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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Monica Wizinski | Mental Health And Wellness

Mental Health & Wellness: A Guide To A Balanced Life With Monica Wizinski

August 5, 2025June 13, 2025

Mental health and wellness are more than buzzwords; they’re the very foundation of a life lived fully and joyfully. In this powerful and heartfelt conversation, we journey into the core of well-being with Monica Wizinski, a masterful professional coach who’s made it her mission to help people reconnect with their authentic selves. With her deep expertise in conflict resolution and a remarkable talent for listening between the lines, Monica guides us through the complexities of modern life, particularly for young adults navigating a world that’s constantly buzzing. We discuss the significance of crafting a personal “village” of support, the art of slowing down amidst the chaos, and the undeniable truth that self-care isn’t selfish—it’s a necessity. Prepare for tangible advice on managing the noise, discovering real joy, and embracing the power of presence in a world that insists on speed. Monica illuminates the path to finding your inner center and cultivating a sense of peace that radiates outward, affecting every aspect of your life. If you’re seeking a way to anchor yourself in this whirlwind of existence and build a lasting sense of well-being, this episode is your compass to a more centered, vibrant, and truly healthy you.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Mental Health & Wellness: A Guide To A Balanced Life With Monica Wizinski

We are here to have an open conversation about mental health and wellness. We welcome Monica Wizinski. How are you?

I’m great. How are you?

Good. Thank you. Monica is a professional coach specializing in personal growth, conflict management, and organizational development. With a background in mediation and deep listening techniques, she’s dedicated to helping individuals gain clarity and enhanced communication and achieve a balanced work-life integration. Through her coaching practice, Monica offers a supportive environment for clients to explore their aspirations and overcome limiting beliefs. She’s active on social media, sharing insights and promoting self-healing and growth. Monica, welcome to the show. How are you?

I’m great. Thank you again. That was a great intro. I’m happy to be here to talk about mental health and wellness with you. It’s such an important topic. I feel that the more we talk about it, the better it is.

Demystifying The Life Coach: Navigating Change & Building Confidence

I agree. Let’s jump in. A lot of my readers may have questions as to what a life coach is. Do you want to take that on and let us know, or give us a sense?

Sure. As a life coach, one of the things that is very helpful is to help guide people to navigate through change and transition and also help them develop concrete, practical tools about how they can have greater self-confidence in their life, how they can navigate challenges, and how they can improve their relationships with building communication skills.

It’s quite a vast field. Some of us coaches specialize in different areas. In my case, because I’ve worked a lot with conflict resolution and that kind of thing, I found it was a natural progression of moving people from conflict or uncertainty into a little bit more clarity and forward movement. A lot of this is based on self-leadership, which is something that I advocate for. I feel that with building the right tools and creating the right structure around ourselves, we can feel well supported to make smooth and easy transitions that help us move forward and elevate into what we want and what we’re looking for in our lives.

Building Your Village & Taming The Pressure Cooker

Thank you for that description. That was great. My head was thinking about a number of transitions. I suppose at some point, we could all use a life coach to help us.

We should all have a life coach. We should all have a massage therapist.

I agree.

I don’t like to say should, but the more support and the more infrastructure that you can create in your own life builds your village or your community. These are difficult times for so many reasons. It’s very fast-moving. There’s so much disconnect that’s happening. I feel that any movement that you can make towards a greater connection is important. Many years ago, people raised children in little villages. We had a family. Everyone was part of a greater community. How, in these times, can we build more community, more connection, and more support, and help each other?

The more support and infrastructure that you can create in your own life, the more it builds your village or your community. Share on X

That’s a great point. I feel like we need to get back to that in some ways. Everybody is siloed, and our mental health is suffering as a result of that. I’m curious. You’re located up in Canada. Down here in the States, the statistics on mental health, especially for young people, aren’t pretty. Anxiety is way up. Depression is way up. Suicidality is way up. Can you give us a sense? Are those numbers mirrored in Canada? Are they different in Canada?

I don’t know the numbers exactly. I even have clients who are university students who are looking for clarity and trying to understand how to deal with pressure and how to also regulate their family lives and their relationships. There’s so much going on, like hormonal stuff and everything. We have a lot of expectations because things are moving so quickly. We are placing a lot of pressure, often unnecessary pressure, and then there’s no outlet for how to cope or manage within that. It all starts with the family structure, so it starts young. It all begins there.

Sometimes, as kids are changing and they’re no longer babies anymore, and suddenly, they’re becoming adults, as parents, we don’t know how to cope. It’s difficult. We’re all always working. Everyone’s busy, and then everyone’s disconnected. We’re lucky if we’re getting a meal around the family together. We’re lucky if we’re sitting and having nice heart-to-heart conversations. We’re losing the simplicity of things.

Sometimes, it’s the little actions that make so much of a difference in a relationship. Whether you’re talking about a family relationship between parents, you’re in a professional setting in the workplace, or you’re in a relationship with your love partner, sometimes, it’s the little things of a little helpful hand, allowing people to know that you’re there and you’re present, and listening and being present.

We’re always about production, achievement, and moving forward, but it becomes very mechanical. It’s not coming from the heart. The heart gets missing in all of this, even though the heart is in the right place in most cases, We all want the best, but how do we move from that place of every day stuff, busyness, pressure, overwhelm, and stress into a place where there’s expansion, curiosity, and a little bit more stepping back and being open to understanding and hearing the person that we’re with in a relationship with? That could be a parent-child relationship. It could be in the workplace. It could be with your professors. It could be with your boyfriend, girlfriend, or anyone else.

Those are such great suggestions. On a large scale, we need to slow down. I present a lot to families online, teach classes, and so forth. One of the things I noticed that’s laced within all of my presentations is listening more than talking. My kids are 24 and 22. When they were born, I remember for a moment thinking, “I can take them home? You’re going to trust me?” As parents, we don’t know anything. It’s like on-the-job learning constantly.

Your point is good in that we’re learning how to do these things at every stage. When we get one stage down, we move on to the next one. Even more, there’s a lot of pressure on young people. It becomes, in some ways, our job at home to do what we can to relieve that pressure and give them some space to not feel so intense all the time and not feel like they’re chasing something. I’m not even sure what they’re chasing.

Self-Care As Self-Leadership: Finding What You Need Right Now

That’s making me think of something when you’re speaking about that. There is that responsibility that we have to the loved ones around us and the presence that we need to provide, but it also comes back a lot to our own selves. What I mean by that is there are so many amazing tools and tricks out there in terms of mindfulness.

Let’s say as parents, or if we’re going to even talk about our own selves and what we’ve all been through, and even for youth, for teens, or for anybody, it’s taking a moment to find out, “What do I need right now? Do I need to take a break from this situation? Do I need to step out? Do I need help? Do I need to take a breath for five minutes and come back to it? Do I need to explain myself?” It’s so tricky.

Using tools like mindfulness is something that is supportive in the process of slowing down. I know I go a mile a minute all the time, but I also know when to stop. I have scheduled stops and breaks with myself where I eat, do yoga, breathe, journal, connect with myself, get somatic therapy, or whatever it takes to be in touch with myself and what is happening. This is something that’s so accessible and available. I feel that as role models are in a relationship, a lot of it is role modeling also, so the other individual that we are in a relationship with can also feed off of that.

Beyond The Buzz: Real Self-Care For Mental & Physical Wellness

It’s a great point. It’s something I talk a lot about on the show, which is self-care. Self-care is something that, clearly, you and I do to give ourselves some room because if we are moving intensely throughout the day and we don’t do that, our own mental health and wellness suffer. That’s not only important for parents and partners, but it is also important for young kids to understand. If you are going to move intensely throughout your day and you don’t have any way to let the air out of your tires, at some point, your tires are going to explode.

Turn it off.

You made some great suggestions. Breaks from technology are super helpful.

They’re important.

When you think of self-care, especially for young adults, what else comes to mind?

It is fitness and health, like eating properly and sleeping well, which also is related to the social media stuff. A lot of students are not taking the time to feed themselves. It could be simple things like having a little breakfast, getting in your meals for the day, and drinking your water. It could be all the basic stuff of going out for a quick jog and maybe joining something that raises funds for charity. You can run or you can support others. Be involved in tennis or play a sport.

Whatever it is, you need to have a physical outlet. It’s so critical. I realize that more and more as time goes on and the more and more people I speak to and coach. It’s that balance of physical, mental, and emotional that comes together in one whole picture. If one area is lacking and suffering, then all the areas are being depleted.

Feed your body. Do self-care. There are classes out there. There are retreats. When I was 17 and 18, I was going on meditation retreats. It was weird then, but now it’s not weird at all. Yoga was crazy back then. People were like, “What? You do yoga? What do you do? Twist yourself?” Now, there are 45 million different kinds of yoga, and everyone does it. It is about having mindfulness.

Mindfulness is any activity that allows for self-reflection, alone time, thoughtfulness, slowing down, having some soup, hot chocolate, or something on a cold day, and saying, “What do I need right now?” It could be talking to a friend and looking at who my close ones are and who the people are that matter. Sometimes, we spread ourselves all over the place. It’s like peanut butter on toast. We can’t be everywhere. We can’t do everything. We have to recharge, unplug at times like a battery, a computer, or anything else, and reset.

It’s different for everyone. For some people, it’s external. They like to go out and do stuff, and that charges them. Other people like to do internal, quiet things like take a bubble bath and journal or something like that. It is whatever it is that feeds and nourishes you. It is finding how to come back to your reset and how to come back to your center, so you have a sense of mindfulness and you’re able to keep going on and take a break when you need it.

That could be the best definition of self-care I’ve heard. From my perspective, for young adults, it can’t be scrolling. It can’t be social media. It has to be something for themselves. I always tell young people, “Find one thing. Find a place to start.” Maybe it’s water. Do you know how many kids out there are walking around dehydrated? Get a decent amount of water.

That makes you so tired.

Get decent water intake for a week and tell me how you feel.

It’s a simple thing.

There was so much of what you said. I’m hoping my audience reads something and they’re like, “I’m going to try that.” There’s journaling, yoga, meditation, breathwork, water, and exercise. Exercise is huge. There are so many forms of it.

Who doesn’t want to love and take care of themselves? The problem with social media is that there’s so much pressure. There are expectations, comparisons, and competition. It is and it isn’t real, so it’s confusing. The one thing we can do in North America is to find your center and be your individual self. How do you stay in the center of the storm? How do you stay grounded?

Find whatever it is that feeds and nourishes you. Come back to your reset and center, so you have a sense of mindfulness and you're able to keep going on and take a break when you need it. Share on X

There’s crazy stuff happening on this corner. Someone is going through a lot as a friend, and you want to be helpful and supportive. Your parents are putting this kind of pressure on you. There’s this expectation to do well, succeed, and be successful. There are a lot of moving parts, so find your ground. Find your center and breathe. Maybe it sounds like hippie stuff, but it works.

The Chase Without A Target: Understanding The Modern Intensity

Whether it’s hippie stuff or not, it works. I’m curious. Like me, you work with students as well as what we’ll call post-students or employees in the field, if you will, out in the community. I’m curious about your viewpoint on this. In my 25-year career, I’ve noticed the intensity and the chase from young people getting worse. I’m not even sure what they’re chasing, I’ll be honest. Maybe it’s a better school or a better job. They think it’s happiness, but it’s not. They’re not chasing happiness. I’m curious. What have you noticed in your career? How has that changed in the last many years?

Everything’s so much faster. When you’re going fast, you have to keep up. I grew up in a generation where we played hockey on the street. We were running around to people’s houses. Everything was different. Now, we’re safety conscious a lot more, which is okay and fine, but there are a lot of measures in place. It’s more sophisticated and more complex. The whole world is more complex. The things that my younger children know about, I didn’t know about until I was much older. We’re being exposed to so much more information download, and there’s so much more consumption.

That is true.

The opposite of consumption is creativity or production. If I can get a little philosophical for a moment, it’s like waves, the contraction, expansion, consumption, creativity, and output. We all want the same things. From kids to grown-ups, we all want to be able to be seen, heard, valued, and understood, to share our stories, and to live in peace and harmony.

We all want the same things. From kids to grown-ups, we all want to be seen, heard, valued, and understood, to share our stories, and to live in peace and harmony. Share on X

That sounds great.

It’s all there, the extreme pressure, extreme uncertainty, and confusion. It’s a whirlwind. It’s a crazy world out there.

That’s well said. The pace is tremendously faster. I was reminiscing as you were talking about the way you grew up. That’s the way I grew up. That’s the way a lot of adults grew up. It’s not the way kids are growing up. There’s an intensity to the number of activities kids are involved in. A 4.0 is no longer good enough. It doesn’t stop. At some point, we’re going to have a 5.5 or a 6.5. I don’t know.

I watch the suffering that happens as a result. You’re asking kids to be perfect in some ways, and there’s no such thing. When you have a kid who’s doing three activities simultaneously or when you have a kid who’s trying to bust their butt doing well in school and they’re doing their best, but their best isn’t good enough, there’s suffering that happens.

Anxiety and depression are huge in our world. I’m watching kid after kid talking about it in my office. They’re talking about their friends who are suffering. A lot of parents are looking for, “What can we do?” One thing we can do is be mindful of that and realize we’ve got a little control over how much we sign our kids up for. We’ve got a little control over what our own expectations of grades and school are. I had a parent in my office, and it was so refreshing to hear. He said, “I don’t care about your grades. I care about how much effort you’re putting in.”

That’s beautiful.

He said, “If you’re doing your best, I’m fine with it,” which was refreshing.

It is nice to see that type of attitude, which is having a little bit more compassion, understanding, and easing off on the reins. There are a lot of these helicopter parents. Even if you were horseback riding or something and the rein is that tight, the poor animal is going to be acting up, and you’re not going to get the flow that you want to achieve.

I’m imagining. I don’t know. 99% of parents want the best for their kids, but how do you create that environment? What is their part in that? I feel a part of it is that step back, listening, and not bulldozing. You’re not rolling them down the hill and telling them what they need to be doing. We have to respect one another. Respect is almost a loss.

Don’t say that.

We’ve got to keep it going.

I hear you.

Simplifying Life: Reconnecting With What Truly Matters

We have choices. As a child or a parent, there could be a big conflict or a big difference where somebody wants this for you and sees with their own experience, wisdom, knowledge, and everything else what they believe is best. Then, there’s a blossoming whole person who has their own preferences and has had them since they were two years old. They liked tomatoes or didn’t like tomatoes. We have to step back, listen, be curious, and also take the moment to see how we can ask more questions and try to find common ground.

Those are all great suggestions. I walk the line. I don’t want to come off sounding like I’m blaming parents because I’m not. I’m a parent. What we’re doing is we’re making suggestions. Some parents want to know, “What can I do differently to assist?” Pulling back is hard or scary for some parents because they assume, “If I pull back, then my son or my daughter won’t step up.”

Mind you, I had a strict mother. My father was like, “You got 5 out of 10. You got half right. That’s incredible.” It was the glass half-full. She was like, “What? You got 9.5? What happened? Is there a problem? What have I done wrong?” At least I had that little balance there. It’s not about perfection. It’s about keeping progress happening and connecting with your child in simple things. It’s not always about serious conversations about where you are going in your life and who you are with. It’s not always the heavy stuff. It’s sitting around at the dinner table or watching a TV show and having a chit-chat.

It is allowing openness to be there so that they know they can turn to you in hard times. It is being there and having those conversations in the car when you’re driving to an activity and not always making it about, “How was school? What happened today?” They’re like, “I had a hard exam,” and you’re like, “I told you to study.” Stop and listen. Be mindful. Step back, be more curious, and say, “How did that make you feel? What would you have done better?” Ask more questions and stop feeding and telling. I feel like I’m against the parents, but I’m not.

It’s a great suggestion, though, because some parents will ask in such a closed way. They get a closed answer, and they’ll say, “My kid doesn’t talk to me.”

Be there and do stuff with your kids, too. We’re so busy. The parents work so hard. It’s tricky to balance all the stuff of life for all of us. Remember how you used to go cross-country skiing. Remember how you used to go fishing together. Do those things from time to time. If it’s art, then do that. Find some bonding activities that are not related to success, progress, perfection, and the future. Be present.

Be present and spend time. That’s a great suggestion. That leads to my next topic that I wanted to ask you about, and that’s time management. I feel like poor time management for a lot of young people leads to a lot of anxiety. A lot of adults could work on this as well. I’m curious. I’m sure that’s a topic that you’ve worked on with individuals. What have you noticed in the past that has been a helpful suggestion or tip around time management?

Time Hacks & Joyful Breaks: Conquering Procrastination & Finding Enjoyment

There are two ways. First of all, a lot of people will do all their little tasks first. You make a list, go through it, check things off, and then say, “Eventually, I’m going to get to this big thing. I have to do the dooming thing that is on my back that is the dark, dooming essay I have to write,” or whatever it is. It’s the reverse that’s true. Take the first 90 minutes of your day or even 1 hour with your tea and sit down, write, and do the difficult thing a little bit. It’s a drop in the bucket. Don’t leave it to the last minute. If you don’t want pressure, you know it’s going to happen.

A lot of it is scheduling things. There are calendars, tools, and so many apps out there that can help you. There are coaches who can help you. It’s also focusing on your day and when you’re most effective. If some people work well at night, after supper, they can plow through doing whatever it is they need to do. Other people are morning people, and they function in the day. Try to think about when you function best and schedule important stuff. You can do all the other things later, the quick things.

Those are great suggestions. Many of my students come to me and they’re self-disclosed procrastinators. I procrastinate. I get it. Everybody does, to some degree. We all know where that goes. We all know if we push something off, it doesn’t magically get done. We have to do it anyway. I like what you said, which is chipping away at it.

There are a ton of good task-related apps out there. None come to mind, but I’ve had so many people use so many different apps over the years. I suggest to my audience to think about whether there is something out there that you could use as a tool that might help keep you in check, chunk it up a little bit, and face that difficult item that we’re looking to avoid. Every student knows what that means. I would imagine in the working world, too. Those are the kinds of things that, if they haven’t been resolved, they come back up.

They do come back and haunt you. It’s nice to build that resilience up. Remember the amazing feeling you’re going to have when you know it’s done. That builds more and more confidence. Refer back to those episodes of those situations where you accomplished something great that was not necessarily easy to do and was big, and you did it. Refer to how you got through it. Referring to those reference points is also a helpful tool.

Let me ask. I know you’ve got kids. Do you have a couple of kids?

I have a boy and a girl.

As do I. Let’s eliminate them for a minute and ask this next question. Enjoyment. I feel like for young people, enjoyment is overlooked. They might even look at us and go, “They don’t enjoy life.” I’m curious. What’s your go-to? What do you enjoy on a day-to-day? If you have some free time, what do you enjoy?

Daily Enjoyment & Future Insights: Finding Happiness & Next Steps

I have to tell you that it is the most beautiful question because enjoyment is so overlooked on a daily basis. I get enjoyment out of being with my family. Being with my loved ones gives me a lot of joy. I also have to be in that state of mindfulness where my head is clear. What I do is I intentionally have to put my phone away. Even I, as an adult, put my phone away because otherwise, I want to text myself another reminder or say, “I have to check this quickly.”

Enjoyment is so overlooked on a daily basis. Share on X

Be here. Be now with the presence of these people, these humans that I love so much and that feed me on such a deep level. There are no words for it. It happens immediately. I get enjoyment out of being with my family. I get enjoyment from doing activities that recharge me. I seek that out. People that I find fun to be with, are very supportive, or are wonderful, cool people that I love being with, I will spend some concentrated, designated time with them. I know it’s very compartmentalized, but it has to be. I take that and savor all the diamonds from that. That charges me for a couple of days.

I love it. It’s compartmentalized because it’s strategic. You want to make sure that you enjoy life. For me, it’s music. I love music. Sometimes, I’ll combine that with going to a concert with my family, music with exercise, a spin class, or something like that. For me, that is an enjoyable thing. Even if I have five minutes to listen to a great song, I’ll do that because that creates enjoyment for me.

Everybody should have several go-tos. Those are things that create enjoyment for you. For my readers, I ask that you guys think about it. Think about what your go-to is. I would expect it would be different than ours, but I would hope that if you don’t have one, you’d find one. Enjoyment is something that is overlooked. Honestly, if they’re not strategic, they may not be focusing on it, which is problematic.

Last question. I’m going to put you on the spot for this one, but this is a good question to ask. Part of the show is I like to have the conversation continue to move forward, so I usually will ask my guests to nominate a friend, a coworker, or a relative who you’d think would be good for me to interview next. Do you have a sense of who you’d like to nominate?

I have three ideas. I’m not exactly sure which one.

You can nominate all three. That’s fine.

I’m going to nominate a gentleman named Scott Simons who works in health and wellness. He is a very interesting person who I know practices what he preaches a lot. He’s involved in building something called the Be Human Club. It’s growing. He’s an entrepreneur. He’s worked a lot with companies and individuals, providing meditation, yoga, retreats, and all things fitness. He’s had an interesting background, where he has a lot that he can connect to in terms of mental health.

That’s fantastic.

I also have a lady by the name of Randy Brandman. Randy Brandman is the School Counselor at St. George’s here in Montreal. She’s a wonderful experience. She works with youth as the school counselor. She’s a very wise, knowledgeable, fun, and relatable person. She’s also a parent. I can go on. I have a lot of contact, so I don’t know where you want to go with this.

I have another friend who is a life coach. He has formally and probably still does his work as a suicide prevention group leader and trainer for many years. He has dealt mainly with the recovery groups for parents who have lost a child and also with people who have been in deep depression, and is working with suicide. He’s veering a little bit more into coaching, but he also still has that. That’s been a volunteer position for quite a long time.

That’s fantastic. His name?

Greg Kligman.

I appreciate this. Let’s get them all on the show. That’s the way I look at it. They all have amazing perspectives. The more the merrier. We can continue to have this conversation. To me, it’s important that young people are reading about us adults talking about this and normalizing the topic because it’s here and it’s a part of their world. I appreciate your time. Those of you looking up Monica, it’s Monica Wiz for short. Would you want to give us your website and your information so people could look you up?

Yes. It’s MonicaWiz.com. I’m on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

That’s fantastic. If you’re interested, reach out, certainly. Those of you who have an interest in connecting with us know where to find us on UAreHeard.com. Again, thanks for your time. I appreciate it.

Thanks so much.

Have a wonderful rest of your day. Take care.

Thank you. Bye.

Bye.

Important Links

About Monica Wizinski

Monica Wizinski is a professional coach specializing in personal growth, conflict management, and organizational development. With a background in mediation and deep-listening techniques, she is dedicated to helping individuals gain clarity, enhance communication, and achieve a balanced work-life integration.

Through her coaching practice, Monica offers a supportive environment for clients to explore their aspirations and overcome limiting beliefs. She is active on social media platforms, sharing insights and promoting self-healing and growth.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Olivia Healey | Social Anxiety

How Teens Should Handle Social Anxiety With Olivia Healey

July 22, 2025May 23, 2025

Many teenagers these days, despite their interconnectedness through digital means, are suffering from social anxiety. Their mental health is not that well, and panic attacks are becoming all too frequent. Actor and screenwriter Olivia Healey shares how she uses her storytelling skills to help young people deal with these challenges and become more open to creating genuine relationships. She warns about the dangers of social media, particularly its adverse effects on teenagers’ social skills and awareness. Olivia also opens up about her own experiences with social anxiety and how she overcame these inner battles to unlock her fullest potential.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

How Teens Should Handle Social Anxiety With Olivia Healey

I’m so excited to welcome Olivia Healey. Olivia, welcome. How are you?

Thank you. I’m so excited to be on your show. I’m doing well. How about you?

I’m great. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it. Let me read through your intro for a moment here. Olivia Healey first discovered her love of storytelling at the age of ten when she played Juliette in Madeline’s Christmas in Atlanta, Georgia. She pursued theater for six more years before realizing the depth to which she could take her craft in front of the camera.

Since then, she has appeared in various featured films, such as Grounded, The Family Plan, etc., and moved to LA to actively pursue her career in acting. Not only is Olivia an actor, but she is an average screenwriter as well. She has written over 60 scenes for clients in both LA and Atlanta, and wrote the impactful short film Breathe.

Breathe was screened in June 2023 and received praise from multiple recognized mental health organizations. Olivia has worked with the highly regarded Berman Center to screen Breathe and inspired their patients to express their anxiety through art. She looks forward to continuing her journey, bringing Breathe to more organizations in the hopes of reaching a broader audience. Welcome, Olivia.

Thank you.

That’s awesome. I viewed it myself, and it was awesome. Breathe was tremendous. Those of you who haven’t looked up Olivia and haven’t looked up Breathe, please do. It is worth your while. I’m curious. Can I jump in and ask you a little bit about that?

Please do.

Finding Purpose In Screenwriting

Your acting career began young, right?

Yes, very.

You then began screenwriting at the same time or after? How did that come about?

After. It came about through necessity because I wanted to tape something to send to the casting directors and agents when I was starting out in the screen acting field versus musical theater. I wanted to play a mean girl, but I couldn’t find the exact mean that I wanted to be on TV and film. Thirty minutes before I went to my coaching, where I was going to tape this little clip, I decided, “I’m going to whip up my own script.”

I wrote myself a very mean girl scene that scared my cousins in Texas and used that to get my very first agent. I had such a blast with that that I decided to keep going from there. Since then, I wrote Breathe. I’ve written for clients both in Atlanta and Los Angeles for little scenes that they can put on their reels, like I did for casting directors. I’m writing a screenplay, which you’ll be seeing within the next ten years on a big screen.

You guys read it first. That’s cool. What is that about?

It is about an unlikely friendship between a high school senior and a man towards the end of his life, and they meet at a therapist’s office. It explores how two people at such opposite ends of life and living different lessons can learn from each other, and then from there, infect each other’s lives and impact people in each of their lives as well.

Dealing With Panic Attacks And Social Anxiety

Speaking of, I’m guessing you were in high school yourself. I would love to ask you a little bit about that. I work with young adults all day long. The premise of the show is to bring the conversation of mental health and wellness to the masses, get people talking more about it, and normalize that conversation so that people aren’t afraid to talk about topics.

I wanted to ask about your journey through high school, when you think about mental health and wellness around you with your peers, the aspects of mental health and wellness, and how it played out around you in your world in high school. I’m wondering. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Absolutely. First, I’d like to say that at the time when I was in high school, experiencing mental health for the first time, and I was conscious of it, I felt very alone. Upon reflection, I think about peers that I had who were probably going through the same thing. I’m glad that you have this show because a lot of people will probably open up more. Hopefully, grades of peers will open up more to each other, and hopefully, students going through what I went through won’t feel as alone.

Thank you.

It’s so important. I became conscious of mental health at a young age in fifth grade, secondhand through one of my best friends’ experiences, which I’m not going to dive into out of her privacy. I’ve never thought that it would affect me because she was going through depression and some suicidal tendencies. Towards the end of middle school and especially freshman year of high school, that’s when anxiety started to get me.

I will never forget the first memory of me having a panic attack. I’m sure a lot of people reading this might be able to relate. It all started because I didn’t know who I was going to sit next to on a bus on a field trip. That, for a high school teenager, is a nightmare. I remember sitting there having very cyclical thoughts about that. All of a sudden, my heart started racing. I felt like I was going to die, and I didn’t know what to do.I was texting my mom about it, and she didn’t know what to do either. Both had me googling up lavender fields and soothing images to try and do whatever we could.

From there, I realized that I had that scenario more often than I thought I did and that I had something a little bit deeper that I needed to look into and take care of. I had a hard time with social anxiety to the point where I self-isolated a lot. I would have symptoms such as the heart racing. I had a lot of skin flushing in my knuckles, my rosacea, and my cheeks. I would stutter a lot. I would get a lot of brain fog.

I would try to talk to somebody that I was a little bit intimidated by, and not know what to say at all, and then you go home, and you’re so hard on yourself. It wasn’t until I went to traditional and art therapy, and it wasn’t until I separated after COVID and did some online school that I had a lot of time to get to know myself. I understood my triggers and started to see that it didn’t matter who you sat next to on the bus. You grow up a little bit.

Good for you. I have so many questions. I appreciate you taking us through that. Probably my biggest takeaway from what you said is that so many people I’ve worked with have gone through something very similar. Even the buzz phrase, social anxiety, I feel like, whether it’s COVID or whether it’s growing up in this day and age with phones and everything else, social anxiety has become pervasive. It’s everywhere.

Many kids struggle. I was glad to hear you say you reached out to your mom because so many kids struggle alone. They don’t reach out to a parent. I was thrilled to hear you say that you had that individual as a support for you. Social anxiety is an interesting thing. There’s a development that happens from freshman year through senior year in high school of how you’re supposed to be.

Identity. Your peers have a large impact on that. You want your peers to like you. At the same time, you’re trying to learn about yourself. It’s a very hard time. I empathize with anybody going through that.

Impact Of Your Peers On Mental Health

Tell me more about that. I like what you said. Your peers have an impact on that. What do you mean by that?

I feel like, as a teenager or as a kid, we learn a lot through observational learning and mirroring. A lot of times, we don’t see our full identity at home, if that makes sense. That’s a part of who we are. We then go out into the world, and we want to find those other things that we connect with. A lot of times, we see that in our peers. If you like something that your peers do, and if you see somebody that you want to be friends with, you reach out to them or mirror them.

For somebody with social anxiety, if you reach out to this person and it doesn’t exactly go the way you want to go, it turns into, “We’re not going to be friends.” Instead, it turns into, “What’s wrong with me? I did something wrong. They don’t like me.” That’s not correct, but that is the physical response that you have. As I’m much older, I’m able to take a step away.

I was explaining this to my mom in acting terms. When we go on sets, we have takes. We shoot 1 take of 1 scene. If it goes poorly, it’s okay because you have a whole other take. As an adult, I’m thinking about social situations the same way. If I go to a coffee shop and I leave, and my friend felt a little bit more distant or didn’t laugh at the jokes that I make, and I didn’t feel like we connected as much as I wanted to, instead of leaving and immediately thinking the socially anxious thought of, “I did something wrong. This person doesn’t like me,” I try to let it go and be like, “Maybe that wasn’t my favorite take, but we’ll get them next time.”

That’s right. That is a good way of looking at it.

Usually, it does happen. You never know what’s going on in somebody else’s life, and it’s usually never about you.

You never know what is going on in somebody else’s life, and it is usually never about you. Share on X

That’s a good way of looking at it and a great piece of advice for young people to know. A lot of young people, when they head into high school, have that sense of self that’s negative. Immediately, when something doesn’t go well, they blame themselves. As you get older, hopefully, and certainly, in your case, it has happened, you turn positive toward it. It’s like, “Instead of blaming myself, I recognize, eighteen different things could have happened to this person before they saw me.”

The Negative Impact Of Social Media

That’s a good way of looking at the younger high school person and then the older high school individual in terms of social anxiety. Anxiety and depression, I feel like, are everywhere you turn. I don’t know what life was like with some of your peers that you were around in high school, but I feel like most kids that I work with, when I ask them what some of their friendships are like, kids are struggling with a lot of stuff. Do you see that? You recognize that?

Absolutely. I recognize that. I’ve also seen it start young, too, as far as 8 and 10-year-olds I know who are already going to therapy and having anxiety. It’s sad to see. A large part of that could be due to social media and online presence. You were talking about it in your episode with Sue, Dealing With Societal Pressures. The fact that you’re reachable all the time has a major impact on me. To see that start out so young, especially with school and friends, my heart breaks for kids and makes me grateful for the time I did have before phones. It became this large entity.

That’s a great point. I was thinking about that. I was talking about it with a patient of mine. They are about my age. We were reminiscing about playing on the playground when we were in elementary school, going out to recess, and how much fun that was. I bet you that if we drove by an elementary school, we’d see kids playing with their phones. I don’t know if kids are allowed to use them during recess or not, but it’s sad that kids have their heads down and they’re typing away.

You’re right. It’s happening at a young age. It’s important for parents to know that, too, as we’re talking. Some parents will read an episode like this and think, “How can I help my kid?” Lots of parents will try to restrict the use of these, so they’ll say, “We’ll give it to you a little bit at a time,” but these things are pretty powerful. Lids are going to find lots of ways to entertain themselves on it. Unfortunately, it takes away from this.

I have this theory, and I feel like I’m right. I tell everybody about it.

Let’s hear it.

I feel like the things that we are drawn to that we can’t help ourselves from doing as a kid are the things that we’re meant to do as an adult for our career, if we are so fortunate enough to chase our dreams. My brother and I are both examples of that. For me, it was me with my dolls or playing imagination with my friends. I didn’t just dress up my dolls. Instead, I would direct scenes with them. I would act with them. If I didn’t like this scene, I would take it back to one and I would reshoot it the next day.

With my brother, he would sit. He had this thinking sword, and he would play with it. Now, he’s this incredible mathematician. I think about that because if we aren’t allowing our brains to be bored at that young age, or if we need to do something to feed that boredom and we’re reaching for our phones, we’re not allowing ourselves to discover those dreams and pursue that passion later in life. Instead, we’re already being affected by dwindling attention spans.

That’s a great theory. I love that, and I love that you used the word passion because that’s what it is. It’s our passion. I, too, have a story similar to where, from a pretty young age, I enjoyed helping my friends with their issues and their problems way before I became a licensed therapist. It fit hand-in-glove for me. When I figured out this profession, I’m like, “I get paid for this? This is unbelievable.” I agree with you.

I use that all the time with my patients. Discovering someone’s passion, which is different from yours and mine, and everyone has their own passion, becomes one of the ways that you seek happiness as an adult, if you’re able to discover that. It all goes together. The ability to be bored and the ability to be able to dream, play, and do those things when you’re younger gives you that concept. So I love that theory. We have to name that, like Olivia’s Theory.

Please do. You proved me right with your personal connection.

I talk about this a lot in my show. It’s no secret that the anxiety levels of young people, unfortunately, are at an all-time high. Unfortunately, the depressive symptoms and disorders are also at an all-time high. Suicidality is the second leading cause of death in young people. That has moved in all the wrong directions. Several years ago, it was number twelve. It has gained in strength. It’s unfortunate.

That’s one of the topics no one wants to talk about, but it is out there. We hear about it all the time, whether it’s public figures in the news or whether it’s private family, friends, or friends of friends. I hear about it way too often. I often ask my guests. We point to things like social media, phones, and other things as reasons why. I want to ask you. What do you think? What comes to mind when you think about why mental health is in the place that it’s in?

If I were to point my finger, I would point it at social media, to be honest. That’s when I saw it affect me and my peers the most. My generation is the Guinea pig generation for social media and how it affects young minds. I would also suggest that we are more open about talking about it than other generations used to be.

If we need to feed our boredom by reaching for our phones, we are not allowing ourselves to discover our dreams and pursue our passions later in life. We are just dwindling our attention spans. Share on X

I know my parents and I, and we’ll probably touch on this later, had a hard time connecting over this matter because it had been drilled into their minds not to talk about it. Maybe these things were already present, but we’re more open about them. We post about it on social media, so more people are more aware. I know that there are some people who believe this awareness may not be good because sometimes, if you suppress it, then we can keep moving on. I would disagree with that.

How Adults Should Discuss About Mental Health

I would, too. I’m glad you brought it up, though. It’s important. The premise of the show is to bring this conversation forward and to help not only young people, but adults as well. Parents who are in their 40s and 50s, like myself, grew up in a generation where it was somewhat taboo to talk about these topics, so we’re going to parent in that same way. How do we talk to our kids about depression, anxiety, eating disorders, bipolar disorder, and all that stuff if we can’t even talk about it amongst ourselves? You brought out an excellent topic. In some ways, I feel like kids teach parents when it comes to topics like this, right?

Absolutely. My parents and I have talked about that a lot. To plug my short film, that is who I created it for originally. It was not just patients with anxiety that are going through the same thing as me, but especially for systems. My mom and my dad are two of my best friends in the entire world. I saw how much they were struggling with the fact that they couldn’t understand. I saw how much it rocked their world. I felt like the only way words could help was by using adjectives, which never quite got to how I was feeling. To tell you the origin story of my film.

Please.

After many disconnects with my mom, and it was pushing us apart, I went to my therapist’s office and I told her, “I can’t connect with my mom. We’re having a hard time.” She said, “Are you looking at it from a descriptive point of view? What if we looked at anxiety as what it looks like to you, not how you can describe it with words?”

For some reason, something that clicked with me was this metaphor of a white room with four white walls where I wake up in it when I’m in a panic attack or a moment of high anxiety. I don’t know where I am, but I receive a note that tells me to look for a door, and there are no doors in this one. As I’m looking around, I keep receiving more notes telling me to go faster and that the clock is ticking, which does not help with the panic. The physical symptoms set in. I feel like I’m suffocating, and I pass out. The only thing that can get me out is focusing on breath, and then I leave exhausted. I never know when I’m going to re-enter that room.

I connected with that as a metaphor for my anxiety, so I drew a picture of that with my therapist. When I got home that day, I wrote that story out in short story form in my journal, and I had my mom read it. That was the first time in all the years that I’d been going through this paralyzing anxiety that I saw my mom understand, and she vocalized that.

That moment with my mom meant so much to me, and later my acting coach as well, who I wanted to understand me a little bit more. I wanted to turn it into a film so that it could be accessible to other people, so they could then share this with their support systems as well, and hopefully have that moment of connection. With art, when you’re looking at it or you’re listening to it through music, a lot of times, it can do what words simply cannot.

When you are looking at art or listening to music, it can usually do what words simply cannot. Share on X

I agree. What an awesome description. What a fantastic concept. I’m thinking as you’re talking that I have had so many patients try to explain a panic attack in my office to their parents. It’s almost like they shoot and miss. They try to describe it, and the parent is like, “I don’t understand that.” Your description resonates with me. It resonates because it’s your pain. It’s first-person.

It’s, “I’m looking for a door that’s not there, and there’s all this pressure that’s saying, ‘Come on. Let’s go.’” That feeling that a person has had, and many individuals I’ve worked with over the years have had, is not only hard to describe, but it’s hard to get through. Once it ends, the last thing you want to do is tell someone about it. You’re glad it’s over. Unfortunately, you may be going back to that room at some point. That’s powerful. I appreciate you sharing that. I’m hoping that people tuning in do look it up. It is an opportunity and a tool for parents to understand anxiety at a deeper level, specifically with panic attacks. That’s great.

Thank you. I hope so, too.

Anxiety Could Never Stop Anyone

That’s wonderful. I enjoyed listening to you. For young people, it takes a lot of courage. I always say courage is the opposite of anxiety. It takes a lot of courage to be able to talk about some of these things in a way that you’re helping other people understand you, and therefore putting people in your corner to be able to support you and assist you in the future. I appreciate all of that. It’s admirable that you’ve gotten to that level with not only your therapy but also your parents. For those kids who are in high school and are suffering, and they’re suffering in silence, I’m wondering if you could speak to them for a moment. What would you say?

You made me tear up because I understand. That’s the first thing I would say. Those memories still affect me, but they also make me proud of who I am. I would say to them, “You’re perfect the way you are with that struggle. You don’t have to end that struggle.” I remember when I was that age, whenever anybody asked me what my biggest wish was, it would be, “I hope I never have anxiety again.” That’s not true. I still wake up in that room sometimes. I have anxiety on the reg, but I am out in California living my dream, pursuing one of the scariest careers. I don’t let that anxiety stop me.

Your anxiety is going to be there with you, and that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with you. Whatever your dream is, whether it’s academic, athletic, artistic, or inspirational, you can do it. That anxiety is not going to stop you. You’re already so strong, but the battle that you fight to understand yourself is so special, and it’s only going to make you stronger in adulthood.

Olivia’s Self-Care Regimen

Great message. You’re describing managing it rather than it managing you. I love that message. It’s a message of positivity. It’s a message of understanding. I know people reading will resonate with those words. I appreciate that. Let me shift for a minute and ask. Self-care is a topic that gets talked about a lot. It’s a buzz phrase used in my field. People define it in lots of different ways. I wonder. What does self-care mean to Olivia?

I am into skincare. Taking care of yourself externally that way is fantastic, but to me, self-care is listening to what your body and your brain need. If you’re an extrovert, that means to get away from people for a second and go spend time with yourself. That’s a form of self-care. I’m very much an advocate of exercise. I move as much as I possibly can. Right before this, I wanted to feel more confident and level-headed, so I went for a walk out in the sunshine and got those vitamins and that fresh air.

Self-care is listening to what your body and brain need. Share on X

Moms and dads who are probably reading this are probably going to clip this for their kids. I apologize to the kids for doing this to you. My mom used to tell me all the time whenever I was anxious to get outside. She was like, “Go for a walk,” and I never wanted to. Once I started doing it, I realized that she was right. I’ve used that to this day. Getting outside doing something that regulates your heartbeat is even more self-care than something that’s a little bit more vanity-based. Singing, for example, could be self-care because it regulates your breath, or something like that.

I agree. I love what you said. It’s amazing how many people I’ve asked about self-care, and how many people from all different backgrounds talk about exercise. Exercise is something I’ve always done in my own world. I’ve always believed it. It helps clear your head. I love what you said. You separated into vanity versus other things. Self-care is defined personally. It’s defined by that person.

One thing I heard a long time ago that stuck with me was at a gym. It was a billboard that I was reading as I was getting a drink of water and catching my breath. It said there was a study done. It was a study many years ago. It talked about how exercise for 25 minutes gave people a burst of the positive feel-good chemicals that we get for up to 10 hours. I thought to myself, “Organic, no side effects, nothing.” One thing that you can do for yourself to exercise give you that kind of jolt and burst, which I always found interesting.

That’s incredible.

Self-care is a big deal. I like what you said about getting outside. A lot of young individuals, especially depressed individuals, the last thing they want to do is get up and get out. It’s the first thing they should be thinking about doing. Make it personable. Put your earbuds in, listen to your favorite tunes, and go for a walk wherever you want. It’s important. If you don’t do it for yourself, probably no one else is going to.

Something you said made me think of this, but probably other people with anxiety can relate to it. My anxious thought is that I have an expectation of how things should look. When I was in high school, I would call it very all-or-nothing. I’ve focused on taking care of this, so I’m a little bit different now, but before I did, I was focused on if I did a workout, it would have to be an hour and a half, or it would have to be this huge massive thing. If I went for a walk, it’d have to be a certain number of miles. Honestly, if you feel like you need to get outside but you can’t get out of bed, if you go out and scowl at the sun and you’re mad about it for five minutes, that could work, too. It doesn’t have to be a perfect thing.

I love it.

When people do that, not even young people, but adults do it as well, they go out, start to get in these routines, and set these hour-and-a-half expectations. You look at them and you’re like, “Who told you to do that?” They’re like, “I don’t know. It was me.”

Odds are you don’t have the energy, which is okay, or the time to do that hour and a half. If you look at your calendar and you’re looking at red dots of when you did everything, you’d be way less consistent than if you did fifteen minutes a day, even.

Get up and get out. I like how you said that. It’s words to live by, in many ways. Number one, I appreciate you taking the time and energy out of your schedule to talk to me and my audience. I know you’re busy. They offer an awesome point of view. In many ways, you’re representing young people, so I appreciate your point of view. You’ve had some great ideas. I always hope that when people read this, there are 1 or 2 things they pull out and they can take with them and use. You’ve given us lots to think about, so thank you so much for that.

Thank you for having me on.

Olivia’s Nominee For Next Guest

I appreciate it. I have one more thing to ask. I want to put you on the spot for a minute. Generally speaking, what I try to do is have all of my guests nominate a friend, a coworker, a relative, or someone you know who you think would be great to have as a guest in the future. Any thoughts as to who you’d like to nominate?

This is somebody that I had the privilege of working with in Atlanta, Georgia. That would be Jill Weinstein from the Berman Center. She is a female powerhouse. She runs her partial hospitalization program. She’s spoken for Teen Vogue. She’s done so many things. I would love to know about her on your show. She could give you a great point of view.

Fantastic. I’ll get her contact info from you offline. I appreciate you nominating her. I look forward to having Jill on the show. I appreciate you taking the time and energy to be with us and offer your perspective. I want to thank you again and tell you to have a wonderful rest of your evening.

Thank you so much.

Have a good one. Take care.

Bye, everybody.

Important Links

About Olivia Healey

Olivia Healey first discovered her love of storytelling at the age of 10, when she played Juliette in Madeline’s Christmas at the Horizon Theatre in Atlanta, GA. She pursued theater for six more years, before realizing the depth to which she could take her craft in front of the camera. Since then, she’s appeared in various feature films (Grounded, The Family Plan, etc) and moved to Los Angeles to actively pursue her career in acting.

Not only is Olivia an actor, but she is an avid screenwriter, as well. She has written over 60 scenes for clients in both Los Angeles and Atlanta, and wrote the impactful short film, Breathe. Breathe screened June 2023, and received praise from multiple recognized mental health organizations, such as The Georgia Psychological Association, as well as Anxiety Specialists of Atlanta.

Olivia has worked with the highly regarded Berman Center (featured in Teen Vogue and more), to screen Breathe and inspire their patients to express how their anxiety feels through art. She looks forward to continuing her journey bringing Breathe to more organizations, in hopes of reaching a broader audience.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Rob Thorsen | Shoulder Check Foundation

The Shoulder Check Foundation Story: On Loss, Inspiration, And Making Contact With Rob Thorsen

July 8, 2025May 22, 2025

In a world where genuine connection can feel scarce, understanding the power of empathy and vulnerability becomes essential for mental health and wellness. In this episode, we dive deep into the transformative work of the Shoulder Check Initiative with founder Rob Thorsen, who shares the deeply personal story behind its inception and its mission to encourage authentic human connection. Rob explains how the foundation, inspired by his son Hayden, works to dismantle barriers to vulnerability and promotes checking in on one another as a powerful tool for mental well-being. Discover how their innovative approaches, including a unique emoji and community events, aim to create a world where “making contact” is not just a tagline, but a way of life. Join us as Rob reveals the simple yet profound message that everyone has a hand to give and everyone might need a hand, inspiring listeners to embrace vulnerability and build stronger, more supportive communities.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

The Shoulder Check Foundation Story: On Loss, Inspiration, And Making Contact With Rob Thorsen

Welcome, everybody, to the show. This is the show that talks openly about mental health and wellness. On our show, we’re joined by Rob Thorsen, founder of the Shoulder Check Foundation. Welcome, Rob. How are you?

Excellent. Thanks very much for having me. I appreciate it.

Kicking Off The Conversation: Rob Thorsen & The Heart Of Shoulder Check

Thanks for being here, Rob. I would love to start things off if you could maybe tell us a little bit about the Shoulder Check Foundation that you run.

For sure. It’s just the reason that puts us together here. I give you the context for what we’re up to. Our program is called The Shoulder Check. We’re more formally the HT40 Foundation, where we started, and we’re on a mission to help young men and women make contact with one another. It’s pretty straightforward. The best way to say what we’re trying to do is you never know who might need a hand, but we all have a hand to give. Our thought was that the more people we can get checking in on one another, the more likely we are to catch someone who needs some support and give them the space and permission to say they need it.

What a great way of saying all of that. That’s fantastic. I’ve definitely looked into, on my end, a little bit about your foundation. I’m so impressed with what you guys do and all of what you just said. I agree 100% with absolutely everything you just mentioned. Tell us a little bit about how it came together.

Unfortunately, a lot of things sometimes take their inspiration in moments of tragedy, and that thing. My son Hayden Thorsen he’s the HT40 and the HT40 Foundation. His number was 40. He was a hockey player. He died by suicide in May of 2022. When he passed, of course, the world turned upside down, and you don’t know which way to go.

As we were navigating that, there were a lot of conversations that were happening at the time, whether it was parents related to us or kids asked us directly, they said, “Who’s going to do it?” Hades did for us now that he’s gone. It just took not very long to realize that what he did was put his hand on people’s shoulders. That’s what he did. He was a hands-on shoulder guy. I happened to be walking down the stairs in my hallway, just like everybody else.

You got all the pictures from babies all the way up to the current moment in time. As I scanned them one day, I looked across them. Since Hayden was three years old, there wasn’t a photograph where he didn’t have people around him within his arms. That’s literally what he did. He put his hands on people’s shoulders.

That became the point of inspiration for what we’re doing here, which is nothing more than I like to think Hades would have been doing himself if he were with us, which is just look after people, put hands on shoulders. What was so striking about that for so many people was like, “There’s a big guy.” He was an athlete, he was all that stuff. He was sixteen-year-old, 6 foot 3, 200-pound guy. He had a presence that most people didn’t have.

You would notice him, but you remembered him because even though he was the big guy in the room, he was the one who was just aware of where other people were. That made an impression on a lot of people, and obviously on me and in my life. He is then, in turn, the inspiration for what we’re doing here. He was the check-in guy, and we’re trying to help spread that and teach other people how to check in.

First of all, so sorry for your loss. Really, a tragedy. He sounded like an absolutely amazing human being who, in so many ways, as I talked to parents, Rob, reminds me of that adage of like kids teach parents so much. He sounds like he was an inspiration. I heard you say on an interview once that you guys are working at bringing vulnerability and connection closer together, which I think is awesome. I think it’s such a great way of saying.

Selling Kindness: How Shoulder Check Is Shifting Mental Health Awareness

Thank you. I appreciate that. That’s what we started by saying, like there are a lot of great organizations in the world working to help bring mental health and wellness to the fore, and helping in moments of crisis. By career, I’m not a practitioner. I obviously couldn’t identify a moment of crisis when it was right beside me. I’m an advertising guy. My background is in marketing and advertising. I used to run an ad agency.

That’s the path that led to how we got to this idea, and why it’s built the way it is, and what we’re trying to do with it. Another thing that happened around the same time, we were going through the first few months of this, I happened to be working with an organization in my professional life, a national organization that is about health and wellness, empowerment, so on and so forth. I was having a conversation, just looking for what should I do.

The person I was talking to said to me, it sounds harsh, but it took me a second to turn a harsh statement into a positive thing. She’s like, “You need to leave this to the professionals.” I was like, “What does that mean?” I reflected on it, and it was like, “You’re right. I am not a mental health practitioner. That’s not my profession. I’m a marketer, I’m an advertiser, a brand builder.” We just pivoted, and we thought like, “What if we could build a program or a brand that was based on selling kindness and empathy,” for lack of saying it.

There are a lot of organizations out there, and you know the language, it’s starting to come into play, breaking down stigmas and all that good stuff. Saying things like “You are not alone,” or “It’s okay to not be okay.” The thing we realized is that a lot of that messaging is still putting the burden on the person who is struggling to raise their hand and break through that and say, “I need help over here.” That’s that vulnerability thing.

Our thought was that if we could enlist everybody into the conversation, get more people checking in, it’ll make it that much easier for the person who is struggling to hopefully say or to answer that question honestly. How many times in my life, if you’re just saying about “How you’re doing today” like 99 out of 100 times again, “I’m good, man.” There have been a lot of times where I’ve not been good over the last few years, and very seldomly would I ever actually share that. Even that was a personal experience with it, just creating space.

Now I find in doing this like that’s what the Shoulder Check is there to do is get everybody involved to help give permission to be vulnerable. Every time I go somewhere and have a conversation, now I’m amazed by the conversations I find myself, whether it be like between you and I, between me and adults, peers that I’ve known my whole life, or even more powerfully with the young men and women that we’re building this program for. It’s been pretty incredible.

It’s amazing, Rob, and you’re touching lives. I think you’re being vulnerable. I’ve always said, know, “Vulnerability breeds vulnerability.” When you put that out there. I have to clarify, too. I am a practitioner, and I’m the first one to say. The amount of people out there that are suffering is up here. The amount of us was down here. Not enough of us. Guess what? Maybe people disagree with me on this. I don’t really care, but we’ve got to band together.

There are things you can offer. I cannot. There are things I can offer. You cannot. I think together, we’re stronger. What you’ve tapped into here, and I’m so glad you have, is that notion that’s being overlooked. Especially men, how many men, when they’re approached, how are you doing, just give that canned response. When the harsh reality is that if you look at the statistics, most people are dealing with stuff.

That tracks back to that it was in 2021 or spring of 2022, then the surgeon general published that study said, “We’re dealing with this crisis of loneliness and isolation.” That’s where we anchored our idea. I think about it in terms of being like pre-intervention or upstream from intervention, trying to catch a few more folks before they slip through the next level. I know it’s been more in your professional parlance than in mine, but like this notion of like paths of despair.

That’s their first step. There’s the sympathy of starting to feel alone or depressed or suffering from anxiety that then manifests itself in different paths. Anything you force in is going to come out one way or another, whether you want it to or not. That could be behavioral. It could be an addiction. It could be all those types of things. God forbid, suicidal ideation, thoughts, so on and so forth. Our thought was if we could just maybe try and lend a hand, for lack of a better way of saying it.

Anything you force in is going to come out one way or another, whether you want it to or not. Share on X

A little bit further upstream and hopefully just maybe clock a few spots where people could use a hand. Of course, the job to do there is to bring in a professional or to get a parent, a teacher, or to get somebody on the phone, all those kinds of things, because we’re not qualified to solve the problems. If we could identify a few of them before they get worse, I think that would be a positive contribution.

Reaching Out Before It’s Too Late: Making Contact & Building Connections

Life-saving, huge. I think you said it well, Rob. For so many of those kids, they’re alone and they’re alone with some monstrous ideas that are way above their pay grade. My feeling is that you said it best when we first started talking, any individual is able to lend a hand. I’ll tell you, when you reach out and you have somebody look back at you and go, “Nobody’s ever asked me that, or I really appreciate talking.” Anything like that. It feels good to help. Many individuals out there all they need is an ear. Someone to listen to them.

Just get that conversation started. Our mission, we would give ourselves as the HT40 Foundation, that of course gave rise to the Shoulder Check, is to create as many ways as we can come up with and put them out into the world to help people make contact. We say, “Reach out, check in, make contact” is our tagline. Making contact is like the most important language we have in what we’re up to.

If we give that as our mission or our brief to ourselves and a very fortunate in all the people that have come out and helped build the Shoulder Check so far, whether it’s my son’s world of hockey, which we’ve got support all the way up to the NHL there to my and my wife’s professional network where we have our previous organizations, ad agencies who’ve been giving themselves to this pro bono for years now. Everybody is just pitching in to create ways to help people make contact.

It’s awesome. Can I ask, because I’m interpreting that phrase, make contact, and I’m thinking in my head, in some ways, both for adults and for kids. I know you mean literally touching base, but I guess I’m wondering, tell us a little bit more about where that space is, make contact. Tell me what you mean.

When this idea first started, I literally had made some notes in a notebook and a little tiny bad sketch because I couldn’t draw anything.

Me too.

There are just two people sitting side by side. One person had a hand on the other person’s shoulder. On one side, it said, “I need a hand.” The other side said, “I have a hand to give.” That idea, that we are both always in both of those roles. We are capable of extending a hand, but also always in need to whatever extent. This idea of a hand on a shoulder, I think, is really powerful and universal. Insofar as a hand on a shoulder can be everything from like, congratulatory, and celebratory, without having to say a word, to encouraging and motivating.

We are capable of extending a hand, but also always in need to whatever extent. Share on X

Pat it back like, “You got this” without having to say a word, to also in a moment of consolation, without having to say a word, meaning I’m here for you. Much can be conveyed in such a simple way without ever having to search for the words, but saying everything that needs to be said in that simple moment. I mean that literally, but also figuratively, of course. Social media, it’s of course a hot topic, and there are so many things that are wrong with it.

There are so many negative, detrimental impacts and effects, but at the same time, surely there’s a way to build a positive community in that space. We can use it to do that. Maybe they’ve built platforms with bad algorithms that take you down rabbit holes that you shouldn’t be going down. Let’s not do that. Let’s find a way to make it turn in a positive way and build a community that way.

Last year, we launched an emoji that we created, which was the make contact emoji, which was just a hand with a little blue heart that would let you start conversations that you could read and see it. It means like, “You’re thinking about me in a more meaningful way,” than a thumbs up or, let’s give that meaning and let’s use that as a way to start conversations.

We’re working on new things now with our creative partners, where we hope to launch new things again this year. We have our flagship, which is coming up. Our flagship event is called the Shoulder Check Showcase. It’s in Stanford, Connecticut. We have about 2,000 people come out, and we have 30 NHLers and PWHLers who come out. We play this charity hockey game, but this whole thing came together originally.

This will be our third year now. The first year, we invited 2500 people in, and it was an experiment. Before the main game started, our host, or MC, was Dave Maloney’s former Raider Great came out and we created this moment where we asked all 2500 people to put their hand on the shoulder of the person next to them and do like a call and repeat. I promise to reach out.

I saw the video. This was great, powerful.

It was. It was a bit of an experiment, but it was a learning for me. We all experienced it in real time together because no one knew that that was going to happen. It changed the mood in the building. Incredible. Even people walking out, they were like, “What?” It was palpable. I think it just proved to just the power of genuinely connecting with someone. Mostly strangers talking to strangers. I cannot tap your shoulders. It was a cool moment.

That’s what we try and replicate in everything we do. As I said, both figuratively and literally. As the check spreads and we’ve touched, I don’t know. I was just making a list because you’re always updating your stuff and you’re emails and website and whatnot. I’ve got a hundred entries now of different programs and organizations. Every one of those programs is touching between a hundred or a thousand people. A lot of people are putting a lot of hands on shoulders.

A lot of shoulders, Rob. That’s great. That’s amazing. Let me just, let me just ask before I skip over it, how can people get involved? You mentioned you’re big.

Our website is just ShoulderCheck.org. We’ve got a section in there. It says, “I want to bring the Shoulder Check to my community, to my team, to my organization, to my school.” Everything that we’ve done is archived there. You can see what everyone’s done in the past. That website is just meant to be a place for inspiration. You can see how other people are using it. There are some downloadables and instructions.

You could bring it to, like I said, whether it’s a team, whether it’s a town, whatever. I say this a lot, like the Shoulder Check, it’s an interesting place to operate. My one point of reference for what I hope the Shoulder Check can be, aim high. It’s my number one. Everybody knows the month of October, the world turns pink and Susan G. Komen raises hundreds of millions of dollars annually for cancer research and health issues.

The other guys from November who took the lead there and said, “Let’s do that for men’s health initiatives in November with the mustache and the color purple,” or whatever that is. Our thought was like, “What if we could turn the world’s blue aqua color of ours in September and let that stand not necessarily for raising money for kindness, but raising awareness for one another.” The Shoulder Check should be the thing where it’s an ingredient, and you can use it however you see fit. Like, “I could bring that to my band. I could bring that to my part-time job.

I could bring that home and talk about it at dinner.” It can go anywhere anyone wants to take it. I talk about it a lot. A story has a beginning, middle, and an end, and an idea has a beginning in that it evolves. This is an idea. It’s not a story. It’s to evolve based on whoever gets involved in it. It’ll go where people are compelled to take it. It’s our job to help support that, not tell people what to do, but rather, hopefully inspire them to see ways they can use this in their own way.

Beyond Words: Emojis, Vulnerability, And Teens Talking It Out

What a great concept. What an amazing concept. I want to go back to one thing you mentioned, Rob, that I think I want to highlight just for a moment for my readers. You talked about creating an emoji. I had the thought when you said that, I’m like, “Many teenagers are worried about their friends.” Yet they’ll come into my office and they’ll tell me about it. I’ll say to them, “Have you told anybody?” “No, you’re the first one I’ve told.” There’s that awkwardness.

There’s that notion of like, “We’re two teens and I’m worried about Rob. Do I say anything to Rob? I don’t want to upset Rob. I just don’t say anything.” Yet an emoji is such a great way to communicate care and concern. I just want to highlight that for my readers that teens clearly communicate differently than we do. You guys have figured this out. In many ways, it doesn’t matter how you communicate. As long as you’re communicating, as long as you’re letting that person know, “I’m here and I’m concerned about you.”

I came to this line of thinking for myself and for what we’re doing here. There’s that duality that exists. You can think your way into a new way of acting, or you can act your way into a new way of thinking. Sometimes I just find myself here doing this, or people asking questions, or like, “Could you come speak to XYZ?” It’s not my goal to be any speaker or to be in front of this, but I do understand that there are times when I have to maybe help people take the first step. That’s cool.

You can think your way into a new way of acting, or you can act your way into a new way of thinking. Share on X

I’m there for that. I had the chance to go speak to a high school about two weeks ago or so. There are about 1200 kids there, which is great. I’m thinking to myself, “What an opportunity to inspire people with this idea.” It also had me thinking, of course, like, “This is a slightly different room than we’ve brought this message.” We’ve done it all over the place, with large groups and small groups and that stuff.

This was the first time it was in this type of high school setting. I got to thinking a bit about like, “What’s different here?” I think the point you were just making is like anything else, communicating in this way or being able to broach this topic, it takes practice, and you have to learn how to do it again. I was thinking, “Now this is a, a learning environment. Let’s practice this. Let’s learn how to do this.”

They had this cool thing going on where I just had 1200 kids turn to one another. I was like, “Repeat after me, but don’t say it to me, say to the person next to you. I could use a hand, like say the words out loud, like practice it, build this skill, and the strength. Just like we study for a history test or we go to a sports team practice or band practice or whatever, like we have to learn these skills.” Of course, for a lot of us, the ability to express oneself is innate.

Just go back to the three-year-old on the ground in the supermarket who wanted the Fruity Pebbles and could not have them. Nothing is holding that kid back from it, just all coming out. Obviously, that’s what we lose over time when we become more self-aware. We worry about what other people think. That’s where this notion of being guarded, not allowing the vulnerability, and that stuff. I was just thinking like, “We just got to relearn those skills. We’ve got to practice them.”

We have a lot of stuff in our toolkit now. We have these little cards that we bring with us everywhere. “Did I check in my loved ones?” This was something we did with PWHL sirens, but now we do this virtually everywhere we go. It’s just another way for people to practice, like saying these things and using these words or getting comfortable stepping into those moments, like you’re saying, like, “Are you okay?”

Like, “I have a hand to give.” Give people different ways, tools, and access points to relearn the skill. That was a bit of a breakthrough moment for us because this idea of like having to relearn something that we intuitively understand, but lose time. Even now, for us, more self-actualized adults, like you, come through that, and you become a little bit more comfortable with who you are and expressing yourself. Even there, it doesn’t always come back easily for everybody.

As you said, it is a skill. It’s something you build up. As a therapist, I’m practicing every day talking to people. I have to periodically remind myself, “Everybody is in a different space when it comes to this type of stuff.” Probably one of the best compliments I’ve heard and it meant a lot was when I first started this show, I got an email from a mom and she was thanking me that we had done a show and she expressed in the email that she was able to talk about the topic of mental health with her fifteen year old because they listened to it in the car on the way to practice one day.

I thought, “How cool is that?” We’re normalizing the conversation. We’re helping people understand the importance of instead of avoiding the subject, let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about it in a comfortable way. Maybe talking about it means reading this blog. Maybe it means practicing some skills so that they can give a presentation that you did. To me, it can be nothing because life keeps moving, and kids are dealing with a lot of stuff nowadays. They’re just dealing with a lot.

That’s what I think, too. I see it each time we have the opportunity to go and talk to people or share the message. It’s the kids that are carrying our idea forward. Of course, there are a lot of great supportive adults and coaches, and administrators along the way, but equally like I’ve had people in those roles say, “No, we’re not going to do this.” It’s been a kid, not to me. It’s been a kid who’s brought it forward to a coach or an organization, and they’ll know, “No, we’re not going to do that. No, we’ll have to take that to our board next year.” I think to myself, “Wow.” I’m sure that’s not just as it relates to Shoulder Check, but kids who are like stepping forward and saying like, “Here’s this positive contribution I want to make, and there are people stopping them from doing it.”

Imagine that.

I cannot get my head around it. That’s why every time, 99 out of 100 times, I default to wanting to speak to the young men and women who I know will spark to this idea and carry it forward. That’s how what we’re doing will grow, but it’s not meant to be our idea. As a matter of fact, not only was this idea, as I mentioned, inspired by my son, but in the aftermath, we had 40, 50 kids at a time over our house, and we worked on this idea together. I went to I’m in Darien, Connecticut. We have a place called the Depot, which is a place for like community. We’ve been there together and working on ideas and incredible moments that we’ve had, where we’ve just built this idea together pretty powerfully.

Reflections Vs. Regrets: Learning From Loss & Lifting Each Other Up

That’s awesome, Rob. That’s amazing. Rob, can I ask a tough question around this topic? I’m imagining my listeners might be thinking to themselves, unfortunately, you guys have been through a tragedy, and through that has come this amazing, as you said, idea. That has just touched so many. Parents might be wondering when these things do happen or when a child is starting to slide. Whether it be, let’s say, a type of depression or a mild type of anxiety, what are some things that they can look for? What are some things that they can be aware of in their world? Probably most importantly, are there some things they can do?

As you say, that is a tough question. Of course, I can only answer that. I say this all the time from my own personal experience. I don’t know better than anyone else. What is the right answer to that question? Look, if 50,000 people, young men, women, walk a path that leads to that final decision, they’ve walked 50,000 different paths. In my instance, if you made a list of 50,000 people, I think Hayden probably would have been 50,001 on that list, which is its own specific instance.

I suppose it’s also, there are commonalities or archetypes of these types of things. Certainly, vastly better than I. There is that person who struggles in silence and from outward appearances appears to have it all in control, but ultimately is dealing with something that they cannot find the space to articulate, or it’s weighing them down in some way. That was our path with it, just as blindsided as any human beings could possibly be. I’m still left searching for those very answers.

What would we have looked for or done differently? Was there something that we didn’t see? Was something that seemed totally normal at the time, not normal? Again, for us personally, there is no resolution to that question. That might not be the answer that anyone would want to hear, but it is the truth of our experience. I guess, to reflect on that, I think it just means that the thing I would say is that there, you could just never assume.

When things first happen, people send you things, and you get cards, or people find things on social media, which is even them finding ways to reach out. They’re looking for ways to make contact and support, but don’t have the words themselves. Someone at some point sent me this, like a little, maybe it’s an Instagram tile or whatever, said, “Check on all your friends, even your happy friends.” At the moment, it made me really angry.

I was like, “We cannot even trust that people are happy.” I’ve reflected on that enormously. We just cannot assume. I know certainly as will happen. I’m now part of this. I live in a world with this. This is incredible. A lot of people seek support groups, and they go to things like that. I have five personal friends in my life that I’ve known that are having the same experience they were having lost a child, that I’ve just known in my life. We were not brought together by this happening. We were already in each other’s lives. We have this support group amongst ourselves, and each of them has walked their own unique path with it.

Some folks had children who were more overtly struggling. They were on a path towards treatment, and some folks had children who were maybe on paths to addiction and those kinds of things. Every individual that have their own experience with it and my personal experience falls into the, you can never assume camp. Here’s the thing, I know as much about what to look out for as anybody else would have read an article that told them to look out for those kinds of things, or would be counseled by a professional as a parent. My learning and my experience are just, you can. There are some things that you will simply never be allowed to know.

I appreciate you sharing that. I think it really speaks to, I remember watching a documentary years ago called The Mask You Wear or something like that, Mask You Live In or something like that. It was really about males. It was really about how often we probably, as you were mentioning, like toddlerhood, we grow into this sense of not telling people how we’re doing. It’s one of the reasons why I, as a therapist, and even personally, push people to share more, not less.

If it makes a person uncomfortable to say, “How are you? Are you okay? Everything all right?” If it makes them uncomfortable, I’d rather they be uncomfortable than not cared for. That’s my attitude toward it because I feel like we’ve strayed so much the other way that we’re just going to pretend and ignore, and not pay attention to. Sometimes things happen, and you have regrets about not just having the confidence to just say, “Is everything all right?”

That’s a piece of my presentation, or talk track, or whatever you want to say, because when I try and share, like, “Here’s how you would do the Shoulder Check and draw this distinction between a reflection and a regret.” There are times where we’re just not going to get it right. Knowing that we tried means we get to reflect on that and we get to learn from it. Whereas the other side of that coin is maybe not having tried or not having done the right thing.

That’s the path to regret. Regret is heavy, man. Regret is something that’s hard to put down, because I think that’s part of what Shoulder Check is about. Again, I’m probably borrowing. In the marketing and advertising sense, we would talk about behavior change. It’s usually meant to buy a different product as opposed to we’re real behavior change, but ultimately, even if you want to just say Shoulder Check is you, if you need to put it in a box, you could call it like an awareness campaign. It’s ultimately meant to just the smallest bit, change behavior or perception or an idea to get to exactly what you’re saying to make it okay to answer that question or to ask that question.

I had the experience personally when we were going through the worst of it. A friend of mine had reached out via text, and he’s like, “I’m just checking in. Hope you’re doing okay.” You receive lots of those every single day. At this one moment, I needed to put something down, and I gave him back a text. I saw the three dots come up. Three dots come up, go away. Never got a reply. There’s no way this gentleman expected the level I put back on him. I like respect.

He gave me permission to just air some stuff. It was great. It was more than he knew was coming at him. I’m sure what am I supposed to do with that? He didn’t have to do anything. Even there. In the moment of an incredibly acute moment where we were having trouble having that dialogue, but I’m sure it’d be your experience as well. I’m on the other side of that divide, so to speak, now. I live in a different place with respect to my emotionality, my willingness, or my ability to express it.

If only because had I not found a way to do it for myself, like I was saying before, I’m sure you know, like anything you push down is coming back out somehow. This is not the thing that you can suppress what was our instinct in the immediate aftermath. Embrace is not a great word because it sounds positive, but you know what I mean? You just have to do what this is and accept what this is. It’s not easy to do, but I think that’s part of what the Shoulder Check is to us.

Of course, a bit of therapy for us. It’s figuring out your hand to see positive outcomes, or to just like you’re saying, occasionally receive some anecdotal feedback that says, “This gave me permission to speak to my child, or this gave me permission to reach out to a teammate.” That’s the hand back on our shoulder, knowing that that’s some contribution.

The Ripple Effect: How Kindness Touches More Lives Than We Know

It’s amazing, Rob. I have to say, through our discussion and just hearing about Shoulder Check, I, too, hope that perhaps it is September one day. Look, as you said, maybe it isn’t about funding, maybe it’s about awareness, because here’s something that I put out a lot, and I want parents to hear this. Sometimes I’ll hear from parents, whether it be a post that someone responds to, or someone will say in my office, “Why all the attention? Why all the attention to mental health? Why are we even talking about it?”

I thought about that a lot one day, and the difference between our generation and theirs. One of the ways I draw that line is I say, “If you have friends that are 40s, 50s, and 60s, you ask them. If you’re at a gathering one day, ask them. When you were in high school, did you ever know anybody or hear about anybody that took their own life?” More often than not, they’re going to say no. You ask a kid that nowadays, not only will they say yes, but they have a list. That’s how much it’s changed.

I guess both, as it relates to obviously an upswing in total numbers, but then even more so, the ability to talk about it now. My parallel on that one is I think back to the same deal, same generation, when we were younger, and I had a cousin who had cancer. That wasn’t something you talked about as much. Certainly had an amazing family around him.

I’m not suggesting that he suffered in silence by any stretch, but we were not standing up to cancer. We were not championing people who have fought, won, or lost that battle. Now we do. We honor them for what they’re going through, for the heroism that is facing down something like that. That’s where we’re at with that conversation. That’s exactly the parallel for where we’re at with this conversation.

It’s been there all along, but now we’re recognizing it, and we are honoring the people that are struggling, and we need to champion them as well. We need to make them feel comfortable, supported, and all those things. I’m sure ten years hence, our show, The Check, started in the world of hockey. It’s all my son’s network. He was a good hockey player. Hockey as a community is a great community that comes out and supports one another. The NHL has a program called Hockey Talks. It started with one franchise out on the West Coast, and now, like twenty of the NHL franchises participate in it.

It’s about exactly that, breaking the silence around the stigma. We’ve participated in them with a lot of the NHL franchises, the Capitals, the Rangers, the Bruins, so on and so forth. We’re just working up bit by bit. People saying like, “Hold on a second, there is strength in being able to talk about this.” That’s the right way to say it. The strength to talk about it is far greater than the strength to talk about it without saying something. We start to honor that champion that bit by bit. The conversation will just be brought more and more to the fore in a positive way.

The strength to talk about it is far greater than the strength to talk about it without saying something. Share on X

No doubt. Whether this or not, I’m going to say it, Rob. The ripple effect Shoulder Check creates, you probably don’t even know how many people you guys are touching and supporting, and helping. I commend you for all you do, all the energy you put forth. I also commend you for taking this tragic situation and flipping it, and putting a scenario out there to help many others, not only today, but also in the future. Thank you for all that you do. Please, those of you that are reading, please look up Shoulder Check, get involved.

Rob’s a wonderful human being, and there are a lot of other people involved, I know. Please do your part and do what you can to support a wonderful organization. Rob, thank you so much for your time, your energy. One last question. I’ll put you on the spot. Normalize it forward. We’re set up so that we want to continue the conversation, and part of continuing to do that is as I ask people to nominate a friend, a coworker, a relative. That’s how we got connected, actually. Would love to put you on the spot and ask anybody in your world or your network, you think would be helpful for me to interview going forward.

Storytelling For Change: Filmmaker Jake Miskin & Shattered Ice

I’m going to point you towards a gentleman by the name of Jake Miskin, who is a filmmaker. They just recently premiered their film called Shattered Ice. The film is about set in a fictitious town, but it’s based on the town that he grew up in, Needham, MA, that about 10 or 15 years ago went through having lost five of their community members.

He made this film to both tell the story of what happened, but also to deliver on the exact same mission that we’re on, which is to show people how to use the arts, to use film as a means to help people talk about these kinds of things. That film just got reviewed a little bit ago, and it’s off to a really good start. He’s a thoughtful guy who he Shoulder Check is doing stuff partnering with. He would have a cool, different perspective on using, we’re anchored in sports, he’s anchored in sports and arts and film, all trying to just bring the message out.

Love it. I’ll get his info from you offline, but I cannot wait to connect with him. Sounds like he’ll offer a great perspective for my readers. The more we get to talk about this, the better. Keep doing what you’re doing. I appreciate and support you.

I got to say thank you to you for what you’re doing here, and giving us the space and the platform to be able to share our message with you and with your audiences is an incredible opportunity for us. I’m grateful for it. Thank you, bud.

I appreciate it. Thank you, Rob. Thank you. Have a wonderful rest of your day. We’ll talk soon.

Right on.

See you.

Important Links

About Rob Thorsen

Rob Thorsen is the founder and executive director of The #HT40 Foundation and the creator of the Shoulder Check initiative. Following the tragic loss of his 16-year-old son, Hayden, to suicide in May 2022, Rob channeled his grief into a mission to combat loneliness and isolation among young people. Hayden, remembered as a compassionate individual who wore jersey number 40 as a goalie at Darien High School, inspired the foundation’s name and its commitment to fostering kindness and connection.

The Shoulder Check initiative encourages simple, meaningful acts of support—such as placing a hand on someone’s shoulder—to let them know they are not alone. This movement aims to inspire a culture of peer-to-peer engagement and social connectedness.

Rob’s professional background in marketing and advertising has been instrumental in promoting the foundation’s message. Under his leadership, the Shoulder Check Showcase, an annual charity hockey game, has grown significantly, attracting NHL players and expanding its reach to raise awareness for mental health.

Through these efforts, Rob Thorsen continues to honor his son’s legacy by advocating for mental health awareness and encouraging communities to support one another through simple, compassionate actions.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Brandon Saho | Vulnerability

Being Comfortable With Vulnerability With Brandon Saho

June 24, 2025April 17, 2025

There is so much stigma about mental health that most people refuse to talk about it. Brandon Saho uses his platform The Mental Game to invite people to embrace vulnerability and be comfortable with the uncomfortable. In this conversation with Marc Lehman, he shares how he hosts emotional interviews with athletes and celebrities to raise awareness about the seriousness of depression, anxiety, and trauma. Looking back on his own battle with suicidal thoughts, Brandon also emphasizes the importance of undergoing therapy and seeking support from people you trust.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Being Comfortable With Vulnerability With Brandon Saho

We are here to talk openly about mental health and wellness. I am super excited to welcome Brandon Saho. Brandon, how are you?

I’m good. Thank you so much.

Brandon is a sports reporter who had battled depression and suicidal thoughts for years before finally asking for help. In 2022, after beginning therapy and checking into a hospital, he found a new purpose in life to help others. Saho quit his TV job and launched The Mental Game, where he hosts emotional interviews with athletes and celebrities. Guests include actor Terry Crews, former NFL star Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson, rapper Kevin Gates, The Office star Kate Flannery, and many more. Saho’s mission is to save lives with impactful conversations about depression, anxiety, and mental health. Welcome. How are you?

I’m good. I’m feeling good. I’m feeling open. Thank you for creating a platform, having this conversation, and for everything you do as a therapist to help young people who need to know this stuff the most because we weren’t taught it in school. The more we talk, the more we can help each other, so thank you.

Brandon Saho And The Mental Game

Thank you for being here. I’m looking at your picture of The Mental Game. I want to hear more about that because, to me, it’s such an awesome pivot that you’ve made. Through our episode and through our discussion, there’s this ripple that takes effect and hits a lot of different people in such a positive way. Tell us about The Mental Game.

It’s never something that I set out to do. I never had a plan in my life to leave the sports reporter job. That was my dream job that I had, but like a lot of people, I was struggling on the inside and no one knew. I had battled suicidal thoughts off and on from the freshman year of high school all the way up until a couple of years ago. I finally got to this rock bottom moment where I had to ask for help.

I had lost three family members in three months. The woman that I thought I was going to marry and I were going through a tough breakup. I had all this pressure on me at work. I was suicidal every second of every day for months. Finally, I had to start going to therapy, check myself into a hospital, and take care of or try to learn tools to help my mental health for the first time ever in my life.

The Mental Game idea was born in therapy, which is beautiful. We’re on TV like the athletes, except paid 0.0001% of what they make. We’re on contracts and deals. My contract was coming up, and my therapist asked whether I wanted to stay at NBC in Cincinnati and what I wanted to do. I said, “What if we combine mental health and journalism?” That was the idea for The Mental Game.

I started with a Bengals player, Sam Hubbard, whom I’ve been pretty good friends with. He was my test dummy, if you will. It has grown to where we have over 60 episodes. I live in Los Angeles and get to interview with some of the biggest stars in the world. I never thought this is what I’d be doing, but I do feel like it’s my true purpose.

We don’t pay any guests. There’s nothing fake about it. If they want to tell their story, they come on, and we’re able to share that story across the country and across the world. For me, that has been the most powerful thing. It is knowing that we might be able to help somebody out there that’s struggling like I was in silence for fifteen years. If they see their favorite athlete, movie star, singer, or actress talk about it, they’d be like, “They go to therapy. Maybe I can, too.” It has been beautiful to see something that I struggle with privately turn into my purpose.

It is so amazing. I have so many questions for you. I have to say initially that as a therapist, so much of what I do is private, HIPAA, and all of that stuff that I can’t clearly talk about any specifics of any patients that I see, but your platform and my platform are an opportunity for people to talk at their pace and to talk about their issues if they choose to.

I love what you said, to talk about it in a way that you’re giving a message to other people. It’s okay to talk about it, especially as men. I find that part fascinating because that’s starting to change in a nice way. I’m noticing it more certainly with people in the public eye, many more athletes and many more people in the entertainment industry who are men are talking about the issues that they’re experiencing, which is truly amazing.

It’s so crazy. I’m sure you’ve seen it more than me, being a therapist. The stigma of changing with men is why I was so afraid to talk about it. I’ll never forget. I know that every mental health treatment facility can be different in the way that it’s set up. The one that I went to in Cincinnati was about 10% one-on-one psychiatry and therapy with a psychiatrist, and then 90% of it was in a classroom setting of 20 to 25 people of every race, background, age, color, and Cree. We had this one thing in common, that we didn’t want to live anymore, and we needed help.

I’ll never forget that after two days of not opening up, the therapist who was teaching one of these sessions said, “Brandon, why aren’t you opening up?” I said, “I’ve always been a wimp my whole life.” She stopped me right there and said, “That’s the problem with mental health, specifically men’s mental health. You think it’s a weakness to be vulnerable, but it’s a strength.” That’s what changed my life, hearing that from her. That’s when I started opening up, discovering more, and learning that it’s okay to show those emotions. I then realized how many more people were open about it that I didn’t know.

Men’s mental health is not a weakness to be vulnerable but a source of strength. Share on X

When I went back to work, some of the Bengals players and Coach Taylor asked me questions and made sure that I was okay. Joe Mixon is a guy who stands out. He and I have always had a close relationship since I started working with the team. After we got done doing interviews, he put his arm around me, and then we walked out of the stadium into the parking lot. We were talking about how I was doing and what happened.

We did an event at LSU. I had Kevin Faulk there, who was their all-time leading rusher at LSU, one of the all-time greats in the SEC. He told this crowd of thousands of people at the arena, “If Brandon had asked me to do this five years ago, I never would’ve done it.” I’m sure you can attest to it, too. The stigma is changing, especially with men. It’s something that we’ve needed for a long time. It’s so encouraging to see.

Battle With Depression And Suicidal Thoughts

If I could go back for a second, you made a comment when you were talking about your story and your journey about being suicidal every day, every hour. I want to stop and talk about that for a moment. I don’t think people who haven’t experienced that understand that that’s like having a 100-pound backpack on your back throughout the day. The worst part is it’s a secret. Nobody knows.

I don’t even recognize that person or that version of me, but I was like that off and on for fifteen years. Every second, every day for this 3 to 4-month period when I was at my rock bottom, it felt like the weight of the world was on me. I was in this autopilot phase where I would go to work from 2:00 to midnight, and then go out and drink. I was an alcoholic.

I would then take those slow walks home every night, drunk, sad, depressed, crying, and suicidal, and then rinse and repeat every single day. It’s tough to describe that feeling because I can’t even feel that again. It puts you in this spot where you don’t want to live anymore. It’s very scary to be in it. You can’t control those thoughts. Looking back, it’s like, “I can’t believe I felt like that and didn’t tell anybody for so long.”

It speaks to the concept when you hear people say, “You don’t know what other people are going through.” A lot of people, especially young adults, are good at hiding it. If I’m your buddy and I say to you, “Brandon, how are you doing?” The first answer is like, “I’m fine.” That’s not an answer because you’re far from fine. It’s this mask that you wear. It’s like, “I don’t feel comfortable talking about it, so I’m certainly not going to talk about it with you. I’ll say I’m fine and then maybe you’ll go away.”

I know you probably tell your patients and the people around them whenever you have a conversation with them that if someone’s not being themselves, that’s one of the biggest signs that they’re going through something. Thank God I saw that in myself. I was always a heavy drinker, but I noticed that it was way worse. I wasn’t enjoying what I normally do. I wasn’t going to the gym. I hated my job when it was exactly what I wanted my entire life. People saw glimpses of it, but I hid it well.

That’s what I would encourage people reading that might be struggling themselves, or might not know it, or see people around them. If they’re not being themselves, something might be or probably is wrong. It’s okay to ask them, “Brandon, why aren’t you cracking jokes like you normally do? Why don’t you want to go to the Bengals game like you always do?” Pointing that stuff out isn’t confrontational. It’s helpful, at least in my experience.

From one young adult to another young adult, it’s to be able to say, “Is everything okay? Something seems off. I know you. You’re my buddy. You’re not smiling anymore. You don’t seem as happy.” It takes some real courage to do that. With several people that you’ve known over the years, those are the individuals who care enough to ask the question. In my opinion, you’re not going to get too many people who get upset if you check in with them. They’re going to get the message that you care.

If people truly love and care about you, they will help you no matter what. They might not understand what you’re going through or they might not know how to help you, but if they truly love and care about you, they will. I have probably one of the biggest examples of that that young men fear. At 28 years old, I called my dad and he told me to be a man, figure it out, and rub dirt on it. It was stuff we’ve been told our whole lives.

I always share that story because within an hour, he realized that that was the wrong answer. He had never learned about mental health. He was an alcoholic and never addressed any of the stuff from losing his father at a young age or his alcoholism. About an hour later, he called me back and was like, “How can I help? What can we do?” That’s why if people truly love and care about you, they will help you.

My dad and I have conversations that we’ve never had before. I always end the phone calls with, “I love you,” to him, my mom, when I see my best friends, and when I see my neighbors. When you’ve gone through stuff like that, it changes your perspective. You’re so much more grateful for the people around you who are trying to help you.

Your perspective changes when you are more grateful for the people who are trying to help you. Share on X

They’re saving your life. When a person is that depressed, a nice comment or a negative comment makes a difference. Gaining a little bit of support and even checking in by text, like, “I’m here for you. Are you all good? What’s cooking? How have you been? Any of that is helpful for a person to receive. I love what you said. I hear about it way too often with parents. There is that mentality certainly from dads to sons, like, “Rub some dirt on it. It’ll be okay.” In my career, at least, I’m seeing and hearing that starting to change. You’re hearing more and more of the parent who didn’t grow up with conversation around mental health trying to understand it, which, to me, is remarkable. That’s pretty awesome.

Parents didn’t learn it. I’m 31 and I never heard about it in school from anyone. I remember the DARE program about drugs and alcohol. I remember the sex talk. I remember everything but being told about your mental health. If you don’t have your mental health, you have nothing. This is the most important, in my opinion, when it comes to your health.

I’m sure you experienced this with some of your younger patients. It’s encouraging to see how this new generation is talking about it. Probably from my age to 25 is maybe where we started to see the progress. Gen Z is leading the way. You can talk all the crap about them being on their phones too much, TikTok, and Snapchat, but they’re the first ones to tell you how they’re feeling or to offer help to somebody else, which is something that we can all learn from.

More Than Just An Athlete

On one hand, the statistics for that group are awful. The anxiety levels and the depression levels are as high as they’ve ever been. On the other hand, whether that’s propelling them or other things, they are way more open. I’m always impressed to hear peer-to-peer kids talking to each other about that stuff, which is awesome. The Mental Game makes me think of the concept behind how mental health plays into not just life, but athletic life. You’ve seen so much of that. I’m curious. If you were talking directly to a young athlete who’s been experiencing mental health issues, whether it be depression, anxiety, etc., and hasn’t done anything about it, what advice do you have to offer?

Everyone struggles. It doesn’t matter if you’re playing in the Super Bowl or you’re in your rec team at high school, or you’re playing on the AAU Basketball Circuit. Every person struggles. The thing that I hear from every athlete is that. Also, the sport isn’t you. It doesn’t define you. It’s what you do. It’s not who you are. It is knowing that your entire identity isn’t wrapped around what happens on Friday night or if you guys win the state championship, or if you get a scholarship to play in college. It’s a big part of your life, but that is not your life. You are more than just that athlete.

The sport does not define you. It is a big part of your life but it is not your life. You are more than just an athlete. Share on X

That’s the advice that I always try to give. Also, for anyone, the sooner you start having this conversation, whether it’s with your coach, your mom, someone you love, your best friend, or your teammate, the sooner you can help yourself and help each other. Offering that vulnerability and starting that conversation sooner rather than later saves so many lives because there are people like me, my dad, and millions that don’t talk about it until it’s almost too late. I would always suggest starting that conversation as soon as you’re feeling something. Don’t be scared of it. It’s okay. We all go through it.

It’s great advice. The V word, Vulnerability, is a tough one, but it’s super good advice. I heard you say, and it’s spot on, to find an adult that you can trust. There may be several. There are people out there that some young athletes won’t go to. Perhaps you have a coach that you know is not going to understand and maybe even limit your playing time if you go to them. That’s maybe not the person to go to. Find someone you can. It could be a teacher, a therapist, a neighbor, an aunt, or an uncle. It could be anybody in your world. Your point is a great one. Be vulnerable enough to say, “I need some help. I need to talk about something. I don’t even know what the heck’s going on, but I need to tell somebody.”

Something I always try to suggest is if you do have that coach that might not understand or the parent that you’re worried about telling, having that teammate, wingman, or whatever you want to call it, who can be that middle person that says, “Brandon hasn’t been himself. You don’t see this, but he is crying every night when he goes to bed. He is upset at school. You should listen.” Having that person maybe be that middleman to help get that point across can sometimes help. That person who’s not understanding finally goes, “I do need to listen.”

A Man’s Experience With Therapy

That’s a great point. Going back a bit, I’m curious. For a male in this world, the concept of coming into counseling is hard. A lot of people walk into my office, and they’re like, “I can talk to this guy. He’s a guy.” I use that sometimes with patients because I certainly understand that we process differently than women do. I’m curious as to what that was like for you when you got the courage and you’re sitting in this open room and you decided, “I got to open up.” Talk to us a little bit about what that was like for you as a male.

I’d never gone to therapy until 2020. I started going to therapy when everyone felt alone. Many people started going to therapy during the pandemic, but I wasn’t 100% open with my therapist about everything. I said that I had suicidal thoughts. I lied about maybe how recent they were or how bad they were. It finally got to two years later where I was at that rock bottom and I had no other choice. I wasn’t going to be alive if I didn’t ask for help.

I don’t want to get into the specifics of means, methods, and things that I struggle with myself, but I got to the point where I wrote a goodbye letter to my ex or my girlfriend at the time and my mom while stone-cold sober at 10:00 AM in the morning. That is when it went to me like, “This is the moment. I have to get help because I don’t know what else to do.”

That was pretty tough and traumatizing, from telling my employer to filing for disability to seeing what the hospital bill is going to cost and being there for two weeks. It was a very traumatizing experience, but I dove headfirst because I didn’t know there was no other option for me. It’s like anything in life. Once you see it work, then it helps you even if it’s small baby steps. You go to the gym and start to see, “I lost five pounds this month.” It’s the same thing for me when it came to seeing that therapy worked or starting my sobriety journey. Once you see the stuff work, pay off, and help you, it does help you flip that switch of, “This is good for me. I am better because of this.”

It’s not going to happen overnight. You’re not fixed in two weeks or fixed right away when you start therapy, but you learn these tools that we’ve started to talk about that you never heard of before. Once I got comfortable opening up, it did change the game for me. I do that where my whole life story is on the internet besides my ex’s name. It was weird at first, but I see how it can help people, whether it’s DMs that I get or people that come up to me at games or events.

I drove an Uber to try to make ends meet when I quit my job and when I started this. I’ll never forget this kid. He was half in the bag after being out for a night. It’s 1:00 AM and I’m driving him home. Out of nowhere, he starts reciting my goodbye letter that I posted. I was like, “I don’t even remember typing all of this.” On his phone, he was like, “That helped me six months ago when you posted that.” I was like, “That is crazy to hear.”

That’s powerful.

You don’t always see that. Sometimes, you can’t reach everybody. You do hear about things where people did take their own lives, or maybe they did resort to self-harm. That breaks your heart, but you try the best that you can to help anyone. Vulnerability, the big V word or whatever you want to call it, is the biggest thing that can help people because it makes you feel like you’re not alone.

That’s huge. That story about that young man was powerful. I’m so thankful that you tolerated that space, journey, and vulnerability because, one, it’s great to connect with you, but your effect and the ripple of what you’re doing is clearly touching a lot of individuals. When a person’s in that head space, they’re not thinking about the chapters that haven’t been read. They’re thinking about the chapter they’re in, and maybe this is the end.

I had a patient of mine years ago who worked with me for a while in his twenties. He was 27 or 28. He shared with me that he couldn’t believe that he had made it to 27 or 28, because at 21, he thought his life was done and that it was going to end. It’s that concept of like, “I need to now reconfigure. I’ve got all this world in front of me and all this space in front of me,” which is truly amazing. To your credit, I think about progress. When you lose some weight in the gym, that’s great, but this type of progress opens up your world and other people’s.

The thing that I always try to share are the two things that gave me that light and kept me going, and the biggest things that have helped me. Number one, do something when you’re feeling a certain way. When you’re sad, depressed, or suicidal, you have to be vulnerable and talk to somebody or reach out for help. Number two is what you’re getting at with that 27 or 28-year-old. At 21, I thought the same thing. I thought, “This is the end of the world. It’s never going to change.” Feelings are temporary. They don’t last forever. It’s a chapter in your life. It is not your life. It took me so long to get to that realization.

The feelings-are-temporary thing helps me with big-picture stuff. When it came to when I was suicidal, the daily stuff of like, “I got a cold right now. My studio flooded last night. I can be mad for ten minutes, but let’s do this interview. I’ll get back on some other meetings, and then I’m going to try to go for a hike.” You’ve got to have those thoughts that enforce that it’s not the end of the world.

Brandon’s Nominee For Next Guest

It’s a great point. Part of this show is that I ask my guests if they could think of a friend, a coworker, or a relative to nominate to keep the conversation moving. I would love to get your thoughts on that. Does anyone come to mind?

I had a lot come to mind. The one that hit home for me is Dayton Basketball Coach, Anthony Grant. He lost his daughter, Jayda, to suicide a few years ago. He’s the head coach at Dayton. She had been in therapy. There were warning signs. They were in the process of helping her as much as they could at that moment. I knew who he was, but I didn’t have any connection to him at all. He had reached out to me a few years ago, asking for any type of guidance to help his wife, Chris, who is amazing too, and wanting to connect.

They started Jay’s Light to honor her. Every year at Dayton, they host a mental health event town hall inside the arena, and then a charity basketball game where all the proceeds go to different mental health foundations in Ohio. A couple of years ago, they played Ohio State. In 2024, they played Xavier. It is strictly all about mental health. They play the exhibition basketball game, but every single time out, they show clips from The Mental Game on the screen. I was a part of the TV broadcast. They also have the individual players of both teams talking about how it’s impacted them.

For me, Coach Grant and his wife, Chris, are people that I would like to nominate because they are helping people. They’ve been through it themselves. Like a lot of us who have experienced that loss or been at that rock bottom, you find a way to help others because you don’t want anyone else to go through that. They truly are helping keep that conversation alive and keeping people alive.

Many people who have experienced loss or have been at rock bottom look for ways to help others so they will not go through what they went through. Share on X

Episode Wrap-up And Closing Words

That’s fantastic. What a wonderful organization they formed through a tragic event. I appreciate you putting that out there, nominating them. I look forward to connecting with them. I appreciate your time. I know you’re busy. I appreciate your honesty and genuineness. It takes a lot of courage for people to get up here and talk about themselves, but I know you’re doing it for a reason. I know you make that connection in your head of, “If one person reads this and they get some assistance, it’s all worth it.” Thank you. From my point of view, I appreciate you doing all of this.

Thank you for the same thing. I get the chance to host conversations and speak at colleges, high schools, and events. I might be able to help people connect the dots, but amazing mental health professionals, therapists, psychiatrists, and practitioners are the ones who are truly saving lives. I look at you guys as one collective group that is on this mission together. Without people like you, I wouldn’t be here having this conversation, so I couldn’t echo that more towards you. Thank you as well.

I appreciate it. It takes a village, that’s for sure. You got to a friend in me. We will stay connected and remain supportive of each other and our mission. Continue doing what you’re doing. I believe a lot in what you’re doing and everything that is behind The Mental Game. Good luck with everything in the future.

Thank you. Maybe we’ll see you next time.

I would love to do that. Thanks again. Have yourself a great day.

Thanks. You, too.

Important Links

About Brandon Saho

Sports reporter Brandon Saho battled depression and suicidal thoughts for years before finally asking for help in 2022. After beginning therapy and checking in to a hospital, he found a new purpose in life to help others.

Saho quit his TV job and launched The Mental Game where he hosts emotional interviews with athletes and celebrities. Guests include actor Terry Crews, former NFL star Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson, rapper Kevin Gates, The Office star Kate Flannery and many more.

Saho’s mission is to save lives with impactful conversations about depression, anxiety and mental health.

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Damian Gregory | Underserved Youth

Providing Support To Underserved Youth With Damian Gregory

June 10, 2025April 17, 2025

In today’s highly digital and fast-paced world, kids have to deal with a ton of unnecessary distractions and pressure. Former NFL player Damian Gregory has been providing support to the underserved youth through his non-profit organization Gridiron G.A.N.G., helping them navigate the chaotic society and achieve profound success. In this conversation with Marc Lehman, he talks about his mission to guide the youth on overcoming the adversities of life, the pressures of social media, and the challenges of becoming an athlete. He also emphasizes the importance of taking care of your mental health, cultivating a resilient mindset, and finding stability in uncomfortable situations.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Providing Support To Underserved Youth With Damian Gregory

I’m super excited to welcome Damian Gregory. Damian, welcome to the show. How are you?

I’m pretty good. Glad to be on here.

Thanks for being here. I appreciate it. Damian is a former NFL defensive tackle who played for a variety of teams, including the Dolphins, the Bears and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. After retiring from professional football, he became a motivational speaker and advocate for mental health awareness. Drawing from his personal experiences, Damian emphasized the importance of resilience, mental well-being, and personal growth.

He’s been featured in various platform sharing his insights and overcoming adversity and the significance of mental health in achieving success. In 2019, Damion founded Gridiron G.A.N.G. or Giving Adolescents New Goals, a non-profit organization and advocating Athletics as a mechanism to inspire achievement in all aspects of life for the underserved youth.

The goal for each participant is to lay the pathway to success by instilling the mindset of accomplishment in spite of adversity. Over the past thirteen years, the Gridiron G.A.N.G. a successfully administered volunteer football camps and lectures with the support of community advocate partners. Welcome to the show. Damian, how are you?

I’m great. I’m excited dive into the conversation.

Damian Gregory And The Gridiron G.A.N.G.

Maybe that’s a great place for us to start. Tell us some more about the Gridiron G.A.N.G..

It’s an organization that I started in my last few years in the NFL and was able to implement programming after I got done. It was something to try to give back to my community. I grew up in Lansing, Michigan. My mom is 1 of 12. My grandma was instrumental in my upbringing and so is my grandfather. He did a lot of community service work. He worked at the plant, but he also was a janitor/program director at the local Lets. I believe it’s a community center in my hometown

Therefore, the different programs that my family put me in, they would put me in different programs at the Kingsley Center in Lansing, Michigan at the Black Family and Child Institute, which was called the BCFI. I went to YMCA, the Boys and Girls Club. I was a program baby. Seeing the effect that those programs and those leaders had on me at early age, made me want to give it forward. I started to get on Gridiron G.A.N.G., which is giving out adolescent goals.

We just started off with going to visit in small hospitals at first and seeing kids that were in need. We saw that there was a greater need for some sports training as well, so we added some sports element to that, where that’s how we were able to bring the kids in to be able to talk about leadership qualities, stabilization of mental health, dealing with your situation and how to better yourself in bad situations.

It’s fantastic. I feel like you’ve combined several areas of your childhood as well as recognizing that you have a platform as an athlete to be able to give back to the community and have kids recognize and respect your professional situation and understanding. That’s admirable, Damian, for you to do that with young kids and to give kids that message of how important they are and where youth sports could anchor kids. I’m curious, what role would you say sports play for you?

Starting off, the things that worked for me were just being stable and trying to find a happy place in a chaotic situation. Football is a chaotic situation being things are moving at you rapidly, especially the defensive tackle position which I played. I got Lyman here. I got running back, so I got where I receive. Things are just very chaotic during that. Trying to find peace within my own situation was how I was able to find out what I would be good at after getting done with football to be able to apply that and help other kids.

Trying to find a way to help them through the chaos. They’re dealing with moms and dads both working, or sometimes not working or being disabled. I know kids that have parents with cerebral palsy and they’re not just going to school. They’re taking care of their families. They’re trying to earn a living. We’re trying to give them a place of comfort in the chaotic situation.

Wellness In An Athlete’s World

Well said. It’s such a need. I’m curious, too. You were an athlete for many years and imagine you went through all the levels and saw lots of different things, some positive, and some negative. I’m curious for you when you think back, how would you categorize your define wellness within an athlete’s world?

Again, just trying to find that stable situation in the chaotic situation. As an athlete, things are coming at you so much, especially as early athlete. In high school, there’s the females, the grades, and your parents being able to be a part of your situation, either in a supportive role or they can’t be because there are working. Trying to find what small things that you can concentrate on to get you through the day.

I was always told by a coach early on, “You never get better. You don’t stay the same. You’re going to get worse or you’re going to get better every day. You never going to stay the same. You have to figure out a way to just notching those days and over and over trying to find a way to keep it going. Keep taking those strong steps.” The wellness part of it is mental.

You will get better every day. You will never stay the same. You have to figure out a way to keep taking strong steps. Share on X

As you know, just because of the social media aspect of the kids these days, we didn’t have that we were coming up and that’s a blessing because the pressure that social media puts on these kids on a daily basis is astounding. I can see it every day with my own children, with kids that I’ve coached, and kids that I mentored. They feel like they’re in a rush. They have to do this. They have to get here. They have to get to these points, and every kid’s story is different. Everybody’s situation is its own situation.

Letting them know that you don’t have to compete with time Tom, Bob or Samantha and Christy. You have to compete with yourself first and understand who you are, what you’re able to bring to the table and your strengths, your weaknesses, what you can work on to make your weaknesses, your strengths and try to move yourself ahead. That’s the wellness part. A lot of kids these days aren’t concentrating on what they can do to better than themselves from within.

That’s a great point. Many has changed in the last 15 to 20 years. Certainly, social media and NIL. The money that comes through now is just equated to a ton of pressure. I see and hear kids in 8th, 9th or 10th grade and they’re getting mandated with coaches and inquiries. In 8th grade, I was learning how my shoes. These kids are making life decisions. It’s stressful. I like what you said, though. Figuring out a way, whether it’s within your sport like a workout or some other way to feel stable or to feel comfortable within yourself.

I have some kids that rely on journaling or meditation. I have certainly kids that work out and enjoy exercise. I have other kids that join a club or an activity and that gives them some sanity. Certainly, athletes now more than ever need something to rely on to create less stress and anxiety. It’s a tough world. It’s a tough world for young adults. You make a great point about social media.

Unfortunately, anxiety and depressive levels are up. They’re higher than they’ve ever been. It does put some pressure on young adults to find ways to make themselves feel less stressed and less overdone each day. I like what you said, though, how do you do that and get through the day. It’s a good way of looking at it. Are there certain views over time that seems to help you and assist you with wellness?

Things that I’ve done over the years, I’ve tried the meditation. I’ve tried to digging and sleeping the 9 to 10 hours and say, “Sleep about 10 hours is bad.” I’m not asleep like that. Overall, reading is something that has always been something that helps me stabilize and get back into a place of comfort. I try to tell kids, “The flipping of the screens on social media and the quick viewing of TV gives us a short attention span. It makes you Jump from different levels of emotions.”

Flipping screens on social media leads to a shorter attention span. It makes you jump from different levels of emotions. Share on X

You might be there for five minutes and you’ve seen something from politics all the way to sexual type stuff. You have to find, as I said something that works for you and cut off some of those extra-curricular activities like the phones, the social media, and the TVs. Get back and find a way to read. It doesn’t even have to be a book. It can be read a poem or a comic book or concentrated on a lesson that you have already in school that you just double back on. Something to just stabilize yourself.

Also, music as well. I like to play some music. A lot of different kinds of music to just assume the mind. I’m R&B guy. I like listening to some old Jazz and some R&B. It brings me down a level. You can’t just be bopping to Jeezy and 50 Cent all day. You have to find a way to decompress and be able to use those different tools that are available to us on a daily basis to calm us down and be a little bit more mentally focused.

I like how you said that. I’m up in Connecticut. It’s husky country. When they won the championship in 2024, it was interesting. One of their players who since graduated mentioned early on in the year that he doesn’t have any social media. Being a 23-year-old young man with no social media. Every time this kid was interviewed, they him asked him about it. No one could believe it that he had no social media. I thought it was great. He had focused, understood, and the impact.

For young people reading, your words are important. You’ve achieved professional status at your career. You know a thing or two when it comes to athletics. One of the reasons why I love having various people on my show is that, everybody’s got an opinion. It’s important to embrace everybody’s viewpoint because if people are reading and they take a nugget or two here and there, that’s the point. That’s the whole point of normalizing photos.

Open Dialogue With Your Kids

I appreciate you putting that out there, Damian. I’m curious, you are also a dad. Another hat that you wear. You have three kids, I believe. They’re just coming into the teenage world now. As a dad, as kids are growing up, we start to think about what was life like for us when we were their age and because of some of the things we talked about. It’s changed dramatically. I’m wondering, what are some of your observations in terms of your own kids? What are you noticing? What are some of the things that kids are facing nowadays that seem difficult?

A lot of things that are kids are feeling these days are things that we felt as well but just on a magnify level. They’re competing with each other in sports. Not just in sports but in school. There’s competing in a different kind of way because as I said with the social media stuff. It becomes a different competition. I have young daughters as well. I have a daughter that’s ten and some of her friends have started to get skin care stuff, so then they’re sharing their skin care stuff. It’s not harmful stuff. It’s not stuff that they’re doing where it’s a bad thing, but it can become something else. Unless you let her know what she needs to be doing with that or how she needs to be obtaining it.

She’s like, “I want to go to Sephora, dad. I want to go here.” I’m like, “There are certain items I would allow you to have and that are good for your age group but there’s some things that I don’t agree with and this is why I don’t.” You explain to them why you don’t want them wearing these certain things or going in these certain areas at this age because it’s a lot of pitfalls out for young ladies that are dressing a certain way or seen a little older when they’re not just because of the skin care stuff that they’re choosing.

That has been an obstacle being that I never faced before that I had to try to align with the proper judgment with me and my wife. My son as well going off to high school. He’s a younger kid for his age. He’s a little younger than mostly kids in his grade and he plays football as well. I didn’t have the pressure of my dad playing in the NFL or being coached by guys that played with my dad. It becomes a different hurdle for him. He’s like, “I feel like guys are always on me.” It’s probably they are always on you because I go half way with the couple of those guys there. They know what I would be expecting from you and they would be expecting from you as well.

Being able to limit their expectations and their exposure but not limited in a capping way. Only in a defining way. Defining what these different feelings that they’re having maybe the anxiety of being coached by someone that I know or the anxiety of, “Dad. I want to get this product for my face.” Those are totally different things but, at the end, they all come back to the same home and the same message, which is, let’s try to find the good in these products. Let’s try to find the good in this situation.

What can we do to concentrate on being better at understanding why this is not a good product for me or why I shouldn’t be going to lift weights right after I left wrestling practice?” I’m like, “Son, you can’t be in a rush.” As you know, there’s no speed limit in life. There’s a speed limit on the road but not in life. Once you get cooking, it can go like that. Trying to make sure they’re stable and they have a good base.

You hit on a number of things. One important word, understand. As parents, we wear a hat. We wear a lot of hats, but one of the hats we wear is teaching. I always say to parents like when your kid is fifteen, a lot of times your oldest when they turn fifteen is like, “I got this down.” They turned sixteen and you’re like, “Now I got to figure out sixteen,” then your daughter’s.

It’s different when they’re fifteen. In many cases, parenting is on the job learning. Guess who’s our best teachers? Those kids. They teach us and they teach us well, but we got to work together. You strike me as someone who’s got a open dialogue with not only your kids, but maybe also the kids from Gridiron.

I admire that, Damian, because it’s interesting. I meet parents of all types and I don’t know how parents encounter the next stressor and parenting and not talk. I don’t know how they do that, but I imagine the kid figures that out or doesn’t themselves and things get challenging as a result. Open dialogue is huge. It sounds like you’re a person who encourages that with kids.

I do, and I still get a lot of open dialogue from former campers, mentees, and guys that I’ve worked with from Naples. I used to have a program a few years there, and still gets a heads up from those kids that are there. Some of them are grown, in college, and in careers. I see them on social media. I always liked their stuff. I’m always sending nice little message just a to let them know coach is still there coaching. Don’t think I’m not watching or I don’t know where you’re not making the right decisions.

That’s why I try to walk the way. I walk on my social media and Pages, just to show it’s okay to be a father. It’s okay to do things outside of the norm. You don’t have to do it like the Joneses and everyone else is doing. You can do what you’re supposed to be doing, which is aligning with God or whoever seeing fit to move forward with your life. Having that open dialogue and somewhere kids are able to come back to.

I get hit from guys that are, as I said, still playing guys, aren’t playing, and guys that gave the game up right after camp. They always knew coach Carrie. I can bounce a couple of teams with him. I can bounce this off of him like, “Coach, what do you think about this school? What do you think about me thinking about this career?” I’d be like, “That’s where you should go. As a matter of fact, check this out, too. This concentrates on that as well.” I’ll send more information because I want to see them successful. Not that it’s any sweat off me but if I have been around, you or if I’ve touched you, I want to see you have a success.

I hear you. Your helper, Damian. You like helping. I’ve coached myself. I certainly have done lots of counseling over the years. I always say to my patients, “Stay in touch. Drop me a card here. Drop me a line. Drop me a message.” Sometimes I hear and sometimes I don’t. Someone said to me a long time ago and it meant a lot. I’ll say it back to you because it’s applicable here. You have no idea just when you say to someone, “You mean a lot. You’re important. Your actions are important.” Those statements from a grown adult to a kid have this ripple effect and oftentimes, create for that young person a positivity that we don’t necessarily get to see.

Get In Touch With Damian

Years later, you may hear from that person. I admire what you’re doing. I do and your positivity, openness, and your ability to communicate with people in general. You connect with them where they’re at. Again, you’re a person in the athletic industry. You’ve touched all the levels. You’re credibility is there, and yet you work with young people. Again, you find out how you can help and you’re there. You got a big heart, Damian. I appreciate what you do. I do. Can I just ask for my readers, how can they find you if they’re in in the southern Florida vicinity?

We’re at @Gridiron_GANG on Instagram and we’re @GridironGangInc on X. I don’t use X as much no more as I used to but you can still get with me. You can also send me an email at Info@GridironGroup.org and I’m always available. We do a lot of stuff at Holiday Park, which is our local park in Fort Lauderdale. We partner with the City of Fort Lauderdale on the couple small projects. We’re working hand in hand with Mount Olive Church in Fort Lauderdale very close with the deacon and Tom over there.

We’re trying to do more in the community. We’ve only been here for a few years, but we did a lot of Jersey and Naples as well. I used to have a camp in Naples with the Bayshore Educational Center, which is an educational center that’s tailored for the Lely area of Naples, which is a highly populated area of people from Haiti that came over. We’ve done a lot of camps for transitioning them into America and things that they would love to do in the states.

You do not have to do what everyone else is doing. You can do what you are supposed to be doing: aligning with God and moving forward with your life according to your plans. Share on X

That’s been a great program we did. We did a lot of stuff with the Calais Foundation, which was in New Jersey, which is a special needs school that is dear to my heart. We’re probably going to be doing a little bit more of that going forward. Not in that Aventura but we got still in the works with some of the stuff for 2025, but we have a 5K walk with an organization called Ellie’s Army, which we’re pushing for. I was close with Ellie. She had cystic fibrosis. She died about 10 years ago. That’s my agent’s daughter.

We were just two of a kind. As soon as we got with each other, we were full of energy and full of balls of joy. She touched my life early on and she helped me get through some obstacles that I had early on and just being able to keep her legacy going. We have a 5K that we do every year. This is about the 17th year of it. It’s at Aventura Library on February 23rd. Anyone that wants to know about it, you can go to DirtySocks.org. You can sign up to be a participant and/or sponsor. It’s a great event. You got former players, coaches and people from the community. Everyone that wants to give back and put on honor on Ellie’s name.

That’s fantastic. I got to connect you with my buddy Dr. Joe. Do you know Joe Oravecz. He’s the CEO of NAMI Broward County in that area. He does a lot of work down there. Him and I have done some work together as well. I got to connect you, but you’re doing some great work down there, Damian. I appreciate and admire all of what you do with your community.

Damian’s Nominee For Next Guest

Let me ask you, part of Normalize it Forward, to continue the conversation around wellness. Talking about not only mental health but from all of the different hats that we wear, whether it’s athlete or parent or individual in the community. Part of what we do with Normalize it Forward is to try to continue to have the conversation. I usually ask, if you have a friend, a co-worker, or a relative, someone who you think would be helpful for me to connect with next. I’ll put you on the spot and ask, any thoughts? Anyone individual that you thought might be good?

A great guy to look at is a guy that I see on a daily basis, Brandon Marshall that played the NFL for a long time. Brandon played for numerous teams. He has a show called I Am Athlete and he also has a facility called House of Athlete. He’s been a champion for mental health and awareness over the years. I just shared something on my social media about a lady that came up to him on the street over the last couple of days and just said, “His openness to talk about his mental health situation helped her of her life and helped her serve to the next steps.”

Him as well as AJ Brown that has just showed a lot of initiative with the reading of the book on the sidelines. A lot of people looked at it as a weird situation, but we all have things that we need to calm us like we talked about earlier, to center us, to bring us back to a place of comfort. If reading on the sidelines was that thing that kept him calm during those tense times, then that’s a great opportunity. Leaning into that same realm of football players, AJ Brown would love it and a former player Brandon Marshall. Both of those guys are leaders in the mental health space, and enlighten a crowd, too.

We all have things that bring us back to a place of comfort. Share on X

That’d be great, Damian. I’ll get their contact info offline for you, but I appreciate the names and would love to connect with those gentlemen. I, too, agree with what you’re saying. It’s interesting when you hear about the stats of mental health and they say 1 and 5 or 2 and 5, but I think it’s 5 and 5. I have a good friend of mine who talks about that as their mission statement, 5 and 5 constantly. It’s like we are all susceptible. We all have good days, bad days, and our struggles. The more we talk about him, the more we’re able to glean information that can be helpful and continue to move forward. One last question for you on the brink of the Super Bowl. Do you have any predictions for us, Damian? What do you think?

It’s kind of tough. I went to the Super Bowl to see the first time they played against each other and I was going for Kansas City. I’m going to state here, I’m going for Philly. I’m a State Farm Barkley fan. We live in Rutherford, New Jersey, before we moved down to Florida. Say Quan was right there in our backyard. He was a great kid. He did a lot in our community of brotherhood at the time and seeing him flourished into the player he’s become.

My son got to go to a couple of his camps and meet him early on in his career and just seeing his impact on the game and being the Ambassador for the game that he is an ambassador for being such a great young. He’s such a well-rounded great young man that you want to see a person like that representing the lead. Having him there on that podium, holding that award as MVP of the Super Bowl would be great. Not just for the game of football, but for the game of life.

You heard it here, Damian’s predicting Philly. I’m with him. I think Philly going to take it as well. I appreciate your sentiments. I’m also a big Say Quan fans, so I would love to see that happen. I appreciate you taking the time to be here. I’m sure my readers do as well. Your thoughts around mental health and wellness are spot on. I agree with so much of what you had to say, but I want to thank you. Thank you for your time and your energy. Enjoy yourself. Have fun.

Thank you, Dr. Marc. Go Eagles.

You take care. See you, Damian.

Important Links

About Damian Gregory

Damian Gregory, a Michigan native, born in Ann Arbor and spent his youth in Lansing, where he attended Sexton High School. He received a football scholarship to attend Indiana University in Bloomington Indiana and graduated in the class of 2000. At Indiana University he was a three-year starter, voted “All-Big Ten”, appeared in 31 games with 22 starts and registered 125 tackles. He spent his last year of his college career with Illinois State University, where he was voted team MVP, 1st Team All-American and served as Team Captain voted by players and staff.

In May of 2000 Damian signed as a free agent with the Miami Dolphins where he played Nose Guard and Tackle. After two years with the Dolphins in 2002, Damian signed with the Cleveland Browns where he played Defensive Tackle and Nose Guard. In 2003 Damian moved to Oakland where he played with the Oakland Raiders as Nose Guard. In 2004 Damian played a year with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers as Defensive Tackle. He also played in the NFL Europe League with the Scottish Claymores in 2004, where he was voted Team MVP, “All Europe First Team” and “Lineman Of The Year”. In 2006 Damian spent his last playing year with the with Michigan’s own Detroit Lions, where he played Nose Guard and Defensive Tackle.

After a six-year career in the NFL, Damian founded Gridiron Marketing Group LLC in April 2005. Gridiron Marketing Group specializes in investment property, foreclosures, short sales, buying and selling commercial and residential property, and remodeling. Gridiron Marketing Group also provides commercial and residential development planning, marketing and funding of housing initiatives, which include rental housing projects affording low-income families with quality affordable housing.

Damian has spent every year since the end of his college career serving as a coach to several youth football camps, and various weekly football clinics in the United States and Scotland, such as the Gridiron Institute Football Camp , the NFL Youth Activities, Fuel Up To Play 60, and a host of others.

In July of 2008 Damian was selected by the NFL Retired Players Association to receive an internship as Defensive Line and Defensive Scout Team Coach with Saginaw Valley State University in Saginaw, Michigan. After 2 Seasons with the SVSU Cardinals Coach Gregory decided to concentrate fully on his Real estate entrepreneurial endeavors primarily in the Lansing, Michigan area. Damian continues to serve as president of Gridiron Marketing Group LLC, as well as coaching with various youth football camps / Teams (Ft lauderdale Falcons) and professional representation Goalline football sport agency training future NFL hopefuls.

In 2009 Damian founded Gridiron G.A.N.G. (Giving Adolescents New Goals) a 501c (3) non-profit organization, advocating athletics as a mechanism to inspire achievement in all aspect of life for underserved youth. The goal for each participant is to lay the pathway to success by instilling the mindset of accomplishment in spite of adversity. Over the past thirteen years Gridiron G.A.N.G. has successfully administered volunteer football camps and lectures with the support of community advocate partners (Y.M.C.A., Gateway Services, Rutgers University, Troop 21, NFLAA, NFLPA, etc.) in Michigan, New Jersey, Florida and New York reaching over 20,000 children.

Damian Gregory currently serves on the executive committee of the NFL Alumni Detroit Chapter, and President emeritus of the Board of Trustees for the Calais Foundation. Damian is married to Mrs. Shayla Gregory and they have three beautiful children Damian “DJ” Gregory 14 years old and Genevieve Gregory 10 years old and Vivienne Gregory 6 years old . The Gregory family resides in Fort Lauderdale Florida But Lansing Michigan will always be home.

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Jen Hartstein | Neurodiversity

Championing Neurodiversity In The Workplace With Dr. Jen Hartstein

May 27, 2025April 7, 2025

Let’s talk about neurodiversity. It’s not just a buzzword; it’s about building a better future for work. Marc Lehman ignites a crucial conversation with Dr. Jen Hartstein, owner of Hartstein Psychological Services and co-founder of Mental Capital. This isn’t your typical HR talk; Dr. Hartstein, an expert in child and adolescent psychology, is revolutionizing how companies embrace this concept. This episode dives deep: How do we move beyond surface-level awareness to truly attract, hire, and retain neurodiverse talent? Dr. Jen Hartstein provides the roadmap, empowering leaders to cultivate workplaces where every mind thrives, and innovation flourishes.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Championing Neurodiversity In The Workplace With Dr. Jen Hartstein

I am joined by Dr. Jennifer Hartstein. Jennifer, welcome.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for being here. Dr. Jennifer Hartstein is the Owner of Hartstein Psychological Services, a group private practice in New York City. Dr. Jen works with children, adolescents, and their families with a wide range of psychological diagnoses and specializes in the treatment of high-risk children and adolescents. Additionally, she’s the Cofounder of Mental Capital, working with companies large and small to attract higher and retain neurodiverse employees and staff while helping to create neuro inclusive work environments. I can’t wait to hear about that.

Dr. Jen frequently speaks with companies about mental health stress reduction and how leaders can create healthy work environments for their employees. She’s on the executive committee and is a Board Member for Active Minds, an amazing organization working on college campuses to decrease the stigma of mental health.

She’s part of a practitioner alliance of Same Here Global, a major mental health organization run by my colleague and friend Eric Kussin. Dr. Jen was a Self-Esteem Ambassador for Dove’s Real Beauty campaign and was on the advisory board for MTV’s A Thin Line, which focused on the digital behavior of today’s young people.

She’s the author of Princess Recovery: A How-to Guide for Raising Strong, Empowered Girls Who Can Create Their Own Happily Ever Afters. She’s a regular contributor to a variety of media outlets, including NBC News Now, NBC’s The Today Show, The Huffington Post and Parents Magazine. Dr. Jen, thank you so much for being here. How’d I do with that?

You did great. I’m like, “That person sounds really impressive.”

Absolutely. I agree. I do think you’re very impressive. Let’s dig in. Let’s talk about this, because you and I do very similar work. There’s some crossover, but clearly, you are doing some stuff that I don’t do and would love to hear about. Can we start with Mental Capital? That intrigued me. Tell us about that.

Dr. Jen Hartstein On Mental Capital & Workplace Inclusion

For sure. Mental Capital is a business that I started with a longtime friend named Peter Shankman, who is very well known in the entrepreneurship space and is a neurodiverse entrepreneur. He has spoken a lot about his ADHD is his superpower and has written some books on it. He has a book called Faster Than Normal and a podcast called Faster Than Normal, which I highly recommend for people who are A DHD or think they might be neurodiverse. They’re great resources. He wrote a great children’s book. We’ve been friends for a very long time.

We were talking and one day we were like, “There seems to be a lack in business space of supporting neurodiverse employees.” He does keynotes about his own experience and here I am, a clinical person and can bring an element into companies saying, “Here’s the clinical side and here’s the lived experience side and this beautiful synergy of how we can help you create neuro inclusive environments.”

Think about it this way. If we think about the fact that I live in Manhattan and every corner has a curb cutout. The curb cutout started as a way to help handicapped people get across sidewalks. It started as a disability focused intervention, but who does it help? It helps parents with strollers, it helps delivery people with carts, it helps groceries, it helps all the things.

What helps one helps the masses. We are trying to really go into businesses and say, “If you can make this change for your neurodiverse staff, it helps all your staff. We also know return of investment. Happier employees make happier businesses, and so on and so forth. That’s really where it started and that’s where we’re getting our traction.

If you look at the research, like when you think about college age and young adults, 53% of Gen Z is identifying as neurodiverse. That doesn’t mean they all carry a specific diagnosis, but it doesn’t matter. They’re going into the workplace identifying as neurodiverse. You have Gen Xers and Boomers still in leadership that don’t know what that means and how to talk to them. They think they’re lazy. They think they’re not working hard enough. Whatever you want to see, there’s all this judgment and you’re losing really good employees because we’re not shifting environments to make it better.

That’s really what Mental Capital is, and it’s really fun and it’s really exciting and to go into like a place like Morgan Stanley where we’ve gone in and done a series of talks and had this wide range of people come up to us at the end, like, “We learned so much. This is so enlightening,” or parents of neurodiverse kids being like, “This is so helpful. How do I advocate for what I need in a workplace?” All of those things. It’s been a lot of fun to be creating.

It’s funny, I was just thinking as therapists, we take that for granted sometimes that everybody knows what we know or everybody’s had the similar experiences. Every once in a while, we meet people that have such a base experience with diversity or neurodiversity and as a result, the working environments can get really complicated and really hard.

I think you have it on both sides. You have the people that just don’t know what it means. They don’t know what the definitions are, they don’t know that we all have different cognitive differences. We have that piece and we’re all supposed to fit into the same hole and peg and that doesn’t work anymore. I think there’s two kinds of problems we have with people coming into work spaces that are neurodiverse.

One is they don’t always know how to advocate for themselves because you’ve also been told to be the round peg to get into the hole. You try and mask or create a persona that presents as normal whatever the heck normal means or you have people coming out of environments where they’ve been given. You work in schools.

In school systems, we have 504s and ieps, supports and all these things. All of a sudden, they got thrown out of college and those things don’t exist. That’s maybe what made them a really successful candidate for the job, having some scaffolding. Why do we take all the scaffolding away just because we like have a magic number of 21 or 22? It’s like, no scaffolding. We’re creating frameworks and businesses to keep some scaffolding because I mean, let’s face it, we all could use some scaffolding at different times. Wouldn’t that be helpful? We only know what we know. Having these conversations is really so important because more and more people are impacted and are going to be in the workplace.

You got me thinking about high school, college, and then work. I do a lot of work in high schools and that work in college, that transition. I see that when students not only have scaffolding academically, but then they go into a dorm. Their social skills are limited or low, and really, no one’s taken the time to help them with that.

It’s amazing when you start teaching and you start giving them skillsets and all of a sudden, they start picking up friends. I think it’s similar in the workplace in that they’re able to get things done in a way that their bosses want them to. Wonderful idea. Love the concept. I appreciate you giving us the backdrop of it.

How COVID Changed Mental Health & Emotional Resilience

Let me ask you this. Your practice. You see a lot of different things. I guess I have a couple thoughts or a couple of questions for you. One is we’ll call it post-COVID, I don’t even know if that’s the right term to be using right now, but since COVID has been a little bit in the backdrop, I guess I’m wondering what are some of the trends that you’re noticing with young people in your office?

I think starting in COVID, we really started to see how disconnected young people are. I think that has continued, unfortunately. You have kids in rooms with other kids that are just lonely and disconnected from one another. Fundamentally, we have two buckets of things I’m seeing, not even diagnostically, but we have the emotion dysregulation, lack of the ability to regulate an emotion without some distress tolerance strategy. Without some sort of distraction, I don’t know how to just sit in emotion. You have these very dysregulated kids that become young adults and adults, and we don’t have those skills. I think you have that on the one hand. You have simultaneous with that, a real dearth of interpersonal effectiveness skills.

They don’t know how to say, “I’m really struggling,” or, “I know you think I’m the star athlete and everything’s great, but am I miserable?” In fact, I spoke to a parent who’s like, “We just found out my son had four suicide attempts that failed. We had no idea that this was going on for him.” Top student, top school, star athlete but so well masked that no one had any idea. We hear those stories all the time.

Our specialty in Hartstein Psychological is these high risk, high intensity, highly dysregulated kids. Even with our clients that don’t fit that category, no one knows how to self-soothe. No one knows how to just be like, “This is a rough day. I’m going to lay on the couch and have a pity party for a few hours and cry or be upset or whatever and then I’m going to get up.”

We are so busy being like, “I can’t feel this. Get on my phone, get on a screen. Do something.” It’s amplified as we all know so much more now by comparisons online and all of the things that we’re leaning into with social media. Those are the big buckets that my practice and like all my people would all probably agree are the big holes for young people right now.

Teens, Substances & The Problem With Over-Parenting

I have to say, whether it’s running to the phone for soothing, clearly the whole social media piece, I also see young people with the advent of marijuana pens, mobile it is, we’ll say. With the advent of that, I’ve noticed when I say to kids sometimes, “How often are you using marijuana?” They can’t answer because it’s like 15 to 20 times a day that they’re just taking a puff off of their pen, which reminds me a lot of a child with a with a pacifier.

It doesn’t even have to be a marijuana vape. I think it can be any vape. They do such a good job of hiding it in their hand or hiding it in a sleeve, and all of a sudden, it’s like, “What?” I’m always amazed. I’m like, “Anywhere?” There’s this lack of responsibility. “Maybe sitting in the doctor’s office is not a place I should be vaping.” I had a client in the hospital and she’s like, “I snuck my vape in.” I’m like, “What?” It wasn’t marijuana, it was nicotine, there is this dependence thing.

I think that the third thing we don’t always like to talk about is we have very well intended adults in the lives of young people who over-function for young people. That makes that interpersonal effectiveness and emotion dysregulation bucket that much harder to fill because someone is always navigating the world for you. All of that over accommodation doesn’t allow anybody to learn they’re actually capable.

All of that overaccommodation from adults doesn't allow young people to learn they are actually capable. Share on X

It’s funny you should say that. I remember a student of mine getting turned down by a college, a seventeen-year-old. It occurred to me as she was sobbing about this that this might be like the first time she’s felt disappointment of this level in her entire life at seventeen. I think that as adults, it becomes our job to let kids tolerate some of these things. Let’s face it, as parents, I think we’re constantly in the middle there of I don’t want my child too anxious or depressed versus I do need to let my child deal with stuff.

Failure As A Tool For Growth & Building Resilience

Failure’s a gift. Jess Lahey wrote one of my favorite books that I recommend to parents all the time called The Gift of Failure. It’s really all about the place we learn is where we fail. Kids learn how to walk because they walk and they fall down. We don’t pick them up all the time. They’ll never learn how to walk. Why do we, all of a sudden, think we can’t let our young people fail? I think that that’s where we learn the most. Jess’s book is just like so spot on in having that conversation. I think that there’s that.

I think that what we ultimately are doing when we’re trying to protect our kids from feeling anxious, feeling sad, failing, is we’re inadvertently teaching them that they’re actually incapable of handling it. We’re actually making them more anxious. We don’t realize that because it also requires parents to navigate their own emotions. Be like, “I can tolerate my kid being anxious. I can tolerate my child sobbing out of disappointment,” and having to just sit there and validate and not tell them, “I can fix it.” That’s really hard.

The resilient piece of being able to come back from that Yeah. Is so important to their self-worth. You hit the nail on the head. I see a little bit of all of that. As parents, it’s a challenge. It is a huge challenge with things like vape pens and things like phones and stuff around kids that work against us as parents. Even therapists. It puts us in a position. You mentioned it increases anxiety. A lot of our work is helping kids tolerate anxiety.

That’s so hard. I had a meeting with a teenager and we were talking about something she was anxious about, but she had something else. She remembered she was anxious about over here. She wants an answer on something that she can’t get an answer on it. She’s so frustrated. I’m like, “Okay, but you’re going to do this thing. We’ve got to come up with some strategies.” She was like, “I have to focus on this side and you have to give me an answer.”

When I wouldn’t give her an answer, it was like she got more and more escalated and I was like, “Alright, hold on. I will hold this space for you to be upset. I can handle it. You can be as frustrated with me as you want. I don’t care, but we still have to finish this conversation. How can you be okay waiting?” I think that was like this beautiful microcosm of what happens with so many kids we see all the time. “What do you mean I have to wait? Give me an answer now.” We are an immediate gratification society. I want it. I order it, I get it tomorrow, the end. There’s no waiting.

You sound like me, Jen. I say that all the time. Amazon wasn’t good enough, so we made Amazon Prime because we need it faster. What’s interesting is like one huge thing in a young person’s world that they can’t speed up is school. School is anything but fast. Many kids have to wait for grades. They have to wait for college entrance stuff and everything you have to wait for.

They’re just not used to that. Maybe that leads me to my next question. I’m wondering about this. Anxiety and depression are obviously way up. You and I see it all the time in our offices. I’m wondering, when you think about what are some of the things that prompt that? Why are they up so much? What comes to mind?

Social Media, Anxiety & The Rising Mental Health Crisis

When you look at the numbers, the numbers are staggering. If we just think basic research numbers like suicide is the second leading cause of death for 10 to 25-year-olds. Anxiety went up for girls heading into COVID until just after COVID, like 200%. Self-harm rates increased. We know 1 in 4 young people have tried self-harming at least one time, which we can talk about also. The numbers are scary. I’m not scared of them, although I think they are scary. I think so much of it is what we were talking about a little bit before. We live in a society because of social media especially. Please let me preface this by saying, I do not think social media is the only enemy of young people. I think it is a problem for young people.

I think that the pendulum has swung over to phones and social media and all this stuff are the devil, but for a socially anxious kid, they’re a lifeline. There’s so much good but I think we’re the messaging right now is take all the phones away and like, go back to feeling the grass. Go back to building independence. Kids are too codependent. They do not know how to do. When I see a ten-year-old walk into school by themselves in the city, I do a little internal happy dance because I love the independence. I think the anxiety and the depression is coming from this constant comparison.

Let us go back to building independent kids. They are too co-dependent. Take all the phones away and go back to feeling the grass. Share on X

When I was growing up in the ‘70s and ‘80s, I didn’t know about the party because I didn’t know about the party. I learned about it on Monday but I wasn’t watching it unfold in real time on social media through Snapchat or Instagram and then having maybe people talk about me when I wasn’t there and all of those things. There’s this, “Am I going to be included?” That’s part of adolescence. That’s part of development, growth and finding yourself.

However, if I had to live my life out loud all the time, I’m so glad that that was not part of my adolescence. We can’t diminish the impact of that on a very malleable undeveloped brain of trying to understand what it all means. We, as adults, I’m sure there are moments you see something on social media as an adult. I’m a 53-year-old woman, and I’m like, “Why wasn’t I invited to that?” I feel disappointed in that. I can be like, “Does it really matter?” Now make me 13 or 14 and I’m watching that.

I think that there is a part of us that always wants to be part of the community included and when I’m not, I question it. I’m comparing myself to what do you look like and what’s your curated life. The comparisons that we’ve always had are so much harder to navigate, and because we’re not always talking about them, kids don’t know how to process it. They don’t know how to say, “That’s not reality. That person’s life isn’t real.”

I think the social media piece, the comparisons piece and the life in real time unfolding in front of us are huge. Sometimes we just have these unrealistic expectations of young people and what they’re supposed to be doing and the way the world is. They are climate afraid. We have not prepared a world for them that’s great and they know it and they’re afraid of it.

We are getting messaging that if you belong to a certain marginalized group, you’re not good enough. If you’re part of a trans community, you’re not allowed to be who you are. How does that impact this young group of people who believe in gender fluidity and sexual fluidity, but no, don’t do that. Everything about them that they’re supposed to be questioning is being questioned by the larger thing. I think that there’s just like no reprieve.

I see that all the time. You made me think, too. I’m on social media a lot for my businesses and half of my audience is students, half of them are parents. The things that I see students, in particular young ladies doing online in terms of comparison is disturbing. I was looking up the book you wrote and thought, “I’ve got to ask Jen about this.”

I’m all over the place.

Empowering Young People & Encouraging Emotional Expression

No, you’re not. You’re touching on some very amazing things. I ask, Jen, you’re talking to an audience of young people right now, and I want to know from your perspective if you’re talking directly to a young lady, let’s say teenager, what advice do you give them around empowerment?

I don’t know if you saw that amazing Dove commercial during the Super Bowl.. It’s just like this delightful three-year-old that she’s running and her legs bring her places and are so empowering, but at fourteen, they’re going to be the things she hates the most. We get that this is why girls drop out of sports. I was teary-eyed in the commercial because I loved it. What’s so disheartening to me is I wrote my book in 2011. We could have the exact same conversation with a few tweaks about what I talk about in my book, because this is what happens with girls and it has happened forever.

It’s hormonal, societal and developmental. There are so many variables. What I really say to young people, and I see a lot of girls in my office where we have these conversations, is what’s the thing you love internally and externally? Internally, what’s the thing about yourself that makes you, you? You have to identify that. Most people will go, “My friends will say,” or, “My parents will say.” No, I don’t want to know any of that. What’s you and how do we water that seed?

“I’m really funny.” “Cool. How do we use that as your superpower?” “I’m a great juggler.” “Awesome. How do we use that as your superpower?” Really slowing down and having some internal exploration of what’s that thing, that light that I will not let anybody snuff out that I will protect at all costs. What’s the external thing that I love? You love Dungeons and Dragons? Cool. Find a Dungeons and Dragons team. You love to play soccer. Okay, great. Can you be part of a soccer club?

There are groups of people for all of us. Being part of the popular crowd looks great, but being part of the popular crowd sucks. There’s so much effort in staying in the popular crowd. Find your people. I think that’s where most young people get stuck. High school movies show high school as so fabulous. I tell most of my clients, “You find your people, like your true people, on your sophomore year in college.”

Your high school people are your people, but many of them are people you’ve known since you were in kindergarten, so they’re your people by default. You go to college, it’s sometimes the first time you’ve had to actually make friends outside of the forced friendships from childhood. Freshman year, you’re trying to figure out who those people are. It’s all new. You might find this crew and they might be great, but sophomore year, when you’re settled, you find your people.

I have had several clients come back to me later and be like, “How did you know that?” I’m like, “I went to college and I lived it.” I just watch what happens. Some of that is really understanding who you want your people to be. I think that’s empowering in and of itself.

I’m really glad you said that last part because I just said to a patient, “In my opinion, your people, number one, treat you like you treat them. Number two, they’re there for you when you need them. Just like you’re there for them.” Kids get that really confused. If you’re around people that you think are your people that aren’t there for you, they’re not really your people.

Yet we continue to try and make them our people. We continue to try and be like, “They were nice to me yesterday, so they’ll be nice to me tomorrow.” You shouldn’t have a friendship that’s an every other day friendship. Young people just they think it’s what should be. This is the negotiation of relationships young people have to figure out. The letting go of a friendship at any point of our lives, I don’t care how old we are, is painful and sad and no one wants to feel that. Part of it goes back to this idea of failure. It’s part of life. Not all relationships are lifetime relationships, even when we think they’re going to be. That’s really hard.

I think if you talk to enough young people, you hear those themes. You just hear them over and over again. You also hear what referencing earlier, that hidden world like, “I’m super depressed, but I don’t let people know that.” Especially males. I was talking with a student and we joked about this, but I think there’s some real truth to it. I had said to him, “When was the last time you cried openly in front of people?” He looked at me as though he had never done it. I said, “Just so you know, I asked that same question to a female an hour ago, and she said, ‘Your waiting room.’” there’s that sense of male-female split of how young men are able to embrace that. I’m sure you see that in your space.

Athletes, Mental Health & The Role Of Public Figures

This is why I love AJ Brown. There is some really important stuff happening. I agree that I think we’re getting a shift. We’re getting a shift in the AJ Browns, the Jason Kelsey’s like all of these tough NFL players and basketball players and all that stuff that are coming out and talking about mental health. We can say, “Kevin Love really started a lot of these conversations with basketball and all this stuff.” I think that we’re seeing it’s becoming the norm.

I’ve had some interactions with some former pro athletes and a lot of them are really starting to recognize like, “I need to talk about these things. I need to be open. I need to be sharing my story because I can have an impact on person X, Y, or Z. I can tell these young men.” We know there’s also an even bigger divide when it’s men of color versus not. Men of color have a whole very another level of, “I’m supposed to be strong.” I just want everybody to bow down to AJ Brown and his openness because I think that that is going to be a game changer. I like what he did for the author of that book. Just a game changer. He’s basically being like, “There’s nothing wrong with that.”

It’s funny, I was interviewing Damien Gregory, a colleague of mine who played in the NFL, and Damien nominated AJ. This is before the Super Bowl. I said, “If you get him on my show, I’ll be forever thankful.” I agree. He has opened doors for people, not just men, but it isn’t just around general mental health. I also think it’s around suicide specifically. To me, and I’m sure to you as well as a therapist, the scariest side of mental health for parents and for anyone is that, and yet, who are watching those numbers. Here’s the craziest part. Yes, suicide is the second leading cause of death. Years ago, it was number twelve. I always tell parents like, “It is moving in the wrong direction,” and there’s a reason for that.

By the way, attempts are three times that. We’re talking about these completed suicides. We’re not talking about the fact that you get three attempts to every completed suicide. The greatest predictor of future attempt is past attempt. People attempt multiple times.

I’m with you. It’s such a scary topic. As a therapist, I think we’ve talked about it a lot. It maybe is easier for us to talk about, but I tell parents all the time, please. Certainly, there’s things that are hard to talk about. Sex, puberty, I get all that. This is one of those topics that nobody is immune to. One of the greatest things that I hear Eric say all the time from Same Here is five and five, we are all susceptible. I really believe that. I believe that in all the wrong circumstances, these things come out. Just when you think that guy or that young lady, they’re fine. They’re not. Ask them.

Destigmatizing Therapy & Treating Mental Health Like Physical Health

I think what one of the things that I also appreciate about Eric’s messaging is that mental health and physical health are equally important. We go for yearly physicals. We don’t hesitate. I didn’t feel well last week. I didn’t hesitate to walk into the doctor like. It’s very funny, as a therapist, it’s not like I say to my clients, “When I go to therapy.”

I had a client say to me, “I don’t know anything about you.” I was like, “What do you want to know? Within reason, I’ll answer you.” She was like, “Do you go to therapy?” First she said, “Do you have a mental illness?” I said, “I don’t actually think of things that way.” She goes, “Do you have issues?” I was like, “Doesn’t everybody?” She kept poking the bear and I finally was like, “What do you want to know? Do you want to know if I go to therapy?” She said, “Yes.” I said, “Yeah, I go to therapy.” She was shocked I answered her. I think she was also shocked that I go, “Why not?” I’ve got to practice what I preach. If I’m telling you to go to therapy, I’m going to go to therapy.

I think that surprises people. We always joke like, “Who’s the therapist to the therapist to the therapist?” At what point, does the threat end? Mental health and physical health, we know they play off each other and we know that they’re equal importance. If we are not paying attention to that, we’re really missing the mark.

I think our physical health and our mental health, I’ve really thought this really for my entire adult life. We have two choices. We either take care of them or they take care of us. For young people, it’s unfortunate, but I know young people that don’t go get annual physicals. They don’t go to the dentist, they don’t do this, they don’t do that.

I say it all the time, “If you’ve got things that are troubling you,” and everybody knows what that means, “Go see a therapist.” I’ve done it many times and it’s really helped, simply put. Jen, your breath of fresh air. You’re fun to talk to. I feel like I could talk to you all day and unfortunately, I’m sure we’ve got other things we got to move on to at some point.

That may be true.

Who’s Next? Passing the Torch

Let me ask you one last question. Part of the show is I ask if you’ve got a person, a friend, a relative, a coworker, AJ’s already taken by the way, to nominate. Feel free to throw a name out. I’d love to interview them next.

I’m going to nominate a young woman who I met at an event. Her name is Olivia Healy. She is amazing. A young Gen Z-er who made a short film about her panic attack. Brilliant. Smart. She really wants to open up people’s ability to talk about what anxiety is like, as it has impacted her and as it impacts young people. I am going to suggest that she be involved in this convo because I think she’ll bring some great ideas to the table.

I really appreciate it. I super look forward to connecting with her and get her info from you offline. I appreciate you nominating her. I don’t usually do this, but I’m going to break this one. Please go back when you get a chance and watch Emma Benoit’s interview. I interviewed her. She’s a young lady. She’s actually a suicide survivor.

I interviewed her a couple of shows ago. Unbelievable young lady. Readers, if you haven’t seen it, please go back. Most importantly, I appreciate your time, Jen, really, and this was great. I don’t often have therapists on, so this was really helpful for me to hear your side of things. Things are a little different in Manhattan than they are in Connecticut, so it’s always nice to hear a different view. I didn’t even ask you about the Yankees and the Mets. I won’t even go there.

I’m a Mets girl. Sorry.

You’re a Mets girl. All right. We we’re going to disagree on one thing. That’s all.

That’s okay. Thanks for having me, Mark. I really appreciate it. Thanks for all you’re doing to just have the conversations, it’s so important.

I appreciate it. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Thanks. You, too.

Thanks.

Important Links

About Dr. Jen Hartstein

Jennifer L. Hartstein, PsyD, is the owner of Hartstein Psychological Services, a group psychotherapy practice in New York City. Dr. Jen works with children, adolescents, and their families with a wide range of psychological diagnoses and specializes in the treatment of high-risk children and adolescents. She has received intensive training in adolescent suicide assessment and has specialized in this population for several years, using a variety of treatment approaches, including Dialectical Behavior Therapy.

Additionally, Dr. Jen is the cofounder of Mental Capital, working with companies large and small to attract, hire and retain neurodiverse employees and staff while helping to create neuroinclusive work environments. Dr. Jen frequently speaks with companies about mental health, stress reduction and how leaders can create healthy work environments for their employees. Dr. Jen is on the executive committee and is a board member for Active Minds, an organization working to decrease the stigma of mental health. She is part of the Practitioner Alliance of We’re All a Little “Crazy,” a global mental health initiative.

Dr. Jen was a self-esteem ambassador for Dove’s Real Beauty campaign and was on the advisory board for MTV’s A Thin Line, which focused on the digital behaviors of today’s young people. Dr. Jen is the author of Princess Recovery: A How-to Guide for Raising Strong, Empowered Girls who Can Create Their Own Happily Ever Afters and is a regular contributor to a variety of media outlet, including, but not limited to NBC News Now, NBC’s The Today Show, Huffington Post, Parents Magazine and more.

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Shock | Mental Health

Using Music For Change: A Mental Health Advocacy Journey With Shocka

May 13, 2025April 4, 2025

Mental health advocacy takes center stage in this compelling episode, where host Marc Lehman welcomes rapper Kenneth Erhahon, better known by his stage name, Shocka, a force within the grime scene and a passionate voice for this crucial cause. When rhythm meets reality, powerful voices emerge, and Shocka’s is one of them. Beyond the beats and rhymes of his music, Shocka shares his deeply personal journey, revealing how his own experiences ignited a mission to advocate for others. This conversation uncovers the raw honesty of Shocka’s artistry, his impactful efforts to raise mental health awareness, and the transformative power of using your voice for change.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Using Music For Change: A Mental Health Advocacy Journey With Shocka

I’m super excited to welcome in our guest Kenneth Erhahon, better known by his stage name is Shocka. Shocka is a rapper and mental health advocate from London. He gained recognition by being one third of Grime collective Marvell, alongside Double S and Vertex. Yes. After dealing with mental health issues himself, Shocka became a mental health advocate to help those with their own problems with his music. If you haven’t heard his music, look them up. It’s awesome. He has since aimed to raise awareness of mental health issues. Shocka, welcome. How are you?

I’m good. Thank you so much for having me. It’s our honor.

Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. It’s so tricky. When I do an intro, I feel like I’m telling just a bit about a person, but I know there’s so much more. Tell us a little bit about your background.

There is so much to it. First of all, the name Shocka because everyone always says, “That’s an interesting name. Where did they get that name from?” The name has two meanings. First of all, two positive meanings. The first meaning was because I wanted to shock my friends, my family, and the world in a positive way. I wanted them to look back on my life’s story at the end of it and be like, “He really did something amazing.”

The second meaning is actually an acronym for what Shocka means. Shocka stands for spiritual healer others can know is around them. What does that mean? That means the more I’m open about my story, the more I’m vulnerable. Other people around me can see that and decide to emulate that if it works for them and brings them to their place of healing.

That’s why I do what I do. Healing is actually a big theme of what I do. I was just talking to my manager about this saying like, “Healing has played a major part.” You know about the Marvel characters, right?

Sure.

The X-Men. Wolverine was my favorite character. It’s so crazy that I subconsciously picked him because his power was like he could heal himself whenever he gets injured. It started from there because people used to call me Wolverine because I used to have like long sideburns, which I still have now. I used to have fixed sideburns and people used to name me Wolverine. He has always played like a little theme.

A Transformational Book: You Can Heal Your Life

There’s been a thread throughout my whole life. The name and then when I went through my mental health difficulties, which I’ll get into, the book that actually changed my life was a book from a woman called Louise Hay, which you might have heard of. She’s American. She’s passed on now. I don’t if you know who she is.

I haven’t heard of her, no.

She’s incredible. She’s got a book called You Can Heal Your Life. I discovered that actually changed my whole life around, but a bit into going into my journey. I was in a group with Marvell, as you mentioned in my bio. There was three of us, me, Double S and Vertex. I was the Nigerian one. Another one was Ghanaian and another one was Ugandan.

We formed this group and we just had big dreams to take over the world and just do something positive from where we came from because where we came from is really negative. I’m from a place called Tottenham. I don’t know if you know about football. I don’t know if you watch football, if you’re into it. There’s a team called Tottenham, which is the area I live in. One in the football teams are called Tottenham, but there’s a little place in Tottenham called Broadwater Farm. That’s where I’m from.

That place had two riots. One was in 1986 where police officer’s head got chopped off. That’s how severe the riots was. There’s always been problems between the community and the police. There was another riot in 2012 where someone from my area got shot down by the police. There’s a hostile relationship with the police and my area was so terrible that Princess Diana, I’m sure you know who Princess Diana is. Princess Diana came to my area to make peace, to tell us to relax. That’s how bad my area was.

Now my area’s extremely positive. There’s a guy from my area, I don’t think you know who he is, but he went to number one in the charts and he brought a lot of positive attention to my area. You’ve got people like myself doing really positive things here. Things are changing. Anyway, the group called Marvell, the other two guys in the group, they’re round the corner from me. They’re from Northumberland Park, which is like ten minutes away. We all got together, formed this group called Marvell and we did amazing things.

In 2010, we met Drake really early. We were one of the first artists from the UK to bump into Drake. We literally bumped to him. We met Drake before he became a megastar. I still have the footage of it. When I see Drake, I’m going to show him this footage and hopefully he remembers me because he’s done so much since then. He’ll never forget the first time he came to London. That’s when we saw him.

He came with Rihanna, which was the distracting part because he came with Rihanna. Rihanna’s already a big star. He wasn’t. We forgot about him and focused on Rihanna. We met both of them and it was amazing. We did some incredible things. We toured us some huge acts over here. That was in 2010. This is where it gets interesting.

We brought out our first single on the 10th of the 10th of 2010. We picked that date because we believed that our lives was going to change forever on that day. We’ll look back in twenty years and be like, “That was the day that we became millionaires and changed our family’s lives.” The complete opposite happened. That day came and our song didn’t even do well. It wasn’t even the top 200s of the charts. That’s when I went into depression for the first time. I experienced isolation.

I always say to people, “There’s a difference between isolation and solitude.” Solitude is when you willingly depart from the world and take some time for yourself willingly. Isolation is when you’re forced into hiding where you force yourself into hiding because you can’t face the world or face people. That’s what I went into.

There's a difference between isolation and solitude. Solitude is when you willingly depart from the world and take some time for yourself. Isolation is when you're forced into hiding. Share on X

I went into isolation. I started like hiding from my friends due to the fact that we lost our record deal and our song didn’t do well. I was talking to a lot of artists now and I realized a lot of artists has been through that similar situation of having problems with their record. It’s a common thing. Even Liam Payne from One Direction that passed away. The news broke out that he was having problems with his record label just before. It is a common thing. I went into deep depression. We got signed in 2010. The song came out 10/10/10 then we lost our record in 2011. I went into a mental health hospital for the first time in 2012.

That’s when everything really changed because now, I’ve been introduced to a world that I knew nothing about. I used to just hear about this world. I don’t know what they call it in America, but in the area that I’m from, they call it like, “He’s gone crazy. He’s lost his mind. He’s a cycle.” You know the words that they throw around. I had to deal with that thing, that big mistake when I came out of hospital the first time. I feel like just sweep it under the rug and pretend like nothing had happened, which is wrong. I was meant to speak and verbalize it and get help. As you can imagine, the stigma was so fake. I came from a family that wasn’t educated on mental health. Even they was advising me not to tell no one.

That’s what we’ve been used to. That’s the programming throughout all of these centuries and centuries, don’t speak about it. That’s what I did. What happened was when I came out hospital in 2012, the group that I was in, Marvell, we got some investment from someone and they moved us out of our area. This is where the problem came.

Every Christmas, we will come back to the area to see our family, to spend Christmas with our family. Christmas time, I had to come back to this house where I had the breakdown and other mental health issues. That trauma will resurface. I end up getting sectioned again and putting a mental health hospital again for the second time. It used to be every two years. Every two years I would relapse and end up in hospital.

From 2012 to 2014, two years later, in 2016, I went to the hospital again. This time is where everything changed for me. The doctor said to me before he discharged me, “You’ve been sectioned,” because that’s what it’s called, sectioning. I don’t know what they call it in America when you get put in mental health hospital. In the UK you’re, it’s called being sectioned. They’re allowed to keep you there for 21 days.

The third time I got sectioned, the doctor said something just before he discharged me. He said, You’ve been sectioned three times. You’re 27 years old. You need to figure something out because you don’t want to keep coming in and out hospital for the rest of your life.” When he said that to me, it’s like a light bulb just went off in my head like, “You’re right.”

It reminds me being 50 or 60 and I’m still being sectioned. That’s when I discovered the book. That’s when I found the book. Whatsapp stories was just being introduced. I didn’t want to use whatsapp stories because I felt like there was copying. Instagram, I avoided it for so long. When I came out hospital, I started checking people’s stories and a girl had this book on her story from Louise Hay and I mentioned it to her. I said, “Ashley, is that a good book?” She said yes. I bought the book and it completely changed my life. I’m not really an avid reader, I’m more a visual person. Stuff like this is perfect. What I did after I read the book, I tagged her name into youtube to see if she’s got any videos that I could watch.

She had tons of videos. I studied all of them. What changed my life was she spoke about self-love in a way that I never heard of before. She said self-love is not about bubble bath and massages and getting your toes and your nails done. She said self-love is about how you speak to yourself, your internal dialogue. She said, ‘If you could get that conversation right, everything will change. You’ll know it will change because your reality will begin to reflect back to you, the conversation you’re having in your mind.” She was completely right.

“Self-love is not about bubble baths, massages, and getting your toes and nails done. Self-love is about how you speak to yourself.” Share on X

As soon as I got in that conversation right, everything started to change. I did my first sold out show in 2017. In 2018, I made a song called Self Love based on everything she taught me. That song ended up getting signed. Snoop Dogg posted that song on his Instagram. Snoop Dogg has 26 million followers. It was worldwide. In 2019, I got offered to do a TED Talk.

I’ve seen it.

I did the TED Talk 2019 and then I did two shows in New York. I actually came back to America, did two shows. At the end of the year, in 2020, we all know what happened. COVID. We had to go into lockdown. I was pissed off because I started getting trauma about what happened with my group. We were just at the door and then we started record deal. Now I’m at the door again and COVID has come. I’m getting trauma and then my life’s about to change even more.

Losing His Mother & Coping With Grief

My mom comes home one day and tells me she’s just come from the hospital and they said she’s got cancer. She’s got a year to live. It devastated me. I’m my only child. I grew up with my mom my whole life. As you can see, there are pictures of my mom on the wall. I don’t know if you can see that there. I’m in the same house that she told me the news. She had a year to live so we had to fly away to Nigeria to see our family because she has to say her goodbyes to the family, which was devastating.

In 2022, she passed away on the 2nd of February. I had my headline show on the 27th of February. I had my mom’s funeral on the 8th of February, like a week later. Everything was just happening so fast. I ended up being back in hospital again. After all of that pressure, I ended up relapsing going back in hospital again after six years. Remember, I said it was every two years. I broke that two-year curse and it was six years. Don’t forget now, in between that six years, I’m a full on mental health advocate now because I did TED Talks and talks in school. I knew exactly what to do when I’m at hospital.

I had my phone with me this time for the first time. My auntie gave me my phone because all the other times I’ve been sectioned, my mom never gave me my phone because she wouldn’t want me to talk to every anyone because Nigerians are extremely private. This time when I got sectioned, because my mom had passed away, my auntie didn’t really know what my mom does, so she gave me my phone on a visit.

When I got back to my room, I remember looking at my phone thinking, “What am I going to do with this?” Everything just came to me. It was like, “Take videos while you’re here. Show people what it’s like,” because people don’t know what it’s like in there, what it even looks like. I took pictures, I took videos. That’s where I got the idea for my book, A Section of My Life. That’s where I wrote most of it.

When I came out of hospital, I ended up getting a book deal. Everything’s just been amazing since then. I got the book deal. The book came out. I performed at a place called the National Gallery. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but it’s a place called the National Gallery over here. I’m the first artist to ever perform there. That place is older than me and you. I did a documentary with ITV. There’s a big channel called ITV over here. I did a documentary that I was screened on that channel. It’s just been amazing ever since. That’s my story in a nutshell. I hope I didn’t take up too much time.

Generational Divide: Perceptions On Mental Health

Shocka, you could take up all the time you want, number one. Number two, I thank you so much for being open and sharing all of that. I know my readers. Something in that will resonate with them. I’m listening and I’m thinking a few things. Number one, I want to talk a little bit about how mental health is in London and how it compares to say the United States. There are some differences. Certainly, I want to talk to you more about your shift that you made, it sounds like since this last hospitalization and even a little before, to become advocate. I think that there’s clearly something in you that wants to heal and help others.

Let’s talk a little bit about the comparison because I think that out here in the States, I would describe mental health as an epidemic with young adults in particular. The anxiety and depression levels, eating disorders, substances, ADHD, etc., are just skyrocketing. The suicide rate is higher than it’s ever been. Yet at the same time, there’s more and more discussion about mental health I would say compared to years ago.

It’s way more open. I’m constantly amazed when I talk to young people how comfortable some people are talking to each other about it. It’s a journey. It’s a process to help people understand that there is definitely healing that takes place when you open yourself up and recognize that what you are going through, a lot of other people are too. Does that make sense?

Yes, definitely. What I want to say is that mental health has always been there. What has happened was my parents’ generation, so the older generation, they didn’t deal with it. They didn’t deal with it not because they didn’t want to, but they didn’t have the luxury to deal with it. Their life was so fast paced. My mom came to the UK at such a young age and had me at a young age. I haven’t even had my first kid yet. By this age, my mom had had me and I had a full-on life. They didn’t have time. When people would die in her time, they would just get on with it. They would mourn for like a day and then just go back to work and get on with it.

I remember when my mom first got her cancer diagnosis, she worked for like a week or two until we told her like, “No, you need to forget work and deal with this at hand.” That generation was so used to just like sweeping it under the rug. What’s happened with this generation is that now we’ve got the luxury to actually look at things. We’ve got a lot of time to talk to each other and do podcasts. That generation couldn’t do podcast. Sitting down and talking at a podcast?

There’s racism. They’re trying to kill us. That generation was the it is what it is generation. It is what it is. Just continue. This generation is just keep moving forward. That was it is what it is generation and this generation is the let’s finally deal with it and put us up to a generation. If this generation doesn’t deal with it, what we’re going to do is we’re going to lay out enough blueprints and enough information for the next generation to have all the tools they need.

That’s a great segue. I want to ask you about that because I think that my audience, some of them are going through their own journey and those that maybe aren’t have people around them that are, and you just talked about your journey. Let’s talk about where music fits into that, the healing side of your lyrics and your performances and your music. Talk to us about that.

Using Music As Therapy & Finding Purpose In Lyrics

As you can see me nodding my head, music played a major part because I’ve never gone to therapy and people are so surprised. They’re like, “You’ve been sectioned four times and you’ve never seen a therapist?” I’ve done similar things to therapy but not actual full on therapy because my music has served as therapy for me.

My music was so deep at a point that I forgot it was music. My friends started telling me like, “You’ve got to start putting choruses and picking nice beats because it still is music because it isn’t becoming full under depressing.” That’s how much I use it as a tool for healing. Now I’ve got the perfect balance. Now I’ve got a perfect balance of having a beautiful message using it as therapy and still something that you can listen to and vibe to. It took years to get to that balance.

Before, I used to just dump. I don’t know if you’ve listened to my albums, but the first one I have was called Vent. I’m on vent four right now. The event started by me just venting. That’s what vents are about. If you listen to every vent, it’s a reflection of where I am in my life. My last vent is me speaking about my mom’s cancer because that’s what was going on.

This vent, vent four, that’s on this new album, Vulnerability Is The New Cool, I’m talking about the money I’m making and what life is like. I’m talking about Palestine. It’s always a reflection of the time. I look forward to my next vent five whenever I do it. I’m so happy I’ve got something like that. Having something like that is important. Even if you don’t have a recorded vent version like what I’ve got, you should have a diary vent version. Every month, vent out.

You read my mind. I talk to a lot of young people about journaling and some of your lyrics remind me of journal entries.

They are, definitely.

By the way, you’re a fantastic songwriter. I’ve listened to a lot of your music. You’re an excellent songwriter. I think there’s so much passion in your words. I listen to a lot of different music and I feel like as a listener, sometimes you can feel the passion and sometimes you can’t. Do you know what I mean?

Definitely.

It sounds like you’ve gotten a lot of therapeutic value out of songwriting and, as you said, venting.

Yeah, definitely venting is extremely important. There’s one thing about seeing your words in a paper, then there’s another thing about hearing your voice, saying what’s in your mind out loud for the world to hear it. That’s what I love. I love like certain things that’s bothering me in my head and then recording it and then listening to it and then dissecting it and realizing that it wasn’t even that big of an issue. Our biggest fear is that if we say it to someone, how are they going to respond? In most cases, they respond in a way that you generally not thinking they’re going to respond.

That’s right. In our head, it feels bigger, right?

The Power Of Vulnerability & Encouraging Open Conversations

Yeah, it feels bigger. That’s why I made Vulnerability Is The New Cool because like Jay-Z’s got an amazing saying that he says you can’t heal what you don’t reveal. It’s true. If you don’t heal it, you can’t reveal it. It’s like if I can make vulnerability cool, it can give people more of an initiative or incentive to want to reveal and realize that there’s nothing really there when they reveal it. What they’re afraid of is not really that scary when they reveal it.

There’s so many ways to be vulnerable. I always list five ways. You’ve got the spirituality where being vulnerable, where you can talk to your creator in the place of your comfort. You’ve got therapy, which we all know about. We’ve got venting to our friends or our partner. If you’ve got a wife or a husband or best friend, you’ve got that way. You’ve got journaling. You’ve got your art like drawing. I can see paintings behind you. That was obviously therapy for that person. You’ve got the way that I use, which is recording. There’s so many different ways. People think there’s only one way which is talking to a person. That’s actually the hardest way.

That’s the most difficult. That’s the last option I’ll pick out of the six. There are so many other ways, but the whole point of it is getting it out of you. You can burn it. That’s another way. You can put it on a paper and burn it. You just have to get it out your system and just see it. The problem is it lives inside of us. I think the longer it stays inside you, the more chances it can turn into poison and start to poison you, the more you keep it inside you. When you keep it out, when you get out of you, you can look at it and you can play with it.

What’s fascinating, Shocka, is so much of your music, the stuff you write about when you do get it out and you do put it in song resonates. At least I found listening to it, I can understand those things because either I’ve experienced it or know people that have. I definitely think that’s one thing that music does. It really brings us together more because when it’s up here, it’s only in our head we feel like we’re the only one experiencing it.

Some people’s voices have healing components, genuinely.

I’ve been told mine does not.

There are certain voices that need to be spreading across the world. It’s actually good for humanity. There are certain voices that you need. There was a woman over here called Jenny Francis. She used to be on late nights. There’s a radio station called Capital Xtra and Jenny Francis. It’s called Capital Xtra now, but it used to be called Choice FM. Jenny Francis used to be late night at Choice FM. She made a name because we all know her for how soothing her voice was on late night.

Everyone remembers Jenny Francis’ late night show. There are certain people that have gifts like that, their voices are just healing. It’s meant to be spreading across the world. I feel like if you’ve got that voice, you should use it. You should do voiceovers. You should talk to people more. You should become a motivational speaker if your voice is healing. There are certain people that they just talk to you and it just lights up your day.

The Influence Of Social Media & Mental Health In Young People

You’ve been so passionate about the topic of mental health. I think you’ve figured out, and many artists have now, that when you speak, people are listening, you know.. People admire artists. People admire people in the entertainment industry. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen video clips or been at concerts myself and the musician stops for a moment and lets people know that it’s okay. Shocka, let me ask you this. In the States, the scene with young people is in terms of statistics is moving in the wrong direction. Anxiety and depression is up. I’m assuming that’s the case. Where you’re from as well?

That’s the exact case.

Let me ask you, because I think everyone has an opinion on this, why do you think that is?

I think it’s social media. It’s something we’ve never had before throughout history. No one could have given us advice on what to do. This is unique to our time. We’ve never had Instagram like this. Like we’re dealing with a new problem. They’ve got to give us time to figure it out. We’re going to have problems. There’s going to be deaths. Unfortunately, there’s going to be anxiety, depression, suicides and there’s going to be all this stuff. We have to figure this out. Unfortunately, some people are going to be casualties until we figure this out. It’s not always going to be like this. It will come down when we start to really figure out and get a hold of it. Right now, it’s the Wild, Wild West. It’s new to all of us.

We’ve never had like our follow accounts. People with 1 million followers, getting 1 million likes. Going viral., you can trip over in the street and next thing you know, you’re on to news. Everyone’s talking about it. Imagine how that person feels like. Imagine how Will Smith must have felt like seeing a mistake he made with the slapping. It’s everywhere. You’ve been healing in public. It’s a new territory that we’re in, so we’re dealing with it

I really feel like there’s a positive edge to it and a negative edge to it. As you said, we’re still trying to manage the negative edge.

If it’s a lot to deal with for adults, imagine for kids. When I was in school, we didn’t even have phones in classrooms. It’s a whole different world we’re living in.

They’re plugged in all the time. The term influencers is used a lot in the States and there are positive influencers and there are negative influencers. To your point, when I was a kid, we were exposed to certain things on the news or the TV. Now kids are exposed to like, you know Yes.

Information is important, especially positive ones because they’re the ones that’s going to bring the control back because where else are the kids going to get the information from and how to deal with all of this? Kids aren’t really listening to their parents, which is sad, but it’s the truth. These influencers have more power than some of the parents of these kids. We’ve just got to make sure that our kids are listening to the right influencers. It’s so important because what put me on this path is that I had the right reference points. I don’t know if I can show you this, but on my shoulder I have a Bob Marley tattoo. Can you see that?

Yeah, sure.

I see that every morning and it always slaps me into gear of the positive impact he had on the world and like the messages he put in his songs and the life he led. It’s like your reference points and your influencers are so important. They just put you in line. Whenever I do something that’s distasteful, dishonorable, obviously he wouldn’t care, but it’s just a thought of would he do something like this? It’s just a respected act. It snaps me back in line. Pick the right reference points because 95% of the time, you do become your reference points as well. You actually turn into them. If you’re listening to them every day and study it, you’re going to become them. Pick the right ones.

I admire his career and everything he stood for and all of the influence he had certainly down in Jamaica and around the world. Certainly, I say to you, Shocka, you are an influencer. You are a person who is creating a full effect with your lyrics and your message. Keep doing what you’re doing. We appreciate it. I appreciate it. I just want to let you know that. Thank you.

You’re welcome.

Passing The Torch: Who Shocka Recommends For The Next Interview

I want to put you on the spot for just a sec. Part of what I do in the show is I ask that people nominate a friend, a coworker, a relative, because I want the conversation to keep forward. Do you have any in your world who you think would be helpful for me to interview next?

I do. There’s a guy called Ben West. He’s a mental health advocate too. Give him a DM or message me afterwards. I’ll send you his Instagram. The same way you reached out to me. Hopefully he sees it. If he can’t get Ben West, there’s a guy called Hussein Manuel. He’s amazing too. He’s a poet. He’s amazing. He’s got mental health books. He’s amazing. He helped me out a lot. I’ll send, so hopefully we keep the conversation going forward.

Thank you. Let me give you a little bit of space for a minute and tell our readers about your new album.

Shocka’s Upcoming Album

My album is Vulnerability Is The New Cool. If you haven’t heard that album, please listen to it. It’s an album that could heal you. You’re going to hear topics that you’ve never heard rappers talk about before. I’m speaking about them as such a beautiful way. Please listen to it. Reach out to me on Instagram. As you can see, I’m very accessible. I try to get back to all my messages. The day I don’t get back to my messages means that I’m a full-on superstar and that is too late. Before that time comes, I’m trying to hang on to what I’ve got left. I’m trying to respond back to everybody. Yeah, let me know your feedback on the album and we can talk about it.

You’re a grounded, honest and open human being, Shocka, and for that, I appreciate it. I, too, tell everybody to take a listen. I’ve listened to your new album. I think it’s great. Thank you for your time and your energy. I really appreciate you being so open and honest with everybody.

Let’s do it again.

I would love to. Shocka, have a great day. We’ll talk soon.

Pleasure.

Thank you.

Important Links

About Kenneth Erhahon (Shocka)

Kenneth Erhahon better known by his stage name Shocka, is a rapper and mental health advocate from London.

He gained recognition for being one/third of Grime collective Marvell alongside Double S and Vertex.

After dealing with mental health issues himself, Shocka became a Mental health advocate to help those with their own problems with his music.

He has since aimed to raise awareness of mental issues ….

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Rebecca Lobo | Mental Resilience

Basketball Icon On Mental Resilience And Well-Being With Rebecca Lobo

April 29, 2025April 4, 2025

Mental resilience is crucial for navigating the challenges of any high-pressure environment. In this inspiring episode, host Marc Lehman welcomes basketball icon Rebecca Lobo to discuss its pivotal role, particularly within the world of athletics. Rebecca, known for her standout career at the University of Connecticut and as one of the WNBA’s original stars, shares her insights on navigating the challenges of competitive sports and the importance of prioritizing well-being. This conversation delves into the pressures faced by athletes and explores strategies for building mental resilience to achieve success both on and off the court.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Basketball Icon On Mental Resilience And Well-Being With Rebecca Lobo

Welcome to the show. I am so excited to have Rebecca Lobo here. Rebecca, how are you?

I’m good. Thank you.

Rebecca is a basketball icon, a broadcaster, and an advocate for mental wellness. She was a standout at the University of Connecticut. She led the Huskies to their first national championship back in ‘95 and was named the NCAA’s Final Four most outstanding player. She went on to play professionally in the WNBA, becoming one of the league’s original stars with the New York Liberty.

Following her playing career, Rebecca transitioned into broadcasting, becoming a respected analyst for ESPN, where she provides insightful commentary on women’s college and professional basketball. Beyond sports, she’s been a vocal advocate for education, wellness, and the power of perseverance. She joins the show to discuss mental resilience, the pressures of high-level athletics, and the importance of prioritizing well-being. Welcome. How are things?

Things are good. It’s funny as you read some of my bio, and I think about a text that I got maybe a week and a half ago from one of my daughter’s college-aged friends. I was, “Mrs. Rush, and I’m hanging out with some friends, and your name came up, and I told them to be a family. One of my buddies said, I didn’t know she was still alive.” I am still alive. I am at the point where my oldest kids who are in college have college-age friends who know how to just jab one right in.

Makes us feel old. Look, we’re wise.

That’s right.

The Changing Landscape Of College Athletics

That’s got a lot of experience. I’m reading through that and I’m thinking, “Much has changed.” Landscape, certainly in college for these kids. Back when we were in school, it just felt less intense, less stressful, and certainly, from the athletic perspective, less intense and less stressful. I guess I just wanted to ask because you’re around now a lot of the players and you see and talk to and hear a lot of what they endure. I guess I just wanted you to compare out loud for us. What do you see?

What’s so crazy is when I was in college, if I wanted to seek out something that had been written about me, I had to go and find the Hartford Courant and purchase it and see what somebody may have said about our game the day before. At least, and I still feel this in life, people don’t generally come up and say to your face something, but they’re completely okay doing it on social media.

People are more likely to say mean things on social media than to your face. Share on X

I think that’s the thing that has changed so much, other than maybe occasional heckling on a road trip somewhere in a road arena. I don’t even think that happened in those days. You never really had negative stuff as an athlete in your face about you. It is your coach’s job to point out all of your shortcomings, but not the noise from the outside. That’s the thing that has changed so completely.

You hear a lot of athletes talk now, professional level, college level, to prove people wrong. I’m like, “Who are those people?” They’re the ones actually who don’t matter. They’re the social media. People on social media saying negative things. I don’t think people of my era came up trying to prove others wrong because those others weren’t really in your world. Maybe you got cut from a team, and you were trying to improve yourself and that thing, but you didn’t have that constant narrative of proving people wrong.

Just like a mirror being held up to you all the time. As you said, so many individuals, quite frankly, being negative.

It’s mean.

It really is.

We’re in my world of women’s basketball. It really got pushed to the forefront over the course of the past year with the phenomenon that is Caitlin Clark and the rivalry or whatever that she had with Angel Reese and, like, online, at least the toxicity that now follows, especially the WNBA, and studies have been done. It is the most negative place as people talking about these women’s basketball players. It’s really a scary place to be, especially for some of the younger women who are finding themselves immersed in that world.

It occurred to me recently, I was interviewing a lacrosse coach from IMG Academy down in Florida, and of course, high school level. She was talking about how they feed so many kids into college. I thought, “I wonder how much of this they’re prepared for. Like how much discussion occurs on the high school level. Like here’s what college athletics have become.” I feel like in many cases, kids are surprised, not in a good way. They’re given that opportunity to say, “Wouldn’t it be nice if that didn’t happen?” You go to college, and it does happen. It’s like, that takes, I think, an internally strong individual to be able to tolerate all of that.

That’s interesting to me, and maybe it’s the difference in someone my age versus. This is your area, younger kids is, again, I hear professional athletes talk about it, WNBA, whatever, about some of the real strong negativity that is on their social media feed. You never hear any of them considering stopping going on their social media. I understand especially a big part of that for college athletes and NIL is they’re compensated based on how much they post and that thing. What if you don’t look at your at replies? That’s not a world in which they’re willing to live. It’s almost like there’s all of the negativity exists there, but I’m still going to take a peek.

That’s the thing. I have colleagues and I who have like, “We’re off of X. We’re never looking at mentions again on X.” We might go in post something, but letting negativity be dropped at our doorstep. That months ago, something was sent to me on Twitter, and I read it to my husband, and he’s like, “Rebecca, would you allow that person into your living room?” I said, “No.” He said, “Why are you allowing them into your living room?” It was perfect. I was like, “I’m off, I’m done.” Younger people cannot, for whatever reason, avoid going to those sources and almost in some ways, seeking out feedback from people that don’t even matter in their lives.

The Mental Strength of Elite Athletes & Overcoming Setbacks

It is really interesting. I remember last year with Camp Spencer at UConn, he refused to be on social media. That became part of the interview every time someone approached the guy. It’s like, “Good for him.” He’s figured out like, I don’t need this. My life’s less complicated with it. I wish more kids would do that because I think, in all honesty, it would simplify things. Maybe that’s a good segue to talk about internal anxieties, because I think not only are athletes nowadays facing social media pressures, but they’re facing just general pressure. Here’s a huge question, but I’m curious about your thoughts. How would you say a star athlete in college these days is different from a star athlete in college when you were there?

I think the core of what they are is probably the same. There certainly was zero conversation about mental health when I was coming up. There were times in my career where I tore my knee a couple of times early on in my professional career. In hindsight, I was probably dipping into some areas of, I wouldn’t say depression, but just feeling really cruddy and not easily being able to crawl out of that. I didn’t know it because people weren’t talking about those. I do think that there’s a lot more attention given to athletes’ mental health now.

The conversation around it is good, obviously, but I also think some of the highest-level athletes are the ones who can focus and bust through all of the nonsense. As the pressure gets heavier, they still look unbothered and perform in that way. Not that there’s anything wrong with those who are going through the peaks and valleys, but I think you still find the tippy top of the athletes who have this incredible mental strength wherever it comes from, whether they’re born with it or they’ve trained it where they have a great ability to block out all of the noise and all of the tough times that they’re facing in that moment.

You had mentioned before we got on Diana and so many other great women that have come through the UConn program over the years. I got to imagine there are expectations. The next big player that comes through, everybody’s expecting that person to score X number of points and win X number of games. Sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn’t. I think in athletics, as I always say to my students that I work with, you’re bringing your brain with you on the court, on the field.

You’re either going to rise to the occasion, and your production is going to go up, or you’re going to have a hard time, and your production is going to go down. As a simple fan, I always felt for a basketball player, certainly in the waning moments of the game, when there’s a fall call, then you’re on the line. It’s like, “Rebecca, you’re going to either sink these or you’re not.” You’re smiling.

You’re going to sink.

You’ve been there. That’s right. It’s going to go one way or the other. The whole place is going to either cheer you on or come down on you. To me, it’s like, I don’t ever remember that amount of pressure when I was that age in college. I think college athletics has definitely taken off. As you said with the NILs, it’s next level now where there’s a lot of finances involved and good for athletes in my opinion that that’s happening, but does equate to a lot of pressure.

The UConn Program & Building Mental Toughness In Athletes

For sure. One of the things though, like Coach Auriemma, a lot of great players have come out of UConn, one of the best programs in the history of all women’s college basketball of all of sports. There’s no coincidence. People will say he gets some of the best players. Yes, but he also forges the best players and the strongest bodies and minds.

One of the ways he does that is put his players in sometimes impossible positions in practice, especially when they’re physically fatigued, because that’s when you start making poor decisions. Year after year after year, he would do that, and it’s hard on athletes. There are plenty of times I left practice, went back, and was crying and just feeling like I’d underperformed. Why is he yelling at me? Why is he so hard on me? I know there are a lot of athletes who have felt that way as well.

All of us, later on in our college career playing for him and then afterwards, just have a different level of mental fortitude that helps us get through the hard things in life. What’s interesting is the delicate balance of it for him because as a coach, you have to be demanding, and you have to expect really hard things from your players. You have to put them in situations where it’s hard physically, where it’s hard mentally, where it’s hard emotionally, so that you can help them become stronger in those moments. At the same time, do it in a way where it’s not any mental or emotional abuse.

That’s the wizardry of him.

Yes, 100%. It’s the fine line that he has been able to walk almost impeccably for the course of the last 40 years.

Just amazing. For those individuals that follow Yukon, it’s amazing how long that’s gone on for the length of time and the success that they’ve had. Rebecca, let’s do this. Let’s take off the athlete hat and put on the mom hat for a sec. You’ve got kids in college. You’ve got kids in high school. You’re around athletes often. You’re around, I’m sure, your kids’ friends often. These days, it’s hard being in high school. It’s hard being a young adult. I think it’s hard being in college. I guess I’m curious your viewpoint on, like, where do you see the large amount of stresses coming from for young people?

Parenting & The Role Of Pressure In Youth Sports

From their parents, of course.

We get the blame.

The expectations and plenty of people said that, but they have said this, but like the ones who ruin youth sports are the parents. It’s not the kids. Kids are out there. They’re trying to have fun and whatever the weight of expectation is from the sideline or the yelling at the referees or the yelling at the coaches. Oftentimes, you don’t often see kids, whether they’re youth sports all the way through high school or college, say yell at the coach or yell at the referee, their behavior tends to be good.

It’s the parents who’s not. I think you always have to take your kids’ lead. My oldest daughter, who’s a junior in college now, played basketball her freshman year in high school, got to tryouts for sophomore year, and a couple nights going to her room and she was just upset. She said, “I’m not enjoying this. I don’t want to do this.” I was shocked by that. It was a hard thing for me to say because I loved watching her play basketball.

It's often the parents, not the kids, causing problems in youth sports. You have to take your kid’s lead. Share on X

I thought she was 6 foot 3 inches and long and had all of this potential. I was like, “Don’t play basketball.” I think sometimes, for parents, it’s about us. I’m going to miss watching her play. That was a decision. I remember at the time thinking, “She’s going to regret this.” Mark, she has not regretted that decision for one second in her life. Probably, she had made it a year earlier, but that can be hard for us because we see the time that they put in when their kids to different sports, and we might see a potential there for something in the future.

She made it clear. She’s like, “I don’t want to play sports in college.” When she had told me that, I was like, it opened up a whole new world to me because I had never considered the possibility that there is a kid on earth who wouldn’t want to play sports in college because I want it so badly. Like, “What?” That’s informed how at least we parented her younger three siblings, too. It’s like always asking them, “Are you still having fun?”

Ultimately, this isn’t the means to an end. This is the end. Let’s enjoy the sport that we’re playing in the moment that we’re playing it without any expectation that it’s going to be something else in the future. Sometimes, for parents, it’s a really hard place to find yourself and to settle into. We still have to remind ourselves of that frequently, but it is the truth. Let them enjoy the moment as a parent enjoys the moment and not project what this is going to mean for them in terms of an athletic career down the road.

Well said. Great example. I can see. I can imagine that being really a challenge for you. I remember when my son who played baseball the way through stopped and it’s like, “We’re shifting.” I was coaching for a bit. I get it. It’s such a great time to spend. You cherish those memories, but they end. I love what you said, and I think it’s very true. Many parents, unfortunately, equate that path to happiness, like eventual happiness. When you ask your kid, “Are you happy?” You almost ignore their answer. If she looks at you or my son looks at me and says, “I’m not happy,” it’s our job to pivot and help them find other things.

Yes, as their parent, we have to think, is this a decision that they’re going to regret in the future? We also have to, if they tell us, “No, it’s not,” we have to listen and believe them. My whole thing, as long as everything you’re doing, you’re working hard in, and as long as you’re doing the right things as a person and as a student, whatever, I also have to trust that you’re doing the right things. Making this particular decision might be breaking my heart.

The Competitive College Admissions Process & Its Effects On Students

Look, just to shed some light. We live in a very competitive world. When we were at UConn, the amount of applications they would get annually was 15 or 18,000 applications. They were at 58,000 applications this past year. That’s the world we live in where there’s just so much more competition, which makes it even harder for kids to even get into a college or a university. I think that that’s a delicate balance with a parent of like pushing your kid but pushing them in a way that we know that they’re enjoying and there’s some happiness involved.

One of the interesting things with the college application process, when our kids were maybe early on in their high school career, our oldest, and we asked a friend, “Where have your daughters applied to school?” They immediately said, “We’re not telling anyone where our kids have applied because it’s gotten so competitive. Their friends are always asking, “Where did you apply? Did you get in here?” The parents are asking these things too. I remember thinking, “Really? That’s a thing.”

We tried with our kids, like, their tour in college and have very different interests and where they wanted to go, “Which schools are you interested in?” It wasn’t like Ivy League or bust like, where are you going to be happy? Part of that, I think, is informed by my own experience. I could have gone and played basketball at Stanford or Notre Dame or Virginia or whatever. My parents, as teachers and educators in Connecticut, didn’t want me going to UConn.

UConn’s a safety school. Why would you turn down an opportunity to go to an elite academic institution? I know I got an incredible education. I trust that my kids are going to get out of it, whatever they put into it, wherever they end up going, as long as those reasons aren’t, “Maybe I’ll be able to make this team or that team.” No, go to the school that’s going to be the best fit for you. I have to trust that you are going to get a great education out of it.

I was shocked when those parents said it has become such a high-pressure environment for kids applying to schools. Tons of pressure coming from their classmates, tons of pressure coming from other people’s parents, or maybe it’s their own parents, I don’t know. I certainly didn’t want that to become the narrative for my kids when they were trying to decide where they wanted to spend the first four years out of our home.

Good for you for being aware of it. I think there’s a degree as parents that we can control, and there’s clearly part outside of us in terms of social media world we cannot control. To our point from earlier, kids can make those decisions to say, “I’m going to take a three-month hiatus from all social media because that’s just going to be pressure.” I’m going to hear about all of the early decisions and all the kids going doing this and all the kids doing that.

I may be that kid who hasn’t heard back from my colleges. I see that as a therapist every year, which is a tough place, I think, for a young kid to be. We, as parents, we catch the brunt of some of the reasons why kids have lots of anxiety. Let me ask you this. Kids on campus, again, I feel like that environment has changed in some ways dramatically. There’s an intensity, I think, to classes and grades and whatever’s next.

I laugh sometimes that my daughter, who’s finished school, was a freshman. She was a freshman, Rebecca, in her first semester of college. She had a professor come in, and they were talking about grad school. I was like, “You’ve got to be kidding me.” As a freshman, I’m learning at a time like she was like, this kid is just come on, like, just give him a chance. That’s always the mentality of what’s next versus, like, let’s enjoy what’s right in front of us. I’m curious about your thoughts on this because, as a therapist, I see the statistics, unfortunately, moving in all of the wrong directions. The suicide rate is up, which is terrifying to everybody.

Second leading cause of death in this age bracket. Ten years ago, is number twelve, just to give you a reference. Anxiety is way up. Certainly, since COVID, both anxiety and depression are statistically way up. Now, really the majority of kids in college environments are suffering with something. They’ve got something going on. I guess I’m curious, like in the world of parenting, like we’re offsite in some ways at that point. We’re home, they’re at school. What are some of the things kids are dealing with that might be contributing to that at school from your point of view?

How Parents Can Support Their Kids’ Mental Health

I don’t know. I would imagine, and there’s probably plenty of documentation about the effects of social media on all of this. It always blew me away. Our kids, they got their phones once they graduated eighth grade because there was really no time before that that they needed a phone. We were driving them everywhere. their coaches always communicated to the parents.

It wasn’t through the kids. I was always surprised at how few of my kids’ friends were in the same boat. Our kids knew the rule. Once they got the phone, responsibility, meet friends the old fashioned way at high school, then you can get some social media. Hopefully, that was an appropriate timeframe and plan for them. I can only speak to the experience of my own kids. I know that, like my children, who might have some anxiety, we’re born with it.

They come by honestly because I’ve got children who have it, and I have children who don’t. It’s hard sometimes as a parent because I’m not an anxious person. I’ve never been a super anxious person. I’ve even had conversations with one of my kids where she’s worked up and talking to me about things. My response is, you cannot worry about things that might not happen. She’ll say to me, “Mom, that’s the definition of anxiety.”

Yeah, it is.

I’m like, “How can I be a better mother to you? I’m here to listen to you.” There any strategies I can help with, like this is one in college? How can I help you? I cannot. This isn’t part of my fabric. What can I do to help you with this? I didn’t grow up an anxious kid. It’s hard to relate. It’s hard to know what contributes to things, those anxieties.

It’s very much a helpless feeling as a parent because when your kid comes to you and they’re sick, you’re like, “I’ve got this medicine for you. That’s sore. Let me look at it. I think I can diagnose that.” When they come to you with something like this, it’s the worst helpless feeling in the world as a parent because you’re like, what do I do? All I want to be able to do is help my child get through this moment or moments. You feel so helpless with it. Thankfully, we have people like you who can share their advice with the world.

When kids come to you with anxiety issues, it's the worst helpless feeling in the world as a parent because you don’t know what to do. Share on X

I’m thankful that you went through that example because, honestly, I think a lot of parents are in those shoes. I do. I think a lot of parents come at this from either the perspective that they have no history of anxiety or depression. If they did, it wasn’t called that when we were kids. It wasn’t labeled, it wasn’t diagnosed, it wasn’t even treated.

Much of this, I think, for the parents that are out there nowadays, it’s the next generation. Kids, thankfully, are getting help some, which is great. It leads me into the topic of wellness because I think wellness is one of those areas that means lots of different things to lots of different people. Wellness includes ways to reduce stress and reduce anxiety. One of the biggest things I talk to my students about that are at school is how are you doing with sleep habits?

How are you doing with eating habits? How are you doing with exercise? Hardly ever do I have a kid who’s doing all three well. Usually, they’re focused on one, and they’re getting good rest but just eating terribly and not getting a lot of physical activity. Wellness, to me, is one of those cornerstones that really anchors people, not just kids, but people in terms of mental health. What does wellness mean to you, Rebecca?

The Importance Of Wellness: Sleep, Exercise & Mental Health

It’s interesting because when you talk about those three things, those are three things that are staples for every high-performing athlete’s life. You’re getting your exercise sleep, especially in the last decade has become paramount for high level athletes. They understand when they monitor their sleep, they understand how important it is to get enough sleep. The diet portion of it has become a huge conversation. I think like that’s one of the things that’s always been a part for me. Even sometimes if my kids are feeling a certain way, it’s like, “Do you notice do you feel better when you exercise? If you do, let’s make it a priority for you to find time to exercise.” Sometimes like especially in the meat of my busiest times of year, whether that’s March men or WNBA playoffs, if I say something like, “I wish I had time to X, Y, or Z. I wish I had time to read.” My husband will look at me and say, “Make time. You make time for the things that are important to you.” I think that’s probably a lesson to try to teach kids is, when do you feel best, what are the things that you do that make you feel best, and prioritize making time for those things?

I like that. Steve is wise.

Yes, he is.

He’s one of my suggestions. I like that. It’s a great concept because I think both for kids and adults, we use those excuses of I cannot possibly do that out of the time. Some of those things, like exercise in particular, is vital. It’s really vital to those individuals who have anxiety to get through the day and feel balanced. A good suggestion. I really appreciate it.

Someone should do a study on marathon runners. I would bet many of them have some level of anxiety, and that’s how they started dealing with it. It’s an interesting point. I’m just thinking, as you said, that over the years, I’ve definitely treated many. It is a go-to for a lot of people. An exercise on any level, as long as you’re moving, I think exercise on any level is just simply good for us.

As we get older, it becomes really critical because it is the difference between stagnation and really developing health issues versus not. I think kids look at it maybe differently than adults do, but we all need it. Certainly, something we all need. That’s for sure. You referenced it before. I know your schedule is super busy, so I appreciate you making the time to come on to the show. Those of you who don’t know, this is actually part two because we had an interview several years ago before this show even started. You were kind enough to give me some time.

That was a lot of years ago.

It was a while ago. You’re always so much fun to talk to and interview. I think you have some great insights. Again, so much has changed, I think, with the landscape of athletics these days. I think you offer a really great perspective on both having been an athlete and now being around them and watching them all the time. Again, thanks for your time. Thank you for making the time. I have one last question for you. Can I put you on the spot?

Sure.

Passing The Torch For The Next Interview

One of the things I do with the show is I ask for people coming on to nominate a friend, a coworker, a relative, really to keep the conversation moving forward. Didn’t know if you had anybody in your world whom you thought would be good for me to interview next. What do you think?

I don’t know. This person is much busier than I am, but perhaps one of the members of the UConn coaching staff would be good to talk to. Morgan Valley is an assistant coach there who played who has young kids of her own that she’s raising. She might be one that would be good to talk to.

I would love it. You guys heard it here. Rebecca’s calling you out. We’ll get them on the show and definitely get their perspective. I would love to hear from them. Thank you again. I appreciate all your time and energy, and good luck to all of the teams as we approach March Madness, coming soon.

Thank you.

Thank you, Rebecca. Take care.

Important Links

About Rebecca Lobo

Rebecca Lobo is a basketball icon, broadcaster, and advocate for mental wellness. She was a standout at the University of Connecticut, she led the Huskies to their first national championship in 1995 and was named the NCAA Final Four’s Most Outstanding Player. She went on to play professionally in the WNBA, becoming one of the league’s original stars with the New York Liberty.

Following her playing career, Rebecca transitioned into broadcasting, becoming a respected analyst for ESPN, where she provides insightful commentary on women’s college and professional basketball. Beyond sports, she has been a vocal advocate for education, wellness, and the power of perseverance. Today, she joins Normalize It Forward to discuss mental resilience, the pressures of high-level athletics, and the importance of prioritizing well-being.

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Brittany Snitzer | Self-Love

Focusing More On Self-Love With Brittany Snitzer

April 15, 2025March 28, 2025

It is easy to get addicted to comparing yourself to others, and this mindset makes you feel insecure and incomplete. Instead of spending so much time looking at other people, why not focus more on self-love instead? Marc Lehman chats with Brittany Snitzer, a talented and innovative professional in the makeup industry, who explains how to let your authentic self shine at all times. She discusses the importance of surrounding yourself with people who fill your cup and let go of those draining it up. Brittany also explains how to escape the toxicity of social media platforms and turn them into spaces of positivity and belongingness.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Focusing More On Self-Love With Brittany Snitzer

We are here to talk about mental health and wellness. I’m super excited to welcome Brittany Snitzer. Welcome, Brittany, to the show. Brittany is a talented and innovative professional in the makeup industry, known for her expertise in creating flawless trend-setting looks, with a passion for enhancing natural beauty and a meticulous eye for detail.

Brittany has built a reputation as a go-to artist for a wide range of clients, from individuals to high-profile events and photoshoots. Her ability to adapt to diverse styles and stay ahead of industry trends sets her apart, making her a sought-after name in the beauty world. Brittany, thank you so much for making the time to join us. Welcome.

Thank you for having me, Marc. I’m so excited to be here and discuss all topics related to mental health.

Brittany And Gal On The Go

Let me first ask. I love the name Gal on the Go. Can we jump into that and tell us what that is?

Thanks. I started my business in 2015. I was injured and not in the best mental place when I started my business. I was divorcing and working in a salon because I’m also a hairdresser. I couldn’t work because I had a back injury. Starting my business at such a low point, I needed to find something to do where my back and mental health would still be thriving. During my divorce, my clients started looking for me on social media, the beauty of social media.

One day, a client said, “I have something. Would you mind coming over to do my hair?” I was like, “Let me go try.” I was on six months of bed rest with a herniated disc and 4, 5, and 6. I was also medicated and not in a good place. Thankfully, my clients kept calling me. One tells one. An entire business was built on word of mouth. My mental health started to improve. My back started to feel better. I was looking for a name that was catchy and cute. I didn’t want to be just “girl on the go.” I needed a little more pizzazz. I thought, “Let me be Gal on the Go.” Years later, I’m still Gal on the Go.

What a cool story. First of all, how’s your back now?

It’s good. Thank you. I always try to be mindful of my injuries and everything that comes with that. I do a lot of yoga and Pilates to stay on my game.

Less Self-Comparison And More Self-Love

As you might guess, I don’t know a ton about the beauty industry, but I treat a lot of individuals with eating disorders. I wanted to chat with you about that. Many of our audiences are young adults, and some are young. They’re on social media and exposed to so much. I wanted to bring the topic up and ask your thoughts on that associated with wellness.

I shared before that I struggled with an eating disorder at 12 or 13 years old. I was diagnosed with bulimia and anorexia. I was hospitalized that same year at the Children’s Hospital in Montreal. I stand proudly in saying that I’m in recovery and will continue to stay in recovery, but it’s lifelong. Every day is a struggle. Dealing with anorexia, bulimia, or any eating disorder plays a big part in your mind. As we say in therapy, your mind often micro-focuses on things that might not even exist.

Anorexia and bulimia have touched my life a lot because they dictated why I’m in the beauty industry. It’s ironic because I chose a field that makes others feel good. I take a lot of pride in that. My clients and the people I speak to know that. Life as a woman is difficult. Add a bit of anxiety. You want to be this person in your head, but it doesn’t always work like that. It becomes very challenging.

Even as a young girl, I was always an achiever. I wanted to succeed the best, be the best, and have the best. That played a lot in my head. Eating disorders and the beauty industry have a lot in common because when you go online and look at social media, that’s what young girls see, the very thin, the very tall, or the more voluptuous. There are so many things in your face on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok about women’s beauty, and young girls gravitate toward that.

Even my young clients, I try to talk to them and say, “No matter what size you are, what color you are, or how you feel that day, you have to stay focused on what you have in front of you and not what you want to go out and do to yourself or play in your mind what you’re not good at or good for or not enough.” The talk about “not enough” is a lot, I find.

That part is a mindset, wanting what you don’t have. When you do have it, you want something else.

You’re still not happy. That’s a lot I find for women. Even women my age, who are at a pinnacle point and who are successful and beautiful, can’t seem to see that. They’ve done work and this, that, and the other. They’re still not happy with themselves. As a therapist and being in recovery, we talk a lot about loving ourselves but really loving yourself. What does that look like?

I’m glad you brought that up because so many of our audience. I think you’re speaking to our young and many of them. Let’s talk about that. What does it mean to love yourself? What does that look like to you?

Just because you are rich and famous does not necessarily mean you are okay inside. Share on X

The first thing is to accept who you are. The acceptance of, “Maybe I’m never going to be good enough for this person, that person, this parent, or grandparent, or that cousin,” or whatever the case is. “I’m good for bread. I’m doing good just for bread.” What does that mean for bread? It means, if I wake up and I’m having a bad day, how can I get out of my head to feel better? What do I need to do?

May that be meditating, working out, eating a healthy meal, talking to my therapist or my friends, taking a walk, being with my dog, and all those things. It’s self-acceptance and knowing, “I didn’t do X, Y, and Z today, but that doesn’t mean I’m a bad person. I didn’t post enough today. I got into a fight with my boyfriend, but that doesn’t mean I don’t love myself.”

I think asking that basic question. When you talk about acceptance, it’s so simple but so overlooked. I ask it all the time in therapy, “Are you happy?”

What does happiness mean?

It’s a good question.

I go back and forth, like, “What is it going to do to make me happy? Is it going to be buying a bag or helping somebody when they’re feeling like crap? What does that equate to?” A lot of people in my industry struggle with, “We could have everything in the world like collaboration deals, nice makeup, pretty face, and nice outings, but does that mean you’re happy?”

I would argue that it is not. A lot of individuals who seemingly have all of the material things oftentimes aren’t happy.

Most of the time, I meet and talk to my clients and people I come in contact with in the media. Just because you’re rich and famous and this and that and have Botox and filler doesn’t necessarily mean you’re okay inside. That was a bigger conversation.

Getting In Touch With Your Inner Child

It brings up the next thought of, “How do you get okay inside?” You and I have lived many more years than teenage kids. They’re figuring out how to be a young adult. We’ve tripped and fallen. We’ve done things that have allowed us to figure that part out. Let me ask you a question. When you think about what are some of the things you’ve done over the years that have made you, Brittany, a happier person?

It’s getting in touch with my inner child, and what about that? I wasn’t happy with it or didn’t fulfill or suffice my needs of not being good enough. I grew up with privilege. My parents were very accommodating. I went to private school, lived in a nice home, and all this and that. Sometimes, it goes beyond all those things. You remove the material things and then ask yourself what was lacking, “What didn’t I have,” besides materialistic. For me, it was a lot of going deep. I’ve been in a recovery program a few times already. I’ve had to work out why I choose certain people in my life or why I want to be like this person when I don’t want to be like this person. Why am I getting heavily influenced by people who don’t live in my shoes?

Great point. Great question. It happens all the time. If you think about how these devices train us, we’re constantly barraged with all of these images. It feels to me like when I look at Instagram or Facebook, the images women are bombarded with are an example of what you’re talking about, which is that they’re seeking something that they’ll never get to. They can never truly feel good about who they are because they’re always running towards something.

If you are putting out a positive image on social media, you will get back a positive image. Share on X

What are you running towards? What is the goal?

When I think about happiness, certain things bring me happiness. I’m sure certain things bring you happiness. One of those things is feeling mentally well.

Waking up and not feeling anxiety in the pit of my stomach, breathing in the good air, hugging my cute little dog, and knowing that I’m loved are things that I’m able to say, “I love myself,” and loving people around me openly without conditions.

A lot goes into that. I want to break that down a bit because it’s important for young people to understand this. You don’t get to be mentally positive or well-placed without a lot of work. The work sometimes is therapy, or joining a yoga class or a meditation class. The bottom line is making some time for yourself to take care of yourself. I find so many people don’t.

It’s easy to distract yourself by the noise, may it be substance, nightlife, or people who don’t want the best for you. If you surround yourself with things that can cloud your image of mental clarity, then you’re always going to stay stuck. You have to ask yourself, “What do I need to feel mentally clear?” For me, that’s staying away from substances and not going to bed past midnight. For me, that means eating healthy, taking nature walks, or talking to my friends who are there for me. Also, my clients and giving back to the community.

Surrounding Yourself With The Right People

You touched on a few things, but I want to pick up on one in particular. You mentioned having healthy people around you. It’s huge. I find that young people, a lot of times, will convince themselves that the people around them are healthy, love them, and care about them.

We have our rose-colored goggles on a lot. I’ve done it many times. You romanticize and fantasize about the people that you’re dating or the people that are around you. “Okay, whatever. This comment this.” No. We have to set in check and boundaries about the people who want the best for us. That may not be a ton of people. It might be just one. You eliminate a lot of the negative distractions and hyper-focus on what’s going to keep the peace in your brain. That’s when it clicks. That’s when it clicked for me, to be honest. Who’s feeding my soul and draining my soul?

We all have things that pop up in life. I work with so many college kids. Unfortunately, sometimes things pop up, like a death in the family or someone they love. They take a little bit of time away from school. I’m always curious when they get back who visits them first. It’s usually their true friends, the ones that care about them. “Brittany’s gone for 2, 3, 4 days or 1 week.” Someone’s texting you. Someone cares that you’re not there. As opposed to the other kids that you think are your friends and didn’t even notice you were gone.

You couldn’t have said it better. I have traveled around the world for work. In 2024, I’ve done a lot of traveling. It’s interesting to see who’s checking up on me or who is in my corner to know, “Did you arrive? Are you okay? Did you eat today?” It’s things like this. You’re saying something that resonates well with me because that’s a good indicator of who wants the very best for you. Sometimes, as hard as it is, you have to set your boundaries and remove yourself in silence. It doesn’t always have to be loud and proud. You can back away from people that you feel are in the pit of your stomach and don’t have the right intention.

That’s a good way of saying it. Don’t have the right intention. I like that.

Some people want to be around for the wrong reasons. That leaves you with a bit of a black cloud. You’ll know and feel when you’re not in the right space.

Putting Out A Positive Image On Social Media

Brittany, let’s talk a little bit about social media because it is such a fascinating topic. I’ve been to so many conferences where they talk about it as evil and blame all of the mental health in the community on social media.

I think it’s a blessing.

There’s an up and a downside. I want to talk to you about both. In your industry, I would imagine it plays a role.

To be honest with you, I’ve been very successful with social media. This is how I produce content. People can see my work. I can connect with other artists. I’ve gotten a lot of collaboration deals out of social media. I feel that if you portray the right image, you don’t have to share your whole life. You share what you want to share, you’ll be judged for that, and so on, but at the end of the day, you control what’s here.

It’s a control mechanism like anything else. If you’re putting up a positive image, you’re going to get back a positive image. I’ve had many negative comments. That is normal, but the majority of this has been positive. I guess it depends on how you’re using your media. Are you using it in a positive business form, or are you dilly-dallying and creating things in your head?

I’ve spoken to many women. They have had to close their Instagram to deal with anxiety. They can’t watch a makeup video, a girl in a bathing suit, or something about Kim Kardashian. In my experience, it’s been positive. You also have to understand how to market and that Instagram is a business. As a business owner, you have to think of it as a business. It’s not that serious.

I like what you said, too, about boundaries. Not sharing your entire world is important. You and I both use it very similarly in terms of our business. It’s a great way to reach lots of individuals you wouldn’t be able to reach otherwise. For young people, it can be anxiety provoking. I watch young kids regularly go through this, especially with colleges.

Kids are being bullied a lot online or body shaming.

I want to highlight something you said, and it’s important to repeat. We have control over that. If a young person is viewing social media a lot, which many do, you don’t have to. You can turn your phone off, put some limits on it, set some boundaries, and take a break from it, which is mentally healthy to do. There are lots of benefits for it. It reminds me of a swimming pool. It can be a lot of fun, but we have to respect that it can also be hazardous. Be mindful of it.

You choose who to follow online and which content to see. It is in your discretion to put everything in moderation. Share on X

It’s also easy to get caught up. You’re scrolling. You’re on your page. It’s almost like a rabbit hole. I try as much as I can to do my content, post it out there, and look at a few things, but you can also choose who you follow. You don’t have to be public like me or you. You can choose your content. You can also put barriers. Everything is in moderation. It’s at your discretion.

Staying True And Offering A Lending Hand

Brittany, let me ask you this. It’s a big question. It sounds like many of us went through ups and downs as young people. If you had an opportunity to speak to your thirteen-year-old yourself, what advice would you give?

I would say to myself, “It’s not my fault. You’re doing the best you can for you. Keep shining and continue to thrive.”

One of the hardest parts of my job is that the depression and anxiety rates are through the roof. The suicide rates are as well. Every once in a while, and unfortunately, it’s becoming more frequent, I will hear a story. It’s a story of someone who took their life. I always think the same thing. It’s a horrible tragedy, but their life is just beginning. There’s so much more that’s going to happen for them. I love what you said. For young people reading, please hear those words. You’re not alone. There are plenty of people out there who are willing to listen, help, and assist. Guess what? If you hold your breath, things are going to shift and change every ten minutes. Twelve years old, 13 years old, 15 years old, and 18 years old, it’s all different age brackets.

A few years ago, I got this tattoo on my wrist. It’s the semicolon. A few years ago, I was not in a good place. My mental health was poor. I admitted myself to the hospital. I was very close to not making it. It’s important for everyone to realize that you don’t need to be young or old, but you also have to realize that if you’re having a mental health crisis, there are places and people who you can go to. They don’t have to be your family because most of the time, your family doesn’t know what to do and can’t help themselves either. I want to say that you’re never alone in the world.

I appreciