in a cycling accident years ago, and as a result, I ended up seeing a couple of different therapists until I found one that I liked or connected with. I am in the field, and it was hard to find one. I just remember thinking, those people who are not in the field, who are a little hesitant, they knock on the front door, the person answers, they do not really like the connection, so they are like, “Screw this, I am not doing this.”

I think that there is an assumption, especially by young people, that we should know how to do this ourselves. It is such a false assumption. I sort of feel like it is a strange analogy, but I sometimes say to families, it is kind of like getting a billion-piece Lego set without the directions. Who is skillful in putting that together? Most people need directions. Most people need some help. I just think that what young kids experience nowadays, I could talk to you about for hours, but what they experience nowadays, to me, I think everybody should get help.

You could say that again.

I am a little puzzled by why it is so hard, but I certainly see it all the time. The typical student that I might see is not unlike yourself. They have been suffering for years, and they come in and explain that to me. My first thought is, “I wish you had called me two years ago.”

That is something that really struck me about what you just said, Mark, is that I think about this often. What if I had asked for help right when this had happened to me? It would, and I do not regret it for a moment because it is part of your journey. Part of my journey, and my journey, I believe, was put on this earth to share my story so others do not have to feel that way and do not have to go through that struggle as I did alone. I think about it all the time. Imagine if I had said, “I need help,” right when this had happened to me, and really leaned into like, “I am not okay right now. I am not okay, and I need help.”

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Elizabeth Haney | Here For You Clothing

 

That is something that is so brave, like I said before. It is brave, it is vulnerable, it is real to say. That is when I think the healing can begin, when you surrender, and you say, “I am scared. I am scared, I am afraid,” and being honest with yourself. I also believe in creating a really safe environment wherever you go. It is so important too because if you reach out to help, if you reach out for help and somebody comes back at you, whether it is a professional, a peer, and they say, “That is crazy. I do not know what you are talking about,” you feel like, “I should not have said that. I want to go back in my hole.”

My turtle shell, right?

Exactly. That is why I love what you do, normalizing it forward, normalizing conversation around mental health so more people can become safe spaces for people, even if it is a freaking stranger at a gas station, and you see them looking really sad or looking crying, and you say, “Is everything all right?” It is okay to say, “No, I am not okay. I just need, can I have two minutes of your time just to talk about something?” That is what life is about. At least I personally think so.

I am with you, Ellie. It is funny. I did not tell you this before you got on, but most of my audiences are either parents of college kids or college kids themselves. Thankful to everybody who listens, the audience has grown nicely in the last couple of years since I have been on. Part of it is I will get emails from families, and they will talk about, “I have trouble talking about this with my kid,” or “I have trouble talking about this with my husband or my wife,” and they play a show, and they just listen to it together.

What it does is not only normalize, but it gets people to recognize, “This is not just Ellie and Mark’s opinion.” I tell people all the time, go on and Google it. By the time you look at statistics, the number of kids in college who have excessive anxiety, depression, eating disorders, substance abuse, and those are just diagnosed issues. Forget about the undiagnosed issues. You are basically talking about everybody. You are no longer in the minority if you have issues. Most kids have things they are struggling with.

The question really becomes, are you that kid who struggles sometimes mightily and cannot get over themselves and cannot ask for help? Are you that kid who is wise enough to realize, “Here are two adults telling you if they had to do it all over again, they might have asked for help a little earlier.” It is definitely not easy. I am very thankful that there are people like you in this world, Ellie, that you could turn to and say, “I am not sure if you are the right person, but I have been going through it.” There are plenty of people out there who will listen.

There sure are, and that is what I think that I just love what you shared about when it is hard, because sometimes I think it can be really hard as a parent. I am not a parent, so I cannot even imagine, but when I was going through a really hard time, when my parents would try to talk to me, I would not even know where to begin. I would not even know where to begin. I felt embarrassed, I felt crazy, I felt like they would never understand. A platform like yours was so needed at that time.

If my parents knew about it, about your platform, just putting on a show and saying, “We do not have to talk, that is one of my biggest things too, we do not have to talk, just listen to this. Just let us sit down and listen to a couple of minutes of Normalize It Forward because I promise you will feel a little bit less alone.” Everybody has a story, everybody has struggles. It is so strange to me now, looking at it from the other side, why do people keep this in? There is literally I am so proud of my story now, and it is something.

You should be.

Thank you. So should you. It is something that I have made a career out of. I am not afraid of mental illness anymore. Sure, some parts of it can be scary, but I do not carry around fear like I used to. The feeling of truly believing that you are utterly alone and that it will never get better is something that I would never wish on anybody, even a horrible person. It is so awful.

You’re Not Alone—Normalize Struggles & Reach Out Early

I always tell like if somebody is tuning in, and you feel like you have nobody to go to, you feel like nobody will ever understand, I need you to know that I do. I understand. I could have sworn on everything that I had visited the darkest part of the brain that was humanly possible. I get it, and it will get better, and the only way out is through all of this.

If you feel like you have no one to turn to—that no one could possibly understand—I need you to know that I do. I’ve been to that dark place, and I get it. It will get better. The only way out is through. Share on X

I would say to you, Ellie, along those lines, if there are people out there who are feeling that way, reach out. Reach out to Ellie, reach out to me, reach out to a friend on your dorm floor or an RA, reach out to a parent, reach out to a coach. It is amazing when I have students who miss an exam because they had a panic attack, and I encourage them to send their teacher an email. Here is what I hear back often.

The teacher will say, “Are you okay? Do not worry about it. My daughter suffers from excessive anxiety,” or “I suffer from excessive anxiety,” or “I have been there.” It is just this sense that you are truly not alone. Physically, you might feel like you are alone, but there are people out there who are really dealing with it.

Trust me, if you have the capacity to just say, “Can I have a couple of minutes?” You are going to find out that your neighbor, you are going to find out that your boyfriend, you are going to find out that your parent, your aunt, your uncle, people are dealing with stuff. It is okay to be dealing with stuff. That is actually to me one of the things I do not even love the word normal, but I put it in my show.

To me, one of the most normal things in life is to realize “We all have our struggles. We are human beings, we are flawed, we are not perfect.” To me, the thing you have done and the thing I have done in our adult worlds is that we have figured out that if we can, you said it earlier, if we can accept that we have got some things we are dealing with, then we can actually work on them, and life starts to change.

Also, I want to hear your opinion on this, but I think it is safe to say your audience or your clients are mostly college-age students.

I see that probably three-quarters of my day is spent seeing students, mostly older high school and college students. I am a family therapist as well, and I do a lot of family work. I have been treating that population for most of my career. I would say, just in a very nutshell version, things have changed a lot in the last five or ten years. As a parent, I am the parent of two graduates.

I can say that when parents say to me, “I am approaching it this way because that is what I did,” well, I went to school 30-something years ago, and life has changed in college for students in the last five years. Everything is almost outdated, and you really have to approach things in a way that anxiety is way up, depression is way up, and suicide is way up. It is unfortunate, but kids are around all the time. That is just the reality of what we have. The best thing we can do is to talk about it.

Period. I was going to ask you two quick questions, actually. This is like a comment, but it is I just think back to when I was at school, and even though I graduated from Delaware in 2020. I even think back to just when I was at school, all I wanted to do was to be normal and for people to like me and to be accepted into a sorority and to be as skinny as everyone, be as tan, as pretty as everyone. Again, this is me talking as a woman.

I cannot really speak to it. I am sure I know men do feel that way, but speaking as my experience as a woman, it is really so much pressure at college, whether or not it is you are putting that pressure on yourself or society, a mix of both. What do you say to college students when they are putting so much pressure on themselves and comparing themselves to others?

I would say two things. Number one, we are living through an era with GLPs and other things that people are taking where all of this, all of the body image, all of the competitive and comparison stuff has multiplied by ten. I would say that to those who are feeling bad about themselves, I would consider how much social media you are looking at, and I am using that word on purpose, but the training that happens when you are looking at 75 to 100 pictures of beautiful people is terrible. I see kids doing it all the time. I see kids posting all the time.

Social media is really dreadful for that type of stuff. I think the other piece, and it is just really simple, and I think most adults when they get to a particular place in life realize this, that is, you have got to accept what you have got. I am 5’7″, and I am never going to be 6’10”. That is not going to happen. I am done growing. Pretty sure. You have got to accept what you get. To me, your height, your body shape, your skin tone, your color, your this, your that, whatever it is that makes you who you are, makes you uniquely awesome. The sooner people realize it, the better.

The Importance Of Authenticity & Self-Acceptance

I love that, and something I always say to people, too, and I say to myself as well when I am feeling down about myself or my weight or my acne or literally anything, I say it is like, “You cannot replace authenticity. Nobody can ever be who you are. Your authentic self is irreplaceable. It is irreplaceable.”

Whether you believe in God, a higher power, energy, or anything, you were put on this earth to be exactly who you are. Literally, the quote on my laptop I am looking at right now that I have every day is, “The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are.” You cannot fake that. It is special, and whatever you look like, or whatever you look like, you do, whatever is unique, and nothing can ever replace that.

Totally agree. Ellie, let me ask, Here For You, how can people buy clothing?

I am on a lot of social media platforms, which social media is such a I believe it can be such a positive and such a negative.

Beautiful things emerge from dark places. Share on X

I am with you on that.

I try to spread positivity on TikTok, Instagram, and all those platforms that are out there. You can find me at HereForYouClothing.com. I can send you all this, Mark, too. Here For You Clothing on Instagram and Here For You Clothing on TikTok. Also, if anybody wants to get in touch with me, my email is literally just Ellie@HereForYouclothing.com. All of that contact info is on my website as well, but if anybody wants to contact me, please reach out. I am truly so grateful to be here. Also, I am going to give you guys a special discount. I am going to do, can I do YOUAREHEARD?

That would be great. We would love it. What I will do, too, Ellie, is I will have my production staff print what you just said on screen, so it is not just you saying it, but they will be able to see it. People will have an easier way of getting in touch. If there is a discounted rate, let me know, and I will have them print that as well up there.

Those of you who want to go on and buy some clothing or check out what Ellie is doing, please jump on. It is an amazing brand. I am really impressed with what you guys are doing. Your story is awesome too. I do not want to jump past that because it is to me when I have students in my office that we will call them our success stories.

Whether they have big successes or small successes, I have seen a lot of them over the years. Students who graduate from college are a great example. When I look at them, and I tell them, “I am really proud of what you have done,” and they kind of look at me like, “I am too, but no one said that to me.”

I want to say it to you, I am proud of the work that you have done because to me, you are a living success story, Ellie. I do not know where things would have gone when you were at college if things had gone in a negative direction. Certainly not to this show. I am pleased that you have done what you have done and that you can live life, smile, enjoy things, and create such an awesome brand for us to be a part of. Thank you.

Thank you. That means more than you know. Beautiful things emerge from dark places, and I definitely am a success story, which is something I truly never thought would ever be true. I never thought I would do anything great. I never thought I would make it through. I did. Hope and change are real, and now I dedicate my life to spreading this message because it is real. It is very real. I am proud of you, too, and your work, as I said, means a lot to a lot of people.

I appreciate it. Thank you so much, and I just want to reiterate to everyone because it was such an important point. Those three words, “I need help.” So simple. You touched on it earlier. You did it yourself. I have done it at times. I think that to just push young adults to say, “Look, if you cannot say it, write it down. If you cannot write it down, text it.” Find a way to communicate that because help is out there and help is waiting for you.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Elizabeth Haney | Here For You Clothing

 

Ellie, you are just such a great example of that. I want to thank you for your time and your energy today. I just want to put you on the spot one time and just ask, because normalize it does it forward does this. Typically, I have my guests nominate a friend, a coworker, or a relative to keep that conversation just moving forward and continuing to normalize mental health and wellness. Any thoughts as to who would be helpful for me to interview next?

The first person who comes to mind is my boyfriend, Sean Grenier. I don’t want to tell his story fully, but he is a mental health advocate. As a man, I really believe that’s so important. One of the reasons why I love Sean so deeply is that he’s very emotionally intelligent and is not afraid to say how he is feeling. That is truly, I believe, a gift, and he’s an electrician. He’s a rugby player. He’s very “manly.” Looks very manly. He’s beautiful. He talks so deeply about his feelings and what he’s been through. I nominate him.

That’s great. I can’t wait to get him on the show. I have to say, I mean, as a guy, when I’ve talked to guys before this comes up, I don’t know if it’s easier or harder for guys, but certainly, there are some statistics out there that so many men, especially in college, don’t get the help that they need. One of the reasons why I’m excited to talk to Sean is that I feel like that can’t be normalized enough. It’s like, I don’t know when someone voted against guys talking about their feelings, but like, “I wasn’t in the room. I’d like a vote because that’s just terrible.”

The more we talk about things, the better we feel. You touched on it just a minute ago. Quite frankly, the more people are attracted to that, the more people like that. I can’t wait to get him on. Love to hear about where he’s been and what he’s doing. You’ll have to let him know later that you nominated him. I’ll get his contact stuff from you off the air. How about that?

I cannot wait to pass this. He will be honored to be on.

Ellie, thank you so much for your time, your energy, and everything that you do. Most importantly, your honesty, and you are just a really grounded individual. There is a ripple effect that comes from that. I know people are tuning in who will benefit from your words. I really thank you.

It is my privilege. It is truly what I believe is one of my favorite things to talk about. Mental health and normalizing the conversation. Actually, it is my favorite thing to talk about. Let us be real. Thank you for the opportunity, Mark. I look forward to staying in contact with you and look forward to seeing what you do in the next couple of years as well, and hopefully, we can continue to work together.

I promise you that. We will, definitely. You have yourself a wonderful evening. We will talk soon.

Likewise. Take care. Happy Holidays.

Take care. Bye-bye.

 

Important Links

 

About Elizabeth Haney

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Elizabeth Haney | Here For You ClothingElizabeth Haney is the founder of Here For You, a support-based company she created out of her own lived experience navigating emotional struggles without a clear roadmap. Drawing from the gaps she saw — and felt — in the mental health and support systems around her, Elizabeth built Here For You to provide the kind of understanding, guidance, and steady presence she once needed herself.

Her work is driven by a deep belief that no young adult or parent should have to face overwhelming moments alone. With a warm, grounded, and relatable approach, Elizabeth has become a trusted resource for families seeking clarity, connection, and compassionate support.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Bob Delaney | Post-Traumatic Stress

 

The path to healing from post-traumatic stress requires bravery, honesty, and a willingness to share your story. Bob Delaney‘s life truly reads like a movie script: he’s a former New Jersey State Trooper who spent three years undercover infiltrating the mob, and later became one of the NBA’s most respected referees, officiating over 1,500 games. His extraordinary journey has made him a leading voice on resilience and leadership, using his experience to help first responders, veterans, and athletes understand the human side of high-pressure lives. Bob discusses how the game of basketball became his therapy and how a common-sense approach is better than over-medicalizing the conversation. He reminds us that trauma is inescapable, and through his powerful Kintsugi analogy for healing, he proves that what is personal is universal.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Trauma Is Inescapable: A Common-Sense Approach To Post-Traumatic Stress With Bob Delaney

Undercover Cop To NBA Ref: The Human Side Of High-Pressure Lives

We are here to talk openly about mental health and wellness. I have a fantastic guest. I’m super excited that everybody gets a chance to meet Bob Delaney. Bob, how are you, sir?

Good, Marc. Pleasure to be with you.

Thanks so much for being here, Bob. Bob is a fascinating individual and has done, honestly, the more I read about you, Bob, the more I think you’ve done you’ve lived a few lifetimes here. Bob’s life really reads like a movie script in some ways, but it’s all real. He’s a former New Jersey State Trooper who went undercover for three years, infiltrating the mob. Bob later became one of the NBA’s most respected referees, officiating over 1,500 games, that’s a crazy number, including multiple NBA Finals.

It’s what came after this that truly defines him. Bob has become a leading voice on post-traumatic stress, resilience, and leadership, using his extraordinary journey to help others understand the human side of high-pressure lives. Now he speaks to first responders, veterans, athletes, and everyday people about the power of acknowledging our story and healing through connection. In this episode, Bob reminds us that even those who appear calm under pressure have a story beneath the surface, and that sharing it can change their lives. Bob, welcome. How are things?

Thank you. Good to be with you.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Bob Delaney | Post-Traumatic Stress

 

Absolutely. Good to have you here, Bob. I have to say, reading through your bio and reading through all the different things that you’ve done, I guess I’m wondering, where would you like to start to tell us a little bit about who you are?

I think that you start from the beginning. I was very fortunate to have the first leaders in my life sit across the dining room table, Mary and Bob Delaney. I grew up an Irish Catholic kid in an Italian neighborhood in Paterson, New Jersey. The school, the church, that was the center of our lives, playing on the Little League teams and being involved there.

One of the things that happened to me early on, I was a pretty good athlete playing Little League baseball, and then the basketball team had tryouts and I didn’t make it. I got cut. Disappointment turns into motivation, and I became obsessed with getting better at basketball. I was probably a better baseball player than I was basketball, but I kept at it because I didn’t make the team I was with my friends. That was in seventh grade.

In eighth grade, I played, played in high school, was an all-state basketball player and baseball player in New Jersey. Played in college, and basketball was a big part of my life. The reason I keep saying this is that I found it to be therapy later in life. I joined the New Jersey State Police, as you said, in 1973. I followed in my father’s footsteps. He was a lieutenant in the State Police at the time. All my life, I never thought of being a trooper. It wasn’t until I was a sophomore in college that I saw it as a way to serve.

I looked at my father and his friends as hero types and didn’t think I had what they had in them to become a trooper. I was on the job about a year, and they try to make you feel good about yourself. You have this squad room with a little cubbyhole, like you’re back in kindergarten, with your name on it, as if you’re important. I walked in after two days off and it was a note to call Lieutenant Jack Liddy, Division Headquarters Criminal Investigation Section, Organized Crime Bureau.

Disappointment can turn into motivation. Share on X

This guy had more titles next to his name than I ever saw, Marc. I grew up Irish Catholic, which means I wake up guilty in the morning. I thought I had a problem on my hands, I thought I was in trouble. I had a conversation with the lieutenant, and after the conversation with him, he asked if I was interested in doing undercover work. I said, “Yes, sir.” Over a period of time, I learned that it was the first time that the FBI and New Jersey State Police and the President’s Organized Crime Task Force out of Washington, D.C., were going to join forces. I became one of those undercover guys.

I thought it was going to be a fun gig. They told me it was going to be six months. Every federal grant is written for six months, like we’re going to end organized crime in the State of New Jersey in six months. That didn’t happen. The six months became a year, a year became two, and it started going into the third year, and I just wanted out. We infiltrated the Genovese and Bruno crime families. I was living a lifestyle that was not my own. I’m living a dual life. I was made to look as if I was thrown out of the State Police. It was a very Sopranos-esque type life. While we’re not here to talk about undercover work, I have to share my story as to what took place.

While it was very good at putting away bad guys and we did, we put away a lot of bad guys but what happened to me was post-traumatic stress disorder. I didn’t know what was going on inside of me. I used to refer to it as an emotional rollercoaster, which is a common term. I actually would term it emotional violence inside of me. I was angry. I didn’t know what I was angry about. I was like a frustrated child that I would punch a wall and put a hole in a wall.

I’m not the guy that can spackle. If the car breaks down, I get out, I open the hood because I think that’s what you’re supposed to do. I have no idea what I’m looking at. I couldn’t fix it, so I’d just go down to Walmart or Kmart and buy a cheap painting and put it over that hole in the wall. How prophetic that was of what I was hiding and what was truly going inside the four walls of my house.

To the outside, I was being told I was this heroic type figure. I did heroic work. I was a brave guy. I felt none of that. I felt like the biggest hypocrite in the world. I’m getting all kinds of awards and recognition, and yet that’s not who I was. I was scared to death the whole time I was doing the undercover work. I had this emotional upheaval inside of me that I didn’t know how to handle. I became a student of post-traumatic stress, but I got lucky.

When I say I got lucky, one of the troopers that was assigned to my security detail after I surfaced from the undercover work had a background of psychology from Rutgers University. He could see some things going on inside of me. For something I wanted to get away from so badly, I kept going back into it. My undercover name was Robert Allen Covert, Bobby Covert. Catchy name for an undercover guy, but we weren’t trying to be cute or funny.

The birth records and death records are not cross-indexed in our country. If you go to the death record side, find a child that died at birth, same first name, same ethnic-sounding last name, same age grouping, that’s how we developed our persona. When I got this other trooper, his name is John Schroth, a detective in the State Police who had the background in psychology from Rutgers University started to see I wanted to get away from this so bad, but yet a couple of weeks later, I got the leather coat on. I got the chains around my neck. I got the pinky ring going.

If we can keep post-traumatic stress at post-traumatic stress, and not allow it to grow to the disorder, we'll have a better handle on finding ways to navigate the emotional upheaval we may be feeling as a result of things we experience in life. Share on X

I’m kissing people on the cheek like I’m back with the wise guys, with the mob. He was the one who started to see something. We would be on a late-night surveillance. I had to testify in grand juries, I had to go on late-night surveillance and I had a security team with me. We stopped over for a drink. When I got on that environment, I started buying everybody drinks because that’s what Bobby Covert did.

Detective John Schroth said to me, “Hey pal, what are you doing? That’s not fed money anymore. That’s mortgage money. You’re hurting yourself.” As soon as he pointed the finger at me, I did the moonwalk. I got away from him. He doesn’t know what I’m going through. I don’t want to hear that. I was being paraded around. I testified before the United States Senate, I gave a briefing to Congress, and everyone wanted to hear about this undercover job.

I was speaking at the Jersey City Police Academy in New Jersey, and in the audience was Dr. Henry Campbell. Hank was my college psychology professor at New Jersey City University. He and I started doing some informal therapy sessions together. He was the first one to say to me, “Bobby, what you’re going through is post-traumatic stress disorder.” I pushed him away, said, “Hank, get out of here. I’m a trooper. I’m reading about this thing. It’s a military thing. It’s not me.”

Marc, this has been around forever. Sophocles wrote two plays about the warrior not knowing how to act after coming home from battle. After the Civil War, we called it soldier’s heart. World War I, it was shell shock. World War II, it was combat fatigue or battle fatigue. In the Korean and Vietnam wars, we referred to it as flashbacks. In 1980, it became post-traumatic stress disorder. From my view, we have over-medicalized it ever since because we scare people away from having the conversation.

Please don’t interpret that I’m saying we don’t need the medical side of the house, we do. We have tremendous resources. We just have to continue to build stronger bridges between those who are the resource and those who need the resource, and to have a more common-sense approach to it versus a diagnostic approach to it.

At times, like everything in our country, we swing things one way or the other. We have difficulty finding the middle in our country for some reason. It’s along the same line with this. PTSD to me is one of the most loosely used terms in our society, and it’s not fair to those that are dealing with it. I tell folks, “You don’t get PTSD if Starbucks gets your order wrong, yet we use that term so loosely.” Post-traumatic stress disorder is a diagnosis, and it is a medical diagnosis.

I work in the area of post-traumatic stress. My belief is if we can keep post-traumatic stress at post-traumatic stress, not allow it to grow to the disorder, that we’re going to have a better handle on finding ways to navigate ourselves through the emotional upheaval that we may be feeling as a result of some of the things that we experience in life.

From Undercover Trauma To NBA Therapy: Basketball As Inner Peace

I’m curious. I’m listening to just a snapshot of what you went through as a state trooper that created a lot of this. You entered into becoming a referee, and I thought, psychologically, what was that like? How did that happen?

The reason I told the story about the basketball in the front end, basketball was a big part of my life. When I surfaced from doing the undercover work, I couldn’t play anymore. In my junior going into my senior year, I got Budweiser-itis. I couldn’t jump anymore. That summer was a heck of a summer down the Jersey Shore, but all of a sudden, my abilities changed. When I came out from surfacing, I don’t know what it was, but the game was calling me back. I say that I was on a street that had no rules and boundaries, and then I had wanted to be around a game that had boundaries and rules.

I didn’t know what it was doing for me as I do now, releasing endorphins, attending to my hypervigilance because I had to look all over, all over those things. The game became therapy, and basketball was my therapy. I say to folks, when you’re going through tough times, find your inner peace. Your inner peace may be bicycling, or running, or quilting, or photography, whatever it is. For me, it was basketball. That to me is important is it’s an example of what inner peace can bring.

Managing The Game: 30 Years As The NBA’s Most Respected Referee

I don’t know if it’s possible to capture a 30-year career but talk to me about that, because I think about all of the greats that you were around, all of the personalities ranging from kind to, we’ll say, unkind, and everything in between. Is there a way to capture that, Bob?

Not being able to play any longer, I started to figure out I can get on a basketball court as a referee. There are only three groups of people that get to put their feet on a basketball floor, and it’s the players, coaches, and referees. I started refereeing little kids’ games. This is quite a while after I had surfaced, because I had was testifying in grand juries, everything was slowing down and it was not as concerning to the State Police for where my activities were.

One thing led to another and I was refereeing high school ball, and then I started refereeing summer pro leagues down the Jersey Shore, over in New York City, in different parts of the state. Somebody from the stands came out and his name was Darrell Garretson. He happened to be the director of officials for the NBA. He asked if I was interested. I think it was my demeanor as a state trooper and understanding how to find problems before they start and quell them that was attractive. This was 1984.

When you’re going through tough times, find your inner peace. Share on X

By 1987, I was hired into the National Basketball Association. I spent 25 years as a referee, and then 5 years as management, and during that time I was the director of officials and the vice president of referee operations. To your point, the game has changed a great deal, but interacting, it’s one thing to be able to call a game, it’s another to be able to manage a game, and to understand the personalities that are involved here. The higher the level that you go, the higher the personality.

I’m sure. I’ve got to imagine of all of the longtime referees in the NBA, you have to be up there on the list.

I started in ’87, like I said. I came off the floor in 2011 and ’12 to ’17, I was in the position up in management, in the front office. I retired and then Commissioner Sankey created a position, so I’m with the Southeastern Conference now as a special advisor for officiating development performance. The game continues to be my outlet. Parallel to this time, for 40 years, i’ve been doing this work with post-traumatic stress. Law enforcement, firefighters, first responders, then the military heard about me, I was tapped to do work with the military, spent time in Iraq and Afghanistan. While I was doing that, I always had basketball as my therapy.

Resilience & Small Wins: Why Simone Biles & Kevin Love Are Mental Health Heroes

You’ve talked about the game as your therapy and so many athletes over the years have come out publicly talking about how they’re impacted by different mental health and wellness issues. I guess I’m curious, just in general, how do you see athletics and how do you see the sport itself impacting people that way?

Thanks for bringing that up, because I think that my earlier statement about swinging from one side to the other and not finding the middle, when we first started really becoming societally aware of post-traumatic stress to the level that it is, we saw it as a negative. We were speaking about it in negative terms of things that were taking place with troops coming home from Vietnam, that were coming home from a war-torn battle situations. That’s what we equated it to, and then it was the reactions they were having.

Nowadays, I think that we talk more about resiliency and about that going through this, you can become even stronger as a result of going through some difficult times. I think we have to celebrate the small wins, and I use Simone Biles as an example. If you recall when Simone Biles said that she could not participate in the Olympics because she had twisties, and we all became educated as to what twisties meant. We were all like, “She’s up like 12, 15 feet in the air and then she can’t get her feet on.” We became understanding to what she was saying.

It’s one thing to call a game; it's another to manage a game and understand the personalities involved. Share on X

The 40-year-old living in the mother’s basement was still tweeting out some negative comments, but the overall society was very supportive. Think about 2 to 5 Olympics ago, she would have been vilified as being unpatriotic. We were not as aware or willing to be aware of some of the things that are changing in our society. That’s when I talk about celebrate the small wins. We’re moving the bar. This is not about eliminating post-traumatic stress or trauma, it’s learning how to interact with it and how to navigate it, and that to me is important.

I use an analogy. I ask people to imagine i’ve got the biggest balloon being held over my head. How do I get the air out? They take a pin and pop it, I get the air out, but I don’t have a balloon anymore. I let it go, it flies all over the room, it goes out the door, we don’t know where the balloon was. If we’re patient and willing to listen to sounds we do not want to hear as we turn it upside down and we let a little air out at a time. That sound may hurt your ears maybe you don’t want to hear eventually we get all the air out and we have a new balloon we can use again one day.

That’s us with trauma. That’s with us with our experiences in traumatic situations. We need to talk about it. I tell folks, i’ve written three books, i’ve had numerous articles, i’ve been on a lot of podcasts, i’ve got films that have been made, all my stuff’s not on the street, yet there’s some stuff that’s still in there. I’ve probably got 90% out, and I feel lighter, and I learned that the more that I spoke about it and spoke to someone and was able to get help coming back to me, all of a sudden, things got a lot better in my life.

Trauma Is Inescapable: The Power Of Peer Support & Getting Help

It’s funny, Bob, I just did an interview, and those really important three words, “I need help,” came out. To my young audience, I think that’s a real obstacle that notion of, “I don’t need help, I’m fine. I’m totally fine,” suck it up all those phrases that we hear. It’s like I don’t know too many people that don’t have traumas. I don’t know too many people that haven’t experienced things that, quite frankly, could be talked through.

It does make me wonder sometimes, like you said, years ago, how would Simone have been illustrated to us versus now? I think the Kevin Loves of the world and some of the other athletes in the NBA and the stand they’ve taken around wellness and the concept of, “I am who I am, and this is what I’m dealing with,” to me has been just immense. It’s been really impactful for young people.

I know young people will talk to me about it. When those things come out publicly, they’ll hear about them. Quite frankly, i’ll hear about this interview. Kids will see it and they’ll email me or text me or comment about it. I think a lot of it is for us being older than them to be able to say, “Here’s the path.” The path is, let’s talk about it, let’s deal with it, as you said, let the air out of our balloon. Get to a lighter place so that we can enjoy our life.

I’ve had conversations with Kevin. Back in the day when we started having these conversations within the NBA, David Stern, Adam Silver were very supportive of the message that I was doing and they gave me a title of NBA Cares Ambassador, so that they were supportive in sending me over to Iraq and Afghanistan in concert with the military and a lot of different locations.

I got my Master’s at Saint Mary’s College of California in Leadership, and then I studied at the Harvard Global Mental Health Trauma Recovery Program. We started our studies in Orvieto. Dr. Mollica is the director, and his words rang played in my head as you said what you were saying because he has a very simple statement as he starts every program. “Trauma is inescapable in life.” Trauma is inescapable.

Trauma is inescapable in life. Share on X

You also triggered in my mind about how we become judgmental of trauma. I don’t mean judgmental of me to you, but judgmental within ourselves. Someone else is going through something worse. We minimize what we’re experiencing. Our stuff is our stuff, and it’s not to be compared to what someone else is going through, it’s what we’re going through. The more that I came to grips with that and understood it, I was able to have a better approach.

One of the soldiers that I worked with lost both his legs in Iraq. We were at a post-traumatic stress program that I was sharing some thoughts with. He said to me, “You know what? Post-traumatic stress is like dieting. Some of us need to lose 5 to 10 pounds, some 10 to 20, and some of us are obese, and it changes on an hourly or daily basis.”

I said, “What a great analogy. I’m going to use it,” because i’ve been 5 to 10 pounds since I came out of the womb. At times i’ve been overweight, and it didn’t mean I stopped living. At times, it just meant I bought bigger pants. It’s finding ways to navigate and how do we interact with it. Our demeanor and our approach about how we do that just what you were saying is how can we feel lighter, how can we feel engaged?

My first peer-to-peer conversation took place with me in a mirror. Not just thinking the words, I verbalized it to that person about what I was speaking. I got lucky again. A guy by the name of Louis Freeh, who became the director of the FBI, was a street agent back in the day during my case. He was working another case in New York. He introduced me to that other undercover agent. His name is Joe Pistone. The world knows him as Donnie Brasco, and Johnny Depp played him in a movie.

Joe and I are still friends to this day, and we can still talk about what our experiences went through, and that’s what peer-to-peer is. Peer-to-peer is being able to speak to someone who has gone through a similar experience. We’re two old dudes now. The only place I can go undercover now is the senior citizen home and figure out who stole the yogurt. Being able to have someone to speak to is so important.

Peer-to-peer is being able to speak to someone who has gone through a similar experience. Share on X

It really is. I think we live in a world I’m really thankful for this we live in a world where there’s good people out there and there’s people that want to speak to you. You just have to get to that point individually where you want it and you acknowledge it. I think that’s a hard part, acknowledging it.

That is a great statement, and that’s something we have to be reminded of. I really believe there’s a lot more good than bad, and we’re getting inundated with negativity. You watch TV, you get inundated with the news. All of this noise that’s going on outside starts to bring inside of our own personal lives. Knowing that, there’s a lot of good people that are willing to help and have tremendous hearts.

Beyond The Uniform: Why Athletes Need To Say “I Need Help”

No doubt about it. I’m curious, I work with so many athletes that if I didn’t ask this, they’d probably be upset with me, what’s it like to be on the hardwood with some of those legendary players?

I was fortunate. I got to referee Julius Erving. He was ending as I was starting and then the Magic and Larry years, and all through Michael Jordan, and into the Bad Boys of Detroit, and all the way up to Steph. I refereed Steph’s dad, Dell. Little difference. Dell had to come off a screen to get an open shot, Steph just has to get on the court somewhere and Steph’s throwing it up. I remember him as a little kid in Charlotte sitting along the bench when his dad was playing, and I got to referee him for two years before I went into the office.

The greatest athletes on the planet are in the NBA, and their abilities are phenomenal. It’s still a job, and so you have to compartmentalize. You’re a fan of the game because you love the game, but when you go to work, it’s about making sure that the rules are enforced and that they stay within those guidelines of the rules.

It’s funny you should say that. I’ve also had the thought, too, with athletes, it doesn’t matter what level you reach, you’re still a human being. You’re still susceptible to everything, Bob, that you and I are susceptible to. I think that’s something that many of them have reminded us about in the last many years. Things like depression and eating disorders and anxiety and post-traumatic issues, they’re all susceptible to them as well, just like we are. I think it’s important, as much as some of those guys can shoot a three from the parking lot or jump out of the gym, they have extraordinary abilities, certainly, but they are built the same way we are emotionally.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Bob Delaney | Post-Traumatic Stress

 

I’ve worked with college athletes, i’ve worked with college teams, where I met with the entire team because the team had such a long losing streak. They were embarrassed to go into the dining facility at the university because they were reading everything that was online about how bad the team was. These are areas that are important to have conversations about, because these are true feelings.

One of the things that you also triggered in my mind is that the work I do, I started to realize I do a lot of work with folks that wear uniforms. Law enforcement, firefighters, first responders, military, health care community, they put on scrubs or they put on a lab coat, and then athletes. When we put on that uniform, we think we can leap tall buildings in a single bound, we can handle anything. That we are a little bit superhuman, or we’re being held on a pedestal because of the uniform that we wear and the position that we hold in society.

Understanding what you just said is so important. When the bell rings, every one of those professions does what they’re trained to do and what they have trained themselves to do. Yet when it’s over, it’s a human being that’s coming out of that uniform that we need to have the abilities to tend to and say it’s okay for them to say, “I need help,” or, “It’s not okay, I’m struggling right now. I’m in the deep end of the water and I just need somebody to help pull me out.” That’s okay to talk about that. It took me a while to get to that point, but when I did, my life changed for a lot better.

I want the young readers to really understand that, Bob, because we hear these stories where athletes unfortunately, some of them take their lives and we’re stunned when that happens. To me, it’s like, there’s people out there that need help, there’s people out there that have help around them. All they have to do and I’m making it sound simple, it’s not is to ask for it and to get it. To me, it’s there’s a lot of young people out there that need it and aren’t getting it. As you said, your life changed.

For your people in your audience, I’d ask them to Google Kintsugi. Do you know Kintsugi?

No.

Kintsugi is a Japanese art form. What do we do in our society when something breaks? We throw it away. In the Japanese culture, say a pottery dish, they put it back together with gold and silver glues. What I would offer to you is that while it looks different, it’s still operational, it’s still functional. While it may not look the same, it’s still beautiful. I would even argue it’s stronger because it’s been reinforced.

There is no testimony without a test, and what is personal is universal. Share on X

I use Kintsugi and I put that photograph up when I present of that pottery dish with the gold and silver, that’s our humanity. That’s how we get broken, and I believe deep in our subconscious we feel that if we say we’re broken, we’re going to be discarded. When we come to understand that we can be put back together, we can be stronger. That’s the beauty of some of the challenges that come in life. There is no testimony without a test, and what is personal is universal. There are other people feeling what you’re feeling. That’s one of the things that I came to learn is that I’m not alone. There are other people feeling the same emotions I’m feeling.

No doubt about it. I think if you live life long enough, you start to realize life really is a rollercoaster. You’ve got your ups, you’ve got your downs, and as one of my mentors years ago used to say all the time, life is not a dress rehearsal. We got one chance here so you got to do what you got to do to live it and to enjoy and experience the happiness that you can have out of life.

I think one of the secrets to that, that I think a lot of adults have discovered, is getting the help when you need it. I don’t know where it came from, Bob but that concept of like, “I don’t need help, not me.” I’m thrilled to hear you talk about that. I think it’s I believe it’s our job as adults, older than young adults, to teach and to pass along those things that we’ve discovered in life and the little secrets and tips that took us a while but hopefully won’t take them as long.

I love hanging out with the young folks. You hang out with young folks, you stay young. We go to great lengths to understand cultures in our society. I really believe that each generation is a culture. We have to have a better understanding. You have to change with times. I used to get off a plane and look for a phone booth. Now I have a phone in my pocket. For all those who want to go look for the phone booth, be my guest. You got to stay current. Staying current means spending time with young folks.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Bob Delaney | Post-Traumatic Stress

 

Self-Care Is Not Selfish: Final Takeaways & Call To Normalize It Forward

 I’m laughing, Bob, because you referenced Superman earlier and I’m remembering watching that with my son, and he jumped into the phone booth and changed and my son asked me, “What’s that?” I said, “That’s another story for another day.” I so appreciate you making the time. Bob, honestly, when I read your bio and heard about your background, I thought, “This guy has lived multiple lives.”

Probably the best thing that I read is you continue to help. You’re a helper, you’re a person who wants to pass along your knowledge and your experiences and your joy, and also very human, very honest to recognize not every day, not every moment’s fantastic, and it’s not that way for anybody. To me, you’re a role model in so many different ways. I appreciate you spending time with us.

Can I put you on the hot seat for one second one more second? I set up this show a couple of years ago to really spread the conversation and to really help especially young people understand how important it is to normalize wellness and mental health. One of the things that I ask of my guests is to nominate a friend, a coworker, a relative to keep that conversation moving forward so it doesn’t stop. Any thoughts as to who maybe I could interview next that you’d like to nominate?

Steve Shambam is a friend of mine, and I will send you his information and connect you. I really appreciate the opportunity to be with you. I would offer to you and your audience my hope for all of you is to stay healthy, stay safe, take care of one another, and take care of you, too. Self-care does not mean selfish. Self-care is about being the best you can be to make the world a better place. Truly an honor being with you, Marc.

Bob, I can’t improve on that. We’re going to finish on that note. I thank you so much. I look forward to getting in touch with Steve. I thank you for your time, your energy, and your positivity.

God bless you as well.

Thank you.

 

Important Links

 

About Bob Delaney

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Bob Delaney | Post-Traumatic StressBob Delaney’s life reads like a movie script — but it’s all real.

A former New Jersey State Trooper who went undercover for three years infiltrating the mob, Bob later became one of the NBA’s most respected referees, officiating over 1,500 games, including multiple Finals.

But it’s what came after that truly defines him. Bob has become a leading voice on post-traumatic stress, resilience, and leadership — using his extraordinary journey to help others understand the human side of high-pressure lives.

Today, he speaks to first responders, veterans, athletes, and everyday people about the power of acknowledging our stories and healing through connection.

On Normalize It Forward, Bob reminds us that even those who appear calm under pressure have a story beneath the surface — and that sharing it can change lives.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jake and Joe Sharp | Men's Mental Health

 

Men’s mental health takes center stage as we hear a story of turning pain into purpose. Marc Lehman welcomes identical twins, fitness coaches, and mental health advocates Jake and Joe Sharp, who turned the tragedy of losing their younger brother Sam to suicide into a powerful mission to help others heal. They speak with incredible honesty about the impact of grief, the darkness of depression, and overcoming the isolating grip of shame and perfectionism. Their raw, real, and deeply human conversation explores the life-changing role that community, physical wellness, and finding hope played in their journey, showing listeners that true healing means connecting and growing strong together.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Healing Doesn’t Mean Hiding: Fitness, Shame, And Men’s Mental Health With Jake And Joe Sharp

We are here to talk openly about mental health and wellness. I have two awesome guests, Jake and Joe Sharp. Welcome, gentlemen. How are you, folks?

Amazing. Thank you for the invite.

Thanks for being here. We are joined by Jake and Joe. Their stories embody strength, vulnerability and purpose. Jake and Joe are identical twins, fitness coaches and mental health advocates who have turned their unimaginable loss into a mission to help others heal. After losing their younger brother Sam to suicide, they made a powerful choice to speak up, share openly and to help people know they’re not alone in their struggles.

Through their coaching, podcasting, and advocacy, Jake and Joe are breaking down the stigma around men’s mental health and showing that healing doesn’t mean hiding. It means connecting, feeling and growing strong together. They’re journey is raw, real and deeply human. It’s one that continues to inspire a ripple effect of hope. Jake and Joe, welcome to the show.

I appreciate it. I love the introduction.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jake and Joe Sharp | Men's Mental Health

 

Thank you.

We’re super grateful to be here.

I’m super happy you folks are here. A good place to start if you don’t mind. I’m sure you’ve told the story a bunch but my readers, I want to just give some contacts and give them a sense of where you folks have been and where you are now. Where would you like to start? You tell me.

Turning Pain Into Purpose: Our Men’s Mental Health Origin Story

We give you folks the context of why we started all this, why we started on social media and created a platform of mental health advocacy and why we do Fitness coaching and all that story. It’s powerful to hear someone about their purpose and maybe the darkness that they came through and the light that they share. Jake, if you want to start sharing that.

Did you want to start with Sam? I feel like our main reason and you shared a lot in the intro. It was to create a safe space for mental health. For us, that goes back to losing our little brother Sam. He struggled a lot with his mental health, depression, OCD and shame. We lost him back in 2020. Both of us were in Mexico for church missions. We were not in the State of Arizona, where our family lived. After losing him, we woke up to the mental health world.

It took us a while because it shook us badly. It put us both in a tough spot mentally as well with depression and anxiety in trying to deal with grief. We were struggling a lot with coping with his loss. I feel like a big part of our purpose was turning that pain of losing him to our purpose of trying to help others with their mental health and how they manage their life.

There’s so much purpose behind why we do what we do. We run a group. We run coaching and we help people create healthy lifestyles in the physical aspect. We’re coaches that also focus on mental health as well because we know Sam is with us as we go about our work every day. We’re always thinking of how we could help just one person or someone that may be in the same place that Sam was in. Where he felt that he had to hide or he wasn’t enough or that he made too many mistakes that he couldn’t come back.

All the things that people wrestle with or the darkness of suicidal ideation like me and Jake. We’re constantly driven by, “How do we help that person? How do we give them just a little bit more hope?” That’s what drives us every day, running our group, our coaching and posting about mental health advocacy. It’s showing the individual that there’s hope, there’s light for them and they’re needed on this earth. Also helping and giving them a couple tools to help them.

Grief just comes in ways and hits you out of nowhere. Some days you seem fine, and then some days, you're just wrecked again. Share on X

That’s beautiful. I have to say, first of all, you have a huge fan in me. I follow your Instagram. I’m seeing a lot of what you folks post.

Thank you.

Very inspirational. I’m serious. Awesome stuff. What’s your Instagram handle? Throw it out to my readers.

It’s @JDuoFit and it’s on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube.

Follow these folks. Their stories are amazing. I love what you’ve done here. I have to say I find you folks to be incredibly honest, incredibly down to earth, and incredibly human. For three men to sit around and talk about this type of stuff is rare. There has to be more of this and for you folks to tap into that. I’m on my own fitness journey so I’m vibing with you folks. This past year’s been awesome.

For you folks to recognize when someone’s having a tough moment or a tough day, just saying to them, “We got you. We’re here for you. We’re supporting you. We understand.” That’s huge. I’m looking at that sign behind you. Even just being nice to people. I don’t know why it’s so overlooked but it goes so far to just be kind and say something nice. I’m moved by what you folks are doing and I’m sure of the many people that you’re assisting. Thank you for what you folks do and the work and energy you’re putting out there.

You’re welcome.

Thank you.

I appreciate it. It’s important for my readers to understand, folks. First of all, let me ask. How old are you?

24 but basically 25.

I’m a twin, by the way, so I want to ask you folks these twin questions. I’m fraternal and not identical. I’m sure you folks get those different questions people ask. I want to know. You lost your brother a few years ago and I’m sure it rocked your world. If you don’t mind, folks. Can you tell my readers a little bit about the impact? Any corner of the story that you think would be helpful for my readers to know about death, loss is one thing. A loss to suicide is a whole other level. What do you think?

The Unexpected Impact Of Suicide Loss And Grief

I would agree. It’s a sucky club to be a part of, but we’ve been blessed in a way to know a lot of people that maybe have lost family members to suicide or loved ones to suicide It sucks. It’s the worst. There’s no beating around the bush with that. It’s made a change in her life, not only because it’s premature. He was sixteen years old. We’ve talked to many people that have lost loved ones of suicide and it’s super out of the blue. It’s super unexpected for a lot of them. To give you some backstory. We knew a couple members of our family, especially my mom. She took my little brother Sam to a lot of ketamine treatments, therapy appointments, and medications. They did a lot of different things.

I struggled with depression a lot in high school and I knew a lot. My little brother Sam and I experienced a lot of the darkness of depression and struggle throughout high school. When we’re in Mexico and he died by suicide, it was like it hit us. It’s unexpected. The impact it leaves on someone is it’s time heals. Jake and I are in a different place a few years from death, but there is not a day we go by where it doesn’t hit us and it’s not something that we think about how life could be different. Even with a good time and family.

Sam’s Struggle: Overcoming Perfectionism And Shame

We’re just with family all night and it was the best. You just go back to that and it’s like, “Why can’t Sam be here?” It’s the worst. It’s just the constant nagging of like, “He’s supposed to be here.” It’s a long lasting impact. We’ve come to know grief and all the weird things about grief. It comes in waves and hits you out of nowhere. Some days, you seem fine then some days, you’re wrecked again. It turns you upside down. It’s tough. I would say for the readers, Sam struggles a lot with perfectionism and a lot with shame. He was feeling like he wasn’t ever going to be enough. He stressed so much about the future and it left him deep into depression. Even suicidal thoughts because he thought he had to be perfect.

He thought things had to go a certain way or he was not enough. I know that’s such a big thing, especially now men or young adults. They don’t feel enough at times. It’s my message or Sam would tell us now, “You’re always enough.” He would tell us, “Your human. We’re not supposed to have everything together,” and to hold on to the present, what we have. Continue to work through those paints and those mental health struggles and the future does look bright. It is going to work out as you keep working through it.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jake and Joe Sharp | Men's Mental Health

 

That’s what I want to share and I think Sam would share because that’s one of the main issues he struggled with, his professionalism. It’s okay to struggle. It’s okay. That makes us human. That makes us real people. That helps us connect with others. When we struggle and open up about it, when we’re in pain and we can tell someone and try to work through it. That’s what makes us human and leads to the great moments of life. If it’s hard to see the future now and if it’s hard to feel enough. I want you to know it’s okay to struggle and there is a brighter future.

Something that came to my mind very quickly that is super impactful for me. I’ve had a couple conversations with a good friend and maybe he gets on the show because he just came to my mind. He lost his sister to suicide just a couple years ago. We’ve had a couple deep conversations. He’s such a great dude. His name is Nate and I’ve had a conversation with them at the gym. The reality of grief, the loss of suicide, and just the deeper pain that brings on family and parents. We talked a lot about how losing someone to suicide has changed us individually in some way of blessing.

Being more empathetic. Jake and I didn’t know the side of empathy and also just knowing some of the pains and the darkness and part of life, just the hurt of life. Jake and I grew up in a home that didn’t have a lot of trials like taking care of financial usually. We’re pretty well in the home, but it showed us that life sucks sometimes. This loss both showed us empathy and I got to talk to Nate about that. We got super deep. Maybe that’s the person to get on this show.

I would love to have him on, Joe. It’s a great idea. There’s so much here, folks. Again, I appreciate your openness about this. For a lot of men, it’s just so hard to talk about some of these deeper issues. Especially the perfectionism you were talking about earlier, where they have that pressure on us. The irony is that it doesn’t exist. We’re chasing this thing and we’ll never get it because it’s not there yet.

I like what you said earlier and it’s important for my young adults to take this in that whatever they’re going through will pass. It’s a matter of giving it time and having hope. Your brother went through a lot. It sounds like you went through a lot of treatment and I’m sure a lot of pain. I’m sure there isn’t a day that goes by where you folks don’t wonder what it would be like if we were here.

I know this is a horrible statement to hear but I hear it a lot. I hear kids in my office sometimes saying things like, “People wouldn’t miss me if I wasn’t here.” Nothing could be further from the truth. I want my readers to understand that pain because it’s like that’s a whole that will never be filled and it’s hard to describe, but I appreciate you folks opening up about it. Honestly, the more we can tear down some of those walls and the more we can have conversations. I feel like that’s the use of this show.

I want people to understand like, “If it means listening to this show in the car with your kids so that you folks can have a conversation. Go for it. Have that.” Everyone we help creates a little bit of a ripple. I appreciate you folks. I do appreciate where you’re coming from. I’m curious if we could pivot to fitness and wellness for a minute because I know that’s your main focus these days. Where did that come from? How did that come out of this pain?

From Grief To Growth: The Pivot To Fitness And Wellness

That’s a great question. That’s what we are focused on, to make an effect on the mental health space and all. A lot of people again fall into that perfectionism. That they have to be perfect. They have to be extreme athletes or extreme bodybuilders in order to look better, feel better, and feel enough. We disagree. We want to show people that they can live a lifestyle that they love and see results. It honestly comes out of losing Sam that kept us motivated, inspired and driven to make it happen. We want to help the mental health space. That directly correlates to what we do in physical health.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jake and Joe Sharp | Men's Mental Health

 

Joe and I, with our own struggles, the second part of that. We had a lot of low self-confidence as we grew up, especially in high school. We were not confident at all. We were chubby, skinny fat kids and no muscle. We were slow. We didn’t have a lot of confidence in ourselves. In our senior year, we dropped a lot of the skinny fat and got lean and gained a little bit of confidence then we left our missions. We gain like 50 to 55 pounds in a few short months coping with overeating.

We’ve always had a binge eating habit even through the skinny fat days, but on those church missions, we coped a lot with overeating. When we came back, losing Sam and being fat, those two came together. We were driven and it took a lot of failures. It took a lot of lessons. It took a lot of moments where we did over time and time again, but we learned different lessons. We learned how to build a lifestyle that we love and that’s what we’re focused on. Our whole brand is lean and confident because we do care about your confidence and your mental health. That’s part of what we do. It’s building a lean and healthy lifestyle for you with consistency with something that you love.

I would add to that. We focus on shame and helping people identify shame. We want to make it clear. We’re not professionals. We’re not therapists or counselors that talk through one-on-one with individuals that come to their chair. We know their importance because we’ve done the work with therapists ourselves for our own struggles around things like pornography, food, and all things that we use to cope with throughout the great process.

We imply that in our coaching and our community. Our group focuses on that a lot because we know that shame blinds us. It keeps us stuck when we shame ourselves and attack our identity and think, “We’re discussing. We’re broken. We can never figure this out.” We’re always talking about our identity and shaming ourselves. We can’t move forward. It was my therapist back in the day who said shame is blinding us. You can’t move forward when you have shame there first. That’s what we help a lot of our clients do and our group. We help them identify and begin to tear down that shame and start building new beliefs.

Shame blinds us. It keeps us stuck when we shame ourselves and attack our identity. Share on X

It’s awesome, folks. I completely agree and I hear about it all the time in my office. It is one barrier that keeps people stuck in the mud and from changing. I’m curious. You folks find the gym and your own mental health impacted by lifting and wellness. Can you take us through that a little bit and help us understand where that came from? It sounds like you folks had your own struggles with that at one point.

The Best Antidepressant: Exercise, Lifestyle, And Emotional Management

I struggled big time in high school with my own depression and it was dark. There was another battle after losing my little brother and coming back then dealing with grief and feeling like I was lost. There’s days like when people talk about when you feel that depression or anxiety and it feels physical. It’s like you can’t get out of bed.

I had multiple days after losing Sam like that or it was physical. I couldn’t seem to get out of bed, so I fully empathize with people. I know the darkness that depression can bring and just being wrapped up from shame. Shame from different habits that I want to kick, binging pornography and repeating that cycle and just beating myself up even more. The depression just swallowed me, then finding the gym. We constantly talk about the studies showing exercises are one of the best anti-depressants. What you eat, how much you eat, and the nutrients you get do matter for your mental health. We stress that with all the people.

We truly believe mental health is improved by your lifestyle. Get therapy. Maybe even medication is something that you look into. That’s a tool but without lifestyle, without you changing what you do, how you think, how you believe and what you believe about yourself, your mental health is not going to change long term. That’s what we truly believe with what we’ve seen with ourselves, our journey being not confident, struggling with overeating, pushing heavy weight, pushing our intensity, whether that’s weights, basketball or walking. Learning those tools, those lifestyle changes, overcoming, overeating help our mental health.

They help our anxiety and depression when we learn to manage our physical health. Those two are directly correlated in our eyes. Focus on the lifestyle. Again, therapy is probably one of our favorite tools to build out emotional management skills and work through our grief and our coping skills. If therapy is something you’re looking into, amazing. The same thing with medication. If you can’t seem to get moving, get momentum, medication is a great thing to look into but focus on long term change with lifestyle habits.

What Is Step One? Taking The Smallest Move Forward In Men’s Mental Health

I agree, folks. It’s funny. As you’re talking and you’re talking about a gym or a therapist or eating habits or meds, it’s a matter of trying to figure out where to start. As you were talking earlier, Joe, about getting out of bed. For some, it’s just like putting on pants. It’s like, “I can’t even get dressed,” and just figuring out step one. I have to say too I’ve worked out at a lot of gyms over the years.

Finding the right gym that you can be comfortable at, don’t feel judged and people are welcoming is huge. I’d say the same thing about a therapist. I’d say the same thing even about friends. One of the things that is big is when a person in high school is struggling and going through things like you folks have. Trying to figure out where to start is like step one. What was your step one, folks?

In high school, one of my first steps was to get into therapy. My mom was super good about that. I got into therapy when I was like seventeen years old. Going through the grieving process, I got it to therapy pretty quick just to process the trauma of losing Sam, suicide and all that. That was another good first step but just when it’s hard to get out of bed.

I heard something from someone that was contemplating suicide what helped him when he couldn’t seem to even do anything or think about doing anything that day. It’s just to take the little step possible. Go brush your teeth and take a shower. Celebrate that as a win and celebrate like, “I’m taking one step forward.” It ties so much and that’s why I love fitness, the gym and nutrition. It’s like we have to stop thinking it’s all or nothing or I need to be perfect.

We have to stop thinking like it's all or nothing or that we need to be perfect. Take the pressure off and take one step forward, whatever gets you moving in that direction. Share on X

A lot of things with mental health. It’s like taking that pressure off of you. Quit comparing. Take the pressure off you and take one step forward. Whatever gets you moving in that direction. You don’t have to do something huge that day, but focus on the small little steps and the direction you want to move. That’s what I would say.

My first step honestly would be finding someone I could talk to that’s safe, won’t judge and that will literally just listen to you. I find that after losing Sam, that was probably seriously how I got moving. How I got better from my grief or improved my anxiety was just talking about something that I was struggling with to someone else. That was a big win for me. It’s just connecting with someone and it didn’t even need to look like a conversation that led to a lot of action in that moment. It was the act of me just opening up to someone kept me trusting things can get better. Finding that hope was my first step.

It was me then realizing it’s okay to be where I’m at. It’s okay to be a beginner in the gym. It’s okay to be a beginner with this mental health journey. It’s okay to be where I’m at. That doesn’t make me any less of a human. That doesn’t mean someone else is a better person than me at all or I’m weak. That doesn’t mean that at all but being okay to be where I’m at. It’s like I’m going to learn key things that help my life get better where I’m at, and then find someone to open up to. That’s my approach to that.

It’s huge. We’ll say, folks, I’ve seen my own therapists over the years but many more patients have visited me over the years. I’ve thought a lot about what it is like for a first meeting when a young adult comes in. They don’t know me at all and they’re probably feeling a bunch of different things walking in. What was it like for you folks the first time you saw a counselor or even not a counselor? Jake, as you said, an adult to talk to. What was that like?

The Courage To Seek Help: Trusting The Uncomfortable Process

It can be a little bit uncomfortable. You’re trying to dip your water, dip your toes into something new and it can be a little bit uncomfortable. I feel like again that’s where real progress or real change happens. It’s like, I’m going to trust if I am a little bit uncomfortable. I tell a therapist or someone the truth of where I’m at, the struggles and the things that are hard in my life that maybe I can find some hope. If you don’t find them empathizing or listening, that’s okay.

Real progress or real change happens in the uncomfortable. Share on X

That doesn’t mean you’re wrong and doing that. You talk to someone else or you get a new therapist. That’s okay but it can be a little bit uncomfortable. That’s human nature. It’s having faith or saying, “This is what real change does look like or real progress does look like. I got to be willing to be uncomfortable or sit in that. I got to trust this process.” That’s where it starts.

That’s huge, Jake.

Jake and I both opened up to our parents about the things we were struggling with or depressive thoughts or anxiety. Our parents were very loving, especially her dad growing up. We battle with our own shame around different things but we grew up in a loving family. Stepping into our therapists, Travis’s office, for the first time when we’re younger, like seventeen. It can be very awkward and weird because they are someone that is just here to listen and here to maybe guide your thought process to give you some tools. That’s all the therapist there.

They know how to listen and how to give you the right tools. When I think about that when I first started therapy and then went into therapy for grief, my marriage is like three different things. I’ve learned different things every time and it’s so cool to build skills of emotional management of, “This is why I might be doing what I’m doing or how can I listen better? How can I be that safe space for someone else?” Looking back to embracing not being perfect but embracing the uncomfortable of, “This is me learning and I’m going to this process to learn tools.”

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jake and Joe Sharp | Men's Mental Health

 

It’s very well said, Joe. I use the baseball mentality of like, you got to open your glove up. You got to come into the open. You have to come into it realizing you’re going to learn stuff and that stuff can be applied if you choose to apply it. Jake, use the important word hope. When a person is depressed, they know what the word means but they haven’t felt it for a long time. I would just paraphrase your words by saying take that bold step. Whether it’s a therapist, a coach, a teacher, a parent or another adult. You take that bold step because you want to create some hope.

I applaud everybody who does it. It takes a lot of courage. I’ve got plenty of people break down in my office over the years with all that emotion. I would say to anybody reading, if you’re in that spot, have that courage, find that person and reach out. It’s interesting, folks. I’ve now done enough interviews over the last couple years to talk to several different people about the topic of depression and suicide. Everybody eventually says the same thing, find somebody. Find somebody to connect with, find somebody to be open with and this too shall pass.

It’s all of the same phrases that get said. The more we’re able to spread that gospel and help people understand, it’s tragic and my condolences to you, folks, for your loss. There’s nothing I can say to make it any better other than I’m sorry. Certainly, you folks have figured out a way to turn your loss into something positive. For that, I’m amazed. I am inspired. I’m sure my readers will be as well. I’m sure you folks have your moments. You’re good in your current moments but we appreciate all of what you’re doing. I just want to cheer you on from over here and say keep doing what you’re doing folks because it’s good stuff. It’s helping probably more people than you realize too. It is.

Thank you. A lot of times, it’s when we post or we run our community, sometimes you get those doubtful thoughts and be like, “Are you changing anyone’s lives? Is your content helping?” We appreciate that and we won’t ever stop.

Normalize It Forward: Nominating A Future Guest

I’m pleased to hear that. In the spirit of Normalize It Forward, Joe, you touched on this earlier but typically I asked if there’s a friend, a co-worker or a relative that you want to nominate to have someone come on the show next. Let me know and I’ll do my best to wrangle them in and have them on at some point. Any thoughts, folks?

I’ll send you over Nate. I’ll talk to him too and I’ll send them over and see if he’ll be available doing this.

Thank you, Joe. I appreciate that. I want to thank you for your time, your energy, and everything that you. I want to keep telling you keep doing what you’re doing because it’s inspiring me and that takes a lot. I’m moved. Know that the wellness that you’re spreading is helping lots of people out there. I appreciate it. I do.

Thanks, Marc. It means a lot.

Thank you. We’ll keep doing our thing.

It’s good to talk to you.

 

Important Links

 

About Jake and Joe Sharp

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jake and Joe Sharp | Men's Mental HealthJake and Joe are identical twins, fitness coaches, and mental health advocates who have turned unimaginable loss into a mission to help others heal. After losing their younger brother, Sam, to suicide, they made a powerful choice — to speak up, to share openly, and to help people know they’re not alone in their struggles.

Through their coaching, podcasting, and advocacy, Jake and Joe are breaking down the stigma around men’s mental health, showing that healing doesn’t mean hiding — it means connecting, feeling, and growing stronger together.
Their journey is raw, real, and deeply human — and it’s one that continues to inspire a ripple effect of hope.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dean Daniel | Men's Mental Health

 

The true strength in men’s mental health isn’t toughing it out, but taking off the mask and choosing to fight another day. Marc Lehman sits down with former athlete turned passionate mental health advocate and founder of Unbeaten, Dean Daniel, who shares his raw and incredibly powerful journey through chronic pain, eight spinal surgeries, and multiple suicide attempts. As a proud ambassador for Tough To Talk, Dean opens up about the stigma surrounding men’s emotions, the devastating effects of silence on families, and the life-changing choice he made to live and help others realize they are never truly alone.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

—

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Taking Off The Mask: Breaking The Silence On Men’s Mental Health With Dean Daniel

We are here to talk about mental health and wellness. I am here to welcome Dean Daniel.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dean Daniel | Men's Mental Health

 

Dean, welcome. How are you?

I’m good. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited. I appreciate you for having me for this conversation.

I appreciate you being here. I’m going to run a quick intro to my audience, and then we’ll get into things. Dean is a passionate mental health advocate and a proud ambassador for Tough to Talk, an organization dedicated to breaking the stigma surrounding mental health and suicide. Don’t let me forget. I want to double back and hear more about Tough to Talk.

Through public speaking, podcast appearances, and community work across the UK and beyond, Dean uses his own journey, including living with chronic pain and its impact on his mental health, to show that vulnerability is strength and that speaking up can save lives. He’s the Founder of Unbeaten, a movement and apparel brand supporting mental health charities. More than just a brand, Unbeaten stands as a message of strength, solidarity, and survival, a reminder that no matter the challenge, we’re never truly alone. Thank you so much for spending some time with us.

My pleasure.

From Athlete To Advocate: The Start Of Dean’s Chronic Pain Journey

Dean comes from across the pond, as they say. I hope things are well over in England. I thought maybe we could jump in and talk a little bit about your story and where you’ve been. My audience will want to hear about that.

No problem. I’ll take it back to the start. I used to be a 200-meter runner. I was running for both club and country. I was living the dream. I was living the life that I was destined for. I wanted to make the Olympic Games. I wanted the medal at those games. I wanted to be the best that I could be. Unfortunately, after a successful start to my career, I had a nasty car accident. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to run at that level any longer. As you can imagine, I was devastated by that news, but I thought to myself, “If I can’t make my dreams happen, then I want to help others achieve their dreams.”

I got into the coaching side and personal training side to help others get to where they wanted to go, if I couldn’t get to where I wanted to. I had a successful number of years doing that. I loved it. I loved seeing what I was turning people into, both from a physical and from a confidence and mental side. As we are all aware, the fitness industry, especially when we’re talking about the fitness side, works for both physical and mental capacity. I loved it.

One evening, which is when my story took a dramatic turn, I was training myself. I had gone to the gym. Unfortunately, I’d lifted too heavy with poor preparation. I didn’t sleep and wasn’t eating before that. I felt a sharp lower back pain. As those blokes do, we think, “We’ll battle through. We’ll carry on to the session,” but within about 5 to 10 minutes, the pain was agonizing. I had to finish the session.

I’ll cut a long story short. I got rushed to the hospital, and I had to undergo my first spinal surgery. This was back in 2018. This is when the journey started. Since then, I’ve had eight spinal surgeries. I’ve fallen down the stairs, top to bottom, maybe 5 to 6 times. I’ve developed something called vasovagal syncope, which is where your body is in so much trauma and so much pain that it switches off. I found that out.

Through one of my surgeries, I was on holiday with my young one. It was his eighteenth birthday. We all went through it to celebrate that. Prior to that, I was collapsing. I didn’t understand why. My wife had to conduct CPR on me one random day because I’d dropped down in the front room. We all were like, “What’s going on? Where does this come from? I don’t understand it.” She had to perform that. The defib was called for. The paramedics came. They rushed me to the hospital. That’s when I’d done my tests and checks and found out that this is what I’ve got.

The first time I understood anything to do with mental health was about then because I’d started to realize that I wasn’t the person that I wanted to be, and what I previously was. We went from that point to maybe 2 to 3 collapses a day, which was then preventing me from driving and preventing me from being a normal human being. I couldn’t leave the house without worrying about the embarrassment that I may collapse and an unfortunate stranger may have to find me, putting them through all that stress and strain.

My mental health started to deteriorate quite quickly from there. As you can imagine, it was a shock. Those blokes, as we do, especially within the UK, the stigma around mental health is so bad. I used to lock myself away in the bathroom, turn the shower on, and sit there crying. I then wipe my eyes, come back out like nothing has happened, and be this dad and this husband that I wanted to be. Deep down, I was dying inside. It was awful.

I ended up going on the holiday with my family. To be honest, at this point, my mental health was at rock bottom. Nobody knew. No one could see it, but I was fed up with the pain. I’d lived with this chronic pain for over eight years. I’d gone from a shell of my original self. I felt that I was a burden on my family. I wasn’t the husband that I should be. I wasn’t the dad that I should be. I wasn’t the friend that I should be. I started to deteriorate.

Before this holiday, I was in the hospital. I was on the top floor of this hospital. I looked out the window and I thought, “If I could jump out this window now, I would.” Physically, I couldn’t because I was still getting, at the time, wheeled to the bathroom and wheeled to wherever in wheelchairs and whatnot. That alarm bell started to ring at that point, like, “Hang on a minute. This isn’t right here. Something isn’t right.”  That’s when the mental health journey started.

The Stigma And Crisis: Crying In The Bathroom And Contemplating Suicide

I messaged my wife at the time and said, “I don’t feel well. If I could jump out of this window, then I would.” She contacted the hospital and everything from there. I got support whilst I was in hospital. For me, the alarm bells started to ring at that point. To be honest, I didn’t understand it because I’d never thought that mental health or anything would affect me or would hit me. This person, who was outgoing and a confident guy who was living his best life, however many years ago, has gotten to this point. I was like, “Why me?” I didn’t understand it.

I had another surgery, and I’d come out of that hospital. It was nine weeks altogether in this hospital. I got out and they said, “When you’re going to be in there, you’re going to be doing your recovery period.” I won’t go into too much about it because it’s in an illegal arena at the moment, so I’ve got to be careful about what I do and don’t say.

I was telling people, “My pain is high. My pain is alarming me. This is getting worse.” No one was listening to me, but I was told, “It’s okay. This is a process. This is a recovery stage. This is something that you have to expect. You’ve had a number of spinal surgeries that, unfortunately, are going to do this to you.” I knew deep down that something wasn’t right.

Since then, what we found out was that there were multiple medical failures. I was right. I was failing, which was pushing my mental health. I was right. It was true. Since then, I’ve tried to fight. I’ve had a number of further surgeries since that point. I hit rock bottom at one point. Back in 2023, I had had enough. I said to myself, “I can’t do this anymore. My life is not worth living.”

I looked at my family, and they were seeing me going through all of these issues. They were seeing me going through this pain. It was awful. I said, “I am not allowing this to happen anymore. I need to relieve them of the pain,” although I was struggling with it. It was going to be me who had to make a decision of whether I was or wasn’t here. I needed to make that decision because I didn’t want them suffering anymore because of how I felt.

The Last Holiday: Emergency Surgery And Heavy Medication Load

We then went over on that holiday for my son’s birthday. To be honest, not many people knew at the time, but that, for me, in my head, was my last holiday. I was going to make sure that my son had the best eighteen birthday and had the best holiday. After that, I was checking out. It’s hard because I look back, I didn’t want my son, my daughter, and my wife to be without their dad and husband, but I had to make that choice because I felt it was the best for them.

We went on holiday. I ended up collapsing over there twice. On the day that we were returning home, I collapsed quite badly on a restaurant table. I was rushed to the hospital. As I was coming around, my nine-year-old daughter was screaming, “Is Daddy going to Heaven?” I’m lying there, trying to talk, saying, “I’m here,” and then I blacked out.

When I woke up, I was in intensive care in a Spanish hospital. I won’t go into too much detail because we’d be here all day. I went in there, having been told that there were failings from the UK. We needed to do emergency surgery because issues were occurring, and I was losing sensation down my legs. I had to have emergency surgery in a foreign country and then got air-ambulanced home. For the second part of the surgery, it was a nightmare.

That’s crazy.

In turn, my mental health was spiraling because I’d heard all these things about what had been done to me and why I’ve been left like this. Having to leave my family in a foreign country and having to be this person that wasn’t me was horrendous. My medication was increased. I was on 36 tablets a day. I don’t know what you guys have in the States, but I was on the likes of Oxycodone to Panadol, Tramadol, Pregabalin, and Diazepines to name a few. High-end pain medications. It was turning me into a person that I didn’t want to be. I didn’t know who I was. Toward the end of 2024, I had had enough. I said, “This life is not for me.”

Everyone experiences pain differently, from different angles and life maps, but when you're in it, that sharp pain feels like yours alone and no one can take it away. Share on X

Before I say any more, I have to warn you and anyone who’s reading that there’s a talk of suicide. I had had enough. I stopped the medications. I said to my wife, “I can’t do this any longer. I can’t do it.” She said to me, “You’ll be okay. Let’s keep going. Keep fighting.” Deep down, I was crumbling inside. I was having this strong outer exterior of, “Look at me. I’m okay,” but inside, I was turning into mush.

I managed to get out of the house with high levels of medication and alcohol. I took myself out of the way and attempted my life on that occasion. It was at the point where I felt that nobody else needed me. Everyone was better off without me. Although they suffered at that time, in the long run, my perspective was that they would feel better down the line because they wouldn’t have to watch me go through what I was going through.

I should have been sectioned, but they took me to a hospital. I was found by a couple up in the woods. They called the police. I was then taken to a hospital. I had to do all the reversal treatments and whatnot. They wanted to section me, but because of my chronic pain and my back issues, they suggested, “Let’s not put him in that type of environment. Let’s take him home, but make sure that the house is a secure unit.” We did that, but in turn, that made my wife lose her job, which was more financial stress and a burden on me. I felt like that was my fault.

I was spiraling by this point. It got to the point where enough was enough. I tried to listen to the crisis team and to my family, but there was only me who could experience this pain. I always say this. My pain was my pain. Other people experience their pain as well from different angles and different means. Once you’re in that pain, you know that that’s your pain, and no one can take it away from you.

The Ultimate Act Of Despair: The Window Jump And Turning Point

I was saying to everyone, “Although you’re trying to help and you’re trying to speak to me, I understand it. I respect what you’re doing, but you haven’t got a magic wand to wave it away, and then I’m okay.” I was respectful to the team. The crisis team was amazing. They were here every day for me. They were supporting me, but it wasn’t enough.

One evening, I realized that the window was left open. We were on the top floor of our house, and the window was left open. I said to my wife, “Could you do me a quick favor? Could you nip down and grab me a cup of coffee?” I knew my intentions, and obviously, she thought she was going to make a cup of coffee. She went downstairs, and I managed to get up onto the window ledge, jump the window open, and jump out backwards in the hope that that would end the suffering that was me, the family, and everything would stop. I was hoping this would stop, and they could get on with their lives without me interfering. That was the turning point for me.

As you can appreciate, I woke up. I don’t know how, but I’m so glad that I did. I woke up, and it was like something out of a movie. There were flashing lights. There were sirens. I had my wife screaming and my family having a breakdown on the floor. I couldn’t move from my neck downwards. I could move my eyes. I thought, “What am I doing to my family here?”

The destruction and devastation that I was causing was horrendous. You can never take it away from that individual who’s going through that suffering and that pain, but you don’t see what it’s doing to the people around you and what it will do moving forward. I remember looking, and I thought, “I have to stop this. I have to fight. I can’t do this to them. It’s not fair,” and then I blacked out.

I woke up in the hospital. I don’t know how, but my mom was there. We’re such a close-knit family. My mom gave me the biggest cuddle, and she was crying. She was like, “Dean, you are here for a reason, the reason why you’ve survived this. You’ve had two attempts on your life. You fell down the stairs from top to bottom.” I fell down the stairs. I’ve gone through the wall at the bottom where my head has gone through. I’ve gone through all that. I’ve had all these medications thrown at me. I’ve had these vasovagal collapses in random places. I have damaged my wrists, my face, and my knees wherever I’ve landed. She was like, “There’s a reason why you are here.” I looked up and said, “Yeah, I know.”

I stayed in the hospital for two weeks. When I came out of the hospital, I lay in bed, and I was in agony. My wife said, “How are you doing?” I said, “I’m okay. I realized that I need to live, I need to change, and I need to make sure that I can help people from getting to the point I got to.” I get a bit emotional thinking about this bit. She said, “We’ve got CCTV up around our house. I need to show you something. Do you want to see it?” I thought, “I know what’s coming.” She said, “The paramedics had asked that we see the footage of the CCTV to see how you landed in terms of injuries and whatnot. Would you like to see it?” I didn’t know what to say, but I thought, “Let’s do it.”

She passed me the iPad, and I read it. I opened it up and I was like, “That was me?” It was awful, honestly. At that point, I turned to my wife and said, “This stops now.” She said, “What do you mean?” I said, “I’m going to change. I’m going to make a difference. I’m going to make sure that nobody gets to the point that I got to and that everyone can realize you can be a normal guy or a normal lady.”

From wherever you are in the world, you can quite easily get to the point that I got to, from the first alarm bells ringing to the thoughts that you next get to the point where you’re attempting your life. I look back and I’m lucky. I’m lucky that I’m still here. I’m lucky that I’m able to sit here and talk to you, meet some amazing people along the way, and help.

I’ve said that I will carry on going and make sure that I save as many people as I can. I used to say a bit of a cheesy word. If I could save one person, then that’s amazing. I’ve done my job, but there are so many people out there that are going through these struggles that I don’t want to save ten. I want to save as many people as I can.

No matter where you come from in life, no matter what area, your religion, your race, or wherever you’re from in the world, it can hit you. Mental health doesn’t choose its targets. It hits you, and it hits you hard. When it does hit you, we need to make sure that we’ve got the resources and support, and we know that we’re not alone.

Breaking The Stigma: Why Everyone Is Susceptible

I have a thousand questions. I’ve got to order them in my head. Number one, thank you so much for your honesty and your vulnerability in telling us your journey. I’m so sorry to hear what you’ve been through, but I want to thank you and tell you that we’re the lucky ones that you’re still here. People like you allow my audience and their families to understand that we are all susceptible. It doesn’t matter your background. It doesn’t matter how much money a person has. It doesn’t matter where they’re living. It doesn’t matter what school they’re going to. I want all people to understand, who are tuning in to a show like this, that we are all susceptible.

I have a good friend who runs a company, Same Here Global. I’ll give them a shout-out. Eric often says five in five. Meaning, the stat is 5:5. We are all susceptible. When a person glazes over that and says, “Not me. It never happened to me,” they run into more issues. Your story resonated with me on so many different levels. I can’t imagine any of my audience reading it, not having similar experiences, so thank you.

Thank you very much. I do a number of keynote talks around the UK and the world, wherever it takes me. I always say that I want people to relate to me. I’m no one. I always say this. I’m nothing special. I’m a guy from Teesside in the Northeast of England who has been through some dodgy cards or some bad cards but has come through them in the end. There were times maybe I shouldn’t have come through, but there’s a reason why I have. If I can do it, then so can anybody else because I’m nothing special. I’m just a normal guy.

I want people to be aware and help break the stigma around mental health and suicide. Share on X

There are people out there who will be reading this, thinking, “If he can do it, then so can I.” That’s what this is about. This isn’t about putting someone on a pedestal. This isn’t about making someone out to be a hero. That’s not me. I want to make sure that people are aware, and we break that stigma around mental health and suicide. I want to show people, “This is okay. Yeah. You are not alone.” We come together when we unite, and we talk more.

What you said about vulnerability is so right. When I do my talks, I always say, “I might as well stand in front of you all, strip off, and show you an open version of myself, like, ‘I’m completely naked here.’” I’m sure my vulnerable side is there. If that helps other people realize, “There is light at the end of this tunnel, and there is a way out,” then so be it.

I hear you. You mentioned men in particular. It’s so fascinating when I read about this online and how many men put that mask on. Your story about crying in the bathroom, so many of us have been through that over the years. We feel like we have to hide it. We feel like we have to wipe our tears away. If people are like, “Are you okay?” We’re like, “I’m fine. Everything’s fine,” and that whole thing. You’re not fine. What I want to push is getting young adults to understand that this is powerful. When you are not fine and you tell everybody you’re fine, you’re giving it more power.

It’s true. You’re feeding it.

Unfortunately, it’ll beat you. It’ll climb higher than you. I’ve got kids that I know that try to harm themselves, do harm themselves, fail out of school, etc. To me, it is recognizing this isn’t about strength. This isn’t about, “I’m a strong guy. I can handle it.” This is about being human. This is about how, in your circumstances, which are different from mine and different from other people’s, we are all susceptible. This thing can take us down.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dean Daniel | Men's Mental Health

 

I applaud your efforts, number one, for not only being open and honest and vulnerable with us, but also talking about your comeback story. To me, the mere fact that you’re still here and we’re talking, and we’ve had a chance to meet, I consider that a gift. To me, that’s amazing. Let me ask. I’m curious. You mentioned your kids. How old are your kids, if you don’t mind me asking?

Ten and nineteen.

Crucial Advice For Young Adults And Parents: Take Off The Mask

A lot of my readers are young adults, between those ages, in many ways. For young adults in the United States and around the world, the statistics for mental health are not great. I read 65% of kids in the US who need help aren’t getting it for lots of different reasons. There’s a lot of suffering that goes on in silence, a lot of mask-wearing, and a lot of pretending. I want to give you a chance because you’re talking, in many ways, directly to them and directly to their parents. That’s my audience. I want to give you a chance to talk to them and to let them know from your perspective what would be helpful for them to do to try to address things. What do you think?

Personally, it is to take that mask off and to realize that you’re not alone. You may lock yourself away in your bathroom, your bedroom, or something like that, or you’re trying to put that mask on to go outside. It’s okay to take that mask off and say, “Listen, so-and-so friend. I’m not well.” You can go to your parents and say, “I’m not feeling too well. Is this something that I need to be concerned about?”

When it happened to me was when my wife found me at one point, and I was hysterical. I kicked the dog bed. The dog wasn’t in it, thankfully. I screamed out. She came down the stairs one day and said, “What’s wrong?” I said, “I can’t do this anymore.” Although I didn’t want anyone to see that, it was fine to do that because that’s how you could then get the support. We went to the GP, who then referred me to the crisis team. If you don’t open yourself up and your emotions and allow those thoughts to be released, then you can’t follow that next process.

From a parent’s side, I look at it from the perspective of my kids. I look at my little one and what she’s been through in terms of seeing me. I can laugh about it now. She came in at one point, bless her, and her dad was on the floor. I was on the floor, at the bottom. I’d gone through the wall at the bottom of the stairs. I had a full-body head thing on from the ambulance. I was on a spinal board. My little one comes in, and she has to see all of this.

You’ve got to look out from her parents’ side. I look at the telltale signs if she’s reserving herself a little bit more. I’m watching what she’s watching on her iPad or a TV. I know she struggled a little bit. Sometimes, we would see that she is quite quiet in the corner of the room and quite upset. We would say, “Are you okay?” She’s like, “I’m fine.” She’s putting that mask on and thinking, “I’m okay.” My son was the same. He locked himself away a lot because he didn’t like to see me going through that.

It’s looking at those telltale signs as well and thinking maybe it’s having a conversation and sitting down. Whether it’s to your parents, your friends, or your children, open up and show them that there is support there. I’ll be honest. When you’re in that place, you feel that there’s no support. You feel like you’re on your own, and there’s no one else who’s going through it. Unfortunately, there are so many of us who are going through it. If I’d have known a little bit more than what I know now, it may have helped those thoughts.

When you're in that dark place, it feels like there's no support and you're completely alone, but the truth is so many others are going through it too. Share on X

That’s great advice. I mention it to a lot of kids that I work with, “If you Google it, you’ll see statistically that there are a lot of people going through it.” It’s amazing. You and I work hard to break through that stigma and get people to understand that this is way more normal than people realize. It can get pretty bad and affect a lot of people around them. I appreciate that.

The Daily Fight: Self-Care Through Ice Baths, Music, And Meditation

A gold standard suggestion of finding somebody to talk to. It doesn’t even have to be a therapist. It could be a coach. It could be a friend. It could be a friend’s parents. It could be anybody. Let somebody know, “I’m not doing so great. I’m not in a great spot.” In many ways, that opens the door to getting some assistance. I’m curious about the level of how you’re taking care of yourself these days. You brought us through your story through 2024. I’m curious how 2025 is going for you.

I’m still in a lot of pain. The surgeries that I’ve had previously took me to a point where there will be no further damage going forward from that area of the spine, but it doesn’t mean that the pain, the suffering, and whatever else has happened to my body from that will clear up or dramatically change. I’m still in a lot of pain. I’m not in the levels of 10, 11, and whatever else. I’m still in 7, 8, and sometimes 9.

I do a lot of my own treatments. I’ll go and do ice cold therapy. I’ve got an ice bath in the garden. I do meditation. I listen to music. There are certain things that take my mind away from that side. I never used to think, “I don’t believe in meditation. I don’t think that will work for me.” It’s amazing if you can find something that takes your mind away from those thoughts or that moment.

For me, it’s pain. If my pain levels get too high, my mind starts to revert back to that point where it’s like, “Here we go. Is this pain? Is it back to the point where I can’t go in anymore? Is it back to the point where I don’t want to be here?” I’ll go in the tub, and sometimes, I think, “What am I doing?” Especially in the UK at this time of year, it’s not the best of ideas. I’ll go in, and for those fifteen minutes, I will focus.

Through my athletics, I’ve always been competitive. I’ll always try to compete against myself and go, “I’ll do an extra minute,” or, “I’ll do an extra two minutes.” Before you know it, those thoughts are starting to gradually go to the back of your mind again and start to ease a little bit. Sometimes, I’ll go in the shower or in the bath and put some music on. It brings me down a little bit. Although this is getting, maybe getting a little bit much, that’s easy by one type of treatment, music, or whatever.

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Great ideas. From that, I take, and certainly, I point out to my audience as much as I can, that self-care doesn’t have to be anything extravagant. When you take a look at, “This makes me feel better,” and it’s not hazardous, then do it. It could be a simple walk around the block, an ice bath, or music. Music is huge. Music is amazing. It’s a big part of my world.

We can get to so many different genres, and those genres make us feel differently. There’s calming music and exciting music if we want to work out, if we want to do this, or if we want to do that. It’s using that to our advantage to be able to center and help us block out some of that noise and stuff that’s in our heads. I appreciate those suggestions. They’re helpful. I’m curious. Is your nineteen-year-old in school?

He’s at university.

What have his experiences been like? Is this his 1st year or 2nd year?

It’s his first year. He has moved away from the area as well. He has moved a seven-and-a-half-hour drive away. He said he wants to open up and live. He’s an amazing guy. He works hard. He will be successful in the future. He’s working in law.

Good for him.

The university he’s going to is supposed to be amazing. It’s hard for me because I’ve come to the point where I’ve come out of that awful, dark place. I appreciate life. I appreciate meeting people like yourself, being able to speak to people, and people listening. It has humbled me a lot. I always say this. Although I’ve been through that shit that I went through, I’ve had to go through that to be the person that I am now.

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It’s part of your journey.

This is it now. This is a new me.

Good for you.

I realized that there is more to life. Your loved ones appreciate everything that’s going on around you, even if it’s something so silly. Once it’s gone, it’s gone. When he goes to university, I’m like, “Oh,” because as a family, we’ve had a rough 8 or 9 years. Now, I’m like, “This is the time that I want to be me. I want to be a dad and a husband.” At the same time, when he goes there, we’re on the phone every day, video calling.

I want the best for him. For him to go down there and live his life as both a student and as a young man who is opening his life, like, “I’m going to make a difference. I’m going to do that,” I’m here to see that now. I’m blessed and grateful that I am able to see him flourish in his life, whereas a couple of months ago, he was nearly doing this alone.

When we talk about stuff like that, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he would’ve done that because he may have felt that he needed to stay here. He needed to support his mom and the rest of the family. My actions at that point could have changed the way his life turned out as well. It’s important. Everyone who’s reading needs to realize that. It doesn’t just affect the individual. It affects the whole network around you.

Death Is Permanent: The Devastating Impact Of Suicide On The Whole Family

No doubt. You hit on something super important. I want to emphasize it a little bit. Those individuals who have gone down the road of depression and gotten to the point of considering or attempting suicide, I often will hear patients talk about a convincing discussion that goes on in their head of, “Everybody would be better without me. Somehow, me taking myself out of the mix would make their lives better.” I’ve never seen that, and I’ve treated families post-suicide. It’s a hole that never gets filled. Life is always much worse.

You make a great point when a person goes through that. We’ve got waves in our lives of crappy times and good times. When you’re in that bad place, if you decide, “I’m going to make this move,” that’s it. It’s over. There is no more time.  I appreciate you saying what you said because to me, your son has benefited from you being here still.

As a parent, I’ve had kids in college. I think about how there are two sides to that. He gets to go, and you’re missing him, but you’re also thinking, “That’s what he’s supposed to do. I’m so proud of him.” There’s so much to that that we could talk about for hours. I appreciate you saying that because there’s a lot of misunderstanding from people when they talk about this topic. Suicide, let’s face it, is so hard to talk about. Please, everybody. Understand that I’ve never come across, and I doubt I ever will, a person who takes their own life, and it isn’t dramatically impacting everybody around them.

When I had the crisis team in and they were coming to my house, they informed me of what would happen if anyone had died by suicide. Let’s say it was me. I don’t know the exact statistics, so don’t quote me on it, but I’m sure it was an excess of 80% chance that the children will follow in those steps. I don’t know the exact numbers, but I’m sure it’s high. For me, 1% is high enough.

I’m close, especially to my daughter as well. She’s a daddy’s girl. We are close. It sounds awful, but she would be the type that would, because we are so close. We’ve got such a close bond. We are, as a family or as a whole, anyway, but with how we are, I look and think she could have been another one of those statistics. That breaks my heart to think that. Although I would’ve taken myself out of this pain and suffering, there would’ve been a heck of a lot more coming to her, my son, my wife, and whoever else around if it worked.

After the crisis team spoke to me and after we’ve come out of it all, the mental health nurse comes over and speaks to you. I don’t know if you’ve got the same process back over in the States, but you get your own designated person to deal with you. It was quite surreal and quite emotional when she said it. They had a meeting. When she came out and she knew what I was doing, how I’ve improved, and how I’ve gone from that point to this point, she said, “I’m going to tell you something now, Dean.” I said, “What’s that?” She said, “We had a board meeting, and you were the one that we thought we would lose. There was no question and no doubt that we would lose you at some point.” To hear that was surprising.

Although things may look like everything is against you and everything is too much, it shows that it isn’t. You can make it through, like me. I’m grateful because everyone around me can see the difference in me. What happens within the family as well as the whole unit changes. I look back now, and they were probably walking on eggshells. They were concerned about how if I say the wrong thing, then my mind would go into another place.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dean Daniel | Men's Mental Health

 

Mental health never switches off. This is the thing. People think, “I’m over that now. This is okay. One day, I’m okay. The next day, that’s it. It’s gone.” With mental health, you’re still going to have these ups and downs. I call them blips. I had one not long ago in regards to pain. I fell down a hotel stair reception, and it affected me. My mind started going, “Here we go again, Dean. What have you done now?” It was a blip. I have to be kind to myself and go, “This is okay. It’s a blip.”

You said this earlier and touched on it. Once you make that decision, death is permanent. There’s no going back. Once you’ve passed, you can’t go, “I wish I hadn’t done that.” You’ve got to be so careful because once you make that decision and go, there’s no going back. It’s sad. We’ve got to stop people from getting to that point. Listen to your mind. Listen to your thoughts and feelings.

A lady once spoke to me. I’ve got myself on men’s mental health groups. She came in, and it was the men’s mental health group. We were like, “It’s fine,” and got talking. After the meeting, she came back. We were chatting about something, and she said, “I didn’t realize how talking to someone can make that much of a difference.”

She was telling me about her family and whatnot. She said, “I want to get the person to come down, sit in here, and do your mental health group with you. I said, “I would love that.” She said, “I don’t think he appreciates his life at the moment either. He has gone through whatever he has gone through, but he is at the point where he’s thinking life is life.” They need to hear some other truths from other people. They need to hear other journeys and stories to realize that life could be a lot different.

In my groups, I have people who have sadly lost people as well. They’re coming to learn because they think, “I wish I did this. If I’d have done this, could so-and-so still be here?” That alone is a burden and trauma to hold for themselves. It isn’t the case. That’s why I do my groups as well, because people can open up, listen, and say, “I lost so-and-so two years ago. Would it have changed if I had maybe done this?”

I will say not from a professional side, but from an experienced side, “It doesn’t matter what you would’ve said and done at that time.” My wife could have said the right things, which she did. She did and said the right things, but I still did what I did. I always like the other side or the family to see, “Don’t hold yourself accountable for anything because it’s that individual who, unfortunately, is going through it.”

No doubt. I go back to your mom’s words. You’re still here for a reason. It has become clear to me in talking with you what that reason is. You have an impact on people with your story and your rebound. I love how you said what you said. Mental health doesn’t go away. It’s a constant push, like lifting weights. You can’t stop. It’s part of your lifestyle. I like that concept a lot.

Continuing The Conversation: Dean’s Nominations for The Next Guest

Let me ask you. I want to put you on the spot for one second. With normalize it forward, when I put it together, my initial thought was that I want to keep the conversation moving. It’s so important. I met you through our mutual friend Shakka, an amazing artist out there in the UK. For those that don’t know him, look him up. He’s fantastic. I had the opportunity to meet some amazing people along the way. One of the ways that happens is I have the people I interview nominate a friend, a coworker, a relative, someone who you think would be helpful for me to interview next. Any thoughts as to who you’d like to nominate?

Yeah. I’ve got two. One would be my wife. What we were touching on there was that you see it from a different side.

I’d love to talk to her.

Everything that I’ve said in terms of making me feel like I was a burden and they were good without me, she’ll have the other side. When we did one of my talks a few weeks back in London in an amazing event called Ideas Fest, which was such an amazing event, she came in. She’s not been to many of my talks because it’s raw and emotional. I imagine that if the tables were turned and that was her standing on that stage talking, I would be exactly the same. She sat right in the front row. She was there, and she was sobbing. It was tough for her. One of the ladies who organized the event came out. I don’t know if you guys have got a TED Talk over in the States.

We do.

One of the guys had come in and was asking a Q&A after the talk. I had brought her into the conversation. She had done a bit of a talk, and I said, “What you should do is a TED Talk.”

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That’d be great.

I was like, “You’re getting the story from both sides.”She’ll say, “I never felt like that. I’ve never felt like this. In my head, this is how it felt.” That might be a good way.

I would love to talk with her. That’d be great.

I’m an ambassador for Tough to Talk. That’s around breaking the stigma around men’s mental health, going into workplaces, and educating men from the ground upwards to show that we can show emotions. The more education we have, in the next lifetime, it’s going to improve. There’s an amazing guy called Steve Whittle. He has had his own journeys and his own story. I’m sure he will love to speak with you. He’s such a great gentleman. We are so aligned in what we do. That’s why I went to his organization and said, “I’ll be honored to be part of it.” He’s an amazing guy. Hopefully, you can get him for an interview.

I’ll get their info from you offline. I appreciate the nominations and hope to get them both on the show. That’d be fantastic. I  want to thank you again. I know you’re busy, taking the time to talk about these things. You scrunched it into a short period of time and did a great job telling us, because I know this is something that could be talked about certainly for many hours. You’ve been through a lot. I want to let you know, at least from my perspective, that I admire your strength and your ability to continue to push forward and help others. To me, that’s one of your superpowers. Keep up the good work. It was great talking to you.

That means a lot. Thank you so much for the opportunity. It’s been a pleasure meeting you and letting my story out to all your readers.

Our pleasure. Have a wonderful day. Take care.

Thank you. You too. Take care. Bye.

 

Important Links

 

About Dean Daniel

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dean Daniel | Men's Mental HealthI am a passionate mental health advocate and proud ambassador for the incredible organization Tough to Talk, with a dedicated mission to break the stigma surrounding mental health and suicide.

My goal is simple but powerful: to be a voice for mental health. I amplify stories of resilience, promote access to vital resources, and inspire hope through honest, open conversations. By sharing my own journey including the challenges of living with chronic pain and its impact on my mental health I aim to show others that vulnerability is strength, and that speaking up can save lives.

Through speaking engagements across the UK and internationally, podcast appearances, online platforms, and grassroots community work, I strive to empower individuals to prioritize their mental well-being, seek support without shame, and understand that recovery is a journey, not a destination.

I believe in the power of compassion, education, and community to transform how we as a society view and treat mental health.

I’m also the founder of Unbeaten a movement and brand that will feature on clothing apparel, with proceeds supporting mental health charities. Unbeaten is more than just a brand. It’s a message of strength, solidarity, and survival. A reminder that no matter the challenge, we are never truly alone.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jill Weinstein | Adolescent Mental Health

 

Navigating the complicated landscape of adolescent mental health requires empathy, support, and an open conversation. Marc Lehman welcomes Jill Weinstein, an LPC, mental health professional, and Clinical Director of Ignite, an adolescent mental health program at the Berman Center in Atlanta, who shares her insights from over 20 years of experience. The conversation explores the “big shift” of young adults leaving for college, the importance of proactive support—including managing legal shifts like FERPA—and the complicated, multilayered issues facing teens today. Jill and Marc also discuss reframing self-care as daily moments of awe and joy, the need for healthy relationships with social media, and the powerful role of community and connection in healing.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Unpacking The Complicated Layers Of Adolescent Mental Health With Jill Weinstein

I’m super excited to welcome a fellow therapist, Jill Weinstein. How are you, Jill?

I’m good. How are you? Thank you for having me.

Fantastic. Thank you for being here. Jill is an LPC, mental health professional, and clinical director based in Atlanta. She is a licensed professional counselor with over twenty years of experience working with adolescents and families on issues like anxiety, depression, eating disorders, and OCD. She co-founded and serves as the Clinical Director of Ignite, an adolescent mental health program at The Berman Center, emphasizing holistic family-involved care and incorporating mindfulness, yoga, CBT, positive psychology, and experiential therapies. Jill, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me.

The Big Shift: Emotions When Your Child Leaves For College

Jill, let’s jump in. You had shared with me offline. You have two kids. One is heading to school. It made me think a little because my kids are a bit older. It made me think back to what that was like for me when my first one went off to college. That’s a big shift. A lot of my readers are probably in that boat or have been in that boat recently. What’s that like for you?

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jill Weinstein | Adolescent Mental Health

 

It hit me the other day. I love my husband, but there is a different love with your kids, like physical love. I don’t think he will ever come back to Georgia. There’s sadness because I know this phase of life is over. He’s not going to live in my house again. There’s sadness with that, and then there’s an excited part of me to see him grow and where he’s going to go. He’s such an amazing kid. I love being with him. I love being with my kids. It’s all a bunch of emotion.

You’re speaking right to me directly, Jill. My son finished school in May. For everybody who needs a timeline here, we’re taping this in July. He’s heading to law school.

Congratulations.

Thank you. We’re here in Connecticut. He’s going to St. Louis. It’s the same vibe. We know that they’re going to do great things. That’s fantastic. We’re excited for them, but there is sadness that goes with it. I’m so pleased that you were able to communicate that, and we could share that a bit.

All my kids, I thanked them. I was like, “Thank you, because I would have never experienced this love without you.” I thanked my husband for giving them to me because I would have never experienced this love.

Unpacking The ‘Complicated’ State Of Adolescent Mental Health Today

It is a great way of putting it. It’s amazing. It is beautiful. As parents, it’s our job to be able to get them to this place and let them spread their wings. I appreciate you sharing that. Let’s jump in. Let’s talk a little bit about mental health and wellness. The integration of that and a lot of what we’ve been talking about already, as I’m sure you know, there’s a real surge in adolescent mental health, not in the right direction, particularly on college campuses. Integrating the two topics for a lot of parents, they’re not necessarily understanding what mental health and wellness are like for adolescents and teens as they’re growing today. Can I ask you the huge question?

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jill Weinstein | Adolescent Mental Health

 

Yes.

How would you describe the mental health and wellness of teens today?

The first word that pops to mind is complicated. Everything feels more complicated. There are more layers to it. I think back to when I started the program several years ago. Those kids versus the kids who are joining my program now are very different. The kids now are more complicated and have more levels of issues and more dysfunction within the family. Several years ago, it was still complicated, but it didn’t feel like there was so much more going on. It was more straight anxiety or depression. Now, you have so many more layers.

Complicated covers it.

That’s the first word that popped into my mind. That’s what it feels like.

That’s a good segue. Tell us about Ignite, the program.

Thank you. I’ll give you the long story of it. Alyza Berman started The Berman Center. She had a client who was living in a sober living. The client wanted to come home for the Jewish holidays. The sober living was like, “No, you can’t.” Her parents brought her home anyway. The client ended up overdosing and dying. She found drugs online, overdosing and dying. It didn’t have to be like that if maybe some things were more in place.

Alyza was also working as a Clinical Director at another intensive outpatient treatment program and saw some of the unethical things that were going on in the mental health world. That could be a whole other show. She is very much like, “Jump in.” She had to do something. She started The Berman Center, an intensive outpatient treatment program for young adults, for those eighteen and over.

She wanted a place that is culturally competent. Anybody can come. It doesn’t matter who you are. You are more than welcome to come. She created this space based upon Jewish values, but you don’t have to be Jewish. It’s all about community and connection because that’s what heals people. Alyza and I have worked together forever. Our families are best friends. I was working at a private school in Atlanta. I saw an increase in anxiety and depression.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jill Weinstein | Adolescent Mental Health

 

At that time, these amazing kids would leave school. They would go to alternative schools, but they would never get their clinical needs met. At that point, I was like, “I feel like we need to do something for adolescents.” Each year, when I was working in the school, I could see the increase in anxiety and depression, and kids leaving school. She had this space. I came to her. I was like, “You have the space.” Her program at that point was only from 10:00 to 1:00.

I was going to create a program that was after school, because the pushback, sometimes working with families, is after school. They could still stay in school and would come to me from 4:00 to 7:00. She had this space. I was like, “Why don’t we do this for kids?” I jumped into it and created a program after school for kids, always being mindful that they are in school. We collaborate a lot with the school. We now have a partial hospitalization program that has an amazing school program that will help the schools and help the kids stay on track. It’s been amazing.

That’s unbelievable.

It’s pretty crazy.

You’re simplifying it, but I know better. There’s a lot that goes into this.

It’s a crazy story for me to think about. My therapist will say to me, “Jill, you created the program that you needed as an adolescent.” I struggled growing up with trichotillomania and OCD. Obviously, anxiety and depression go with that. I didn’t realize that creating this program, how healing it would be for me, and my own inner child. To be able to give to these kids is probably what I needed as a kid, and to create a healing space for them has been my life purpose.

You do some amazing things. I joke sometimes with my family and say my Christmas is in May because my program is mostly college kids. Every May, I get these pictures of kids who graduated. They’re in their gown. Their parents are smiling from ear to ear. Every single time, that was a kid who we didn’t think would make it, and they did. You just know. When you have a hand in that journey, it doesn’t matter how big or how small, you know that their life has changed. That’s amazing. I’m thrilled for you guys. I’m thrilled that there are so many adolescents being helped in your area. It is a huge issue.

Families that have their ear to the ground understand that. A lot of families get to college, for example, and do not recognize how big an issue. You were commenting on it earlier. I want to come back to it if I could for a minute. This world is moving so fast. For lots of us who have been to school years ago, we look at kids going to school now. We know it’s different. You’ve been through the journey. We know the intensity to get into the school.

Proactive Parenting: Tips For Managing College Transition Stress And FERPA

It’s unbelievable. When you get there, it’s maintaining that because there are lots of kids who don’t end up staying. You’ve had lots of adolescents and their families come through your program. When you think about tips, suggestions, or things that you find yourself saying to lots of families to help young people manage their daily stressors better, what comes to mind?

Especially kids who I’ve worked with, I don’t want to say they’re at greater risk, but there’s a big transition when you’ve been in a program for mental health. I always tell parents, “Be mindful of that because that’s a big struggle. It’s triggering. Things could come up again.” The benefit is that they have all these skills now. What I tell parents is to always have an open, honest conversation with their kids about going to college and having check-ins with them virtually. See what’s going on. Set up support at school, whether it’s through the college counseling, having a therapist that they can go and see, or virtually setting up that support for them and checking in with them.

Having those conversations is helpful. If they need accommodations, when it comes to schoolwork and things like that, it is about helping them put those things in place. I went to the pediatrician with my son. I have no say in anything. He has to sign the form so I can talk to the pediatrician. It’s making sure that you have all of that in place. If your kid has had a history of struggling, not to say they’re going to struggle, it’s just putting things in place. It’s scaffolding. It’s putting it in place. In case things do go on, you’re there to help.

You are being proactive.

It’s thinking ahead. Mel Robbins had a quick little thing about the first month of college. It is going to be hard. You’re going to run and run. You’re going to think it’s not right for you. All these feelings and emotions are going to come up. It’s knowing that. You don’t know your schedule. When you’re living at home, you know where you get your coffee or where your friends are. You have to reestablish all of those normalcies again. It takes time for that to feel normal. It is having those conversations with kids that it is normal to feel this way.

I can’t tell you how many kids have said to me over the years, “It’s been thirteen years since I’ve made new friends.” I want to throw in, too, in case, MamaBearLegal.com for families that are reading. It is a great site. If you’re interested in getting what’s called a FERPA, and I won’t go into the details, but as you were mentioning before, Jill, when kids turn eighteen, schools will not talk to you about financial, academic, and health stuff unless you have a FERPA in place. Go on there. Talk to your student about it.

If they agree, it’s a nice, easy way. I’ll give one example. A lot of families are shocked when they’re writing the check to the school, and then there’s an issue. It’s like, “I’ll call the bursar.” They call the bursar. They’re like, “Ms. Weinstein, it’s nice to talk to you, but you’re not the student. I can’t talk to you.” You’re like, “I pay the bill.” Little shifts and changes happen for us as parents and for them. I appreciate you bringing that up.

I agree. Have open conversations with kids and a recognition that the first few months, the first semester, are going to be challenging. It’s going to be topsy-turvy. I equate it to the learning curve at a part-time summer job. You don’t get everything down in an hour. It takes you a little bit to understand the job, everyone’s names, and all of that. This is on a larger scale. It’s going to take kids and parents.

As a parent, it’s hard. When I worked at a day school, new kids were always coming in. They start school in August. We start school early down here. It’s crazy. Some kids are already back in school. From August to October, I would always remember that around Halloween, most kids would find their groove and their friends. Those who didn’t, that’s when, as the school counselor, I would try to step in and do behind-the-scenes things to help connect them.

It’s probably the same with college. It takes some time, but then it’s also on the parents and knowing it. I know it’s going to be hard when he calls me crying or calls me upset. I know that I have to regulate my own emotions, take some deep breaths, and be like, “He will be okay.” Here’s the end. If it doesn’t work out, and if this isn’t the school for him, he’s not married to it. It’s very easy to find another.

It’s not prison. You can leave.

We’ll figure it out. That’s part of life. The biggest thing as parents is knowing you’re going to get those calls. It’s going to be hard. They’re going to feel left out. They’re going to be frustrated. How do we manage our emotions around those conversations, because it’s hard?

One of the hardest parts of parenting is knowing the tough calls will come — when they're frustrated, left out, or hurting — and learning how to manage our own emotions while supporting them through it. Share on X

I like what you said. You should err on the side of predicting they’ll happen. That’s typical. I’ll give you a piece of advice.

Yes, because you’ve gone through it.

A good friend of mine gave this to me. It helped. He has a couple of older daughters. He said, “This is what they’re supposed to do. This is what we’ve prepared for. This is the big dinner. We’ve prepared for this. As hard as it is not to have them in our house as much as we miss them, it allows them to grow in a way.” I can say this. I’ve had students who go to school locally and stay home. There’s nothing wrong with that. Commuting is fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. I’ve had A/B tests in front of me forever, my entire career.

I’ve watched kids go off to school before I did virtual work. They go off to school. I see them three months later. They’re different kids. They’ve grown and matured because they’ve taken care of themselves A to Z. I know it sounds silly, but doing your wash, bringing yourself to the dining hall, making sure you’re getting your work done, and all of that, it grows a kid up. I’m excited for you and your family. It’s an awesome journey. As I said, I’ve been through it.

Congratulations to you on law school. That’s exciting.

Reframing Self-Care: Finding Daily Moments Of Awe And Joy

Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Let’s shoot over to a different topic, but related. Self-care is a buzz phrase that you used a lot. I had my own definition of it, but I’m curious. You treat adolescents. I’m sure that’s a topic that comes up a lot. What does self-care mean to you?

I always think about and explain self-care. It’s doing something every single day. It doesn’t have to be an hour long, but something that makes you feel in awe. I go outside, and I look at the trees. I’m like, “That’s a beautiful bird.” That feeling of awe connects us to something bigger than us. It can come in different ways. It’s taking those few moments to find awe or joy. It’s so easy to forget about and to go through our days.

We’re so busy. We’re onto a million things, but it’s also then teaching your kids, which will help them in college, taking those little moments, whether it’s gratitude or that awe moment to ground yourself. You’re right. Self-care is big. When we talk about it, it feels like it has to be an hour. We need to go to the spa. We need to do all that kind of stuff. That part is great and amazing. It’s about doing the little things. It’s like why you brush your teeth. That’s self-care. If we look at mental health self-care in a different way, just like why we brush our teeth 2 to 3 times a day, it’s the same thing. You’re taking care of your body.

It’s a great point. I actually said that a lot to family. It’s funny you brought that up. When you and I talked offline before this, and you mentioned you were taking your kids out to lunch, you had that look on your face. Self-care comes in those forms where you’re like, “I’m spending some time with people I enjoy,” even if it’s moments. I love what you said. We’re role modeling that for our kids. That will teach kids in so many different ways, things like gratitude, appreciation, and slowing down. We’re all on this super fast-paced track.

You think about how COVID did teach us because we couldn’t go anywhere to slow down, but I don’t think any of us have held on to that. My kids slowed down, but I was still working and doing virtual. It was different. Not that I miss those times, but the slowness.

It was simpler.

I’m all for it.

Social Media’s Impact: Teaching Healthy Relationships To Teens

This may be a can of worms, but I’m going to ask you about it anyway. It comes up so much with me and the families that I work with. You mentioned COVID. Two huge things that have impacted anxiety and depression in teens in the last several years have been COVID and social media. I’m wondering, in general, about your experiences and your thoughts on the connection between social media and mental health.

I definitely think there is a correlation. I sometimes push back when we’re like, “Poor mental health is because of this.” I don’t. There are great things that come out of social media. It’s all in moderation. It’s like back in the day, when it was like, “No red dye or no sugar.” You’re going to have sugar. Nothing good. Your kids go to college. They’re going to sit and eat, or they go to a friend’s house, and they eat sugar all the time.

There are great things that come out of social media. It's all in moderation. Share on X

It’s teaching people how to have a healthy relationship with things, social media being one of them as well. If you sit and scroll for hours and hours, you don’t feel good. I understand it’s also a way to zone out. It’s having these conversations with people about what it is doing for your mental health and teaching them to have a healthy relationship. If I’m going on sites that show these super thin women, it is how I feel about myself, and having talks about it.

As adults, what are we modeling to our kids? If I’m getting home from work and I’m scrolling on my phone, they’re going to do the same thing. If I sleep with my phone at night, they’re going to do the same thing. It’s having those healthy conversations. Social media plays into it. When I was growing up, if there was a party, I had no idea. When there’s a party, and you’re not invited to it, it is about talking to your kids, “That feels hard. It feels bad,” and validating what they’re feeling.

You make a great point. In many ways, I jokingly call them adult pacifiers. As a baby, lots of parents will give their kids pacifiers to help them soothe. What I do with young adults is I watch some young adults misuse them. They’re overusing them. They’re using them in ways that, unfortunately, impact their actual socialness. You and I are sitting. We’re talking face-to-face through virtual means. I can’t tell you how many kids I role-play with going to college at eighteen, because I know that having these kinds of conversations is hard.

It’s almost like from our generation to theirs, the small talk of, “What’s the weather like? How are things going? What’s new?” That doesn’t happen much anymore. Those connections, unfortunately, I see them being impacted by social media. A young person said to me, “I’m going on a social media cleanse.” That’s the first time I’ve heard that phrase, but that’s great. I’ve done it myself. If you’re not sure individually how social media is impacting you, take a full seven days off.

You’ll see. You know. It’s learning where your boundary is. Where’s your line? What is it? It’s also funny to see what you thought. I get some great articles out of social media. You connect with people you haven’t seen in forever. That’s the positive. It’s the relationship. When you take a cleanse, I’m sure you’ll see.

It’s amazing. You also find that you didn’t miss much. You didn’t miss anything, actually.

No, you probably read more.

Old school, pick up a book. Good stuff. It’s been awesome connecting with you, Jill. I appreciate the work you’re doing.

Thank you. You, too.

Thank you. Those down in Atlanta, look up Jill and her program because it sounds like you guys are doing some awesome things with young adults. I could put you on the spot real quick before we finish and ask that. The way I created Normalize It Forward was that I wanted the conversation to keep continuing. I’ve had some amazing conversations, as I did with you, as well as with other individuals. What I usually ask is for someone to nominate a friend, a coworker, or a relative that you think would be helpful to interview next. Does anybody come to mind?

There are so many. One popped in, a former client, but I can’t break it.

It’s okay. How about this? How about you think about it? I’ll get information from you offline if there’s information I can get from you. We’ll get them on the show as soon as possible. How’s that? Sound good?

That sounds great.

You Are Not Alone: The Power Of Community And Connection

Jill, to give you the final word, is there any message you have for families? You’re talking to lots of families that are tuning in to this show. Is there any message you have for families, moms, and dads who are struggling with adolescence nowadays?

One, you’re not alone. I know it feels like you’re so alone, especially if your child is not on the traditional track. You’re not alone. It is for parents to seek out supportive people in their community, because sometimes, we struggle alone in isolation. You don’t need to be in isolation. There are those communities out there to connect to. That goes back to our program. Connection is the opposite of depression. It heals you tremendously. Find your support. You’re not alone. It’s like riding the wave. It feels hard, but you’ll get through it. Have your people by you.

Connection is the opposite of depression. It heals you tremendously, so find your support. Share on X

I would add one more thing to that, Jill. Not only are they not alone, but if the parents don’t believe us, google it. The statistics show that the majority of kids nowadays are struggling with mental health issues. When you think you are alone, Google actually has its positives. You can look it up and take a look. It’ll make you feel good that this isn’t something specific to your family. Lots of kids out there are struggling.

When you get to a point where you open up, sometimes you’re shoulder to shoulder at a soccer game, or you’re talking to a neighbor. You find out, “I had no idea they had those struggles going on in their house.” Lots of people don’t tell each other. When you make that connection, it is amazing. Jill, thank you so much for your time, your energy, your thoughts, and your expertise. It was awesome having you on.

Thank you so much.

Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Thank you.

 

Important Links

 

About Jill Weinstein

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jill Weinstein | Adolescent Mental HealthJill Weinstein, LPC, RRT-P – Mental Health Professional & Clinical Director Based in Atlanta, she is a licensed professional counselor with over 20 years of experience working with adolescents and families on issues like anxiety, depression, eating disorders, and OCD.

She co-founded and serves as Clinical Director of Ignite, an adolescent mental health program at The Berman Center, emphasizing holistic, family-involved care and incorporating mindfulness, yoga, CBT, positive psychology, and experiential therapies.

 

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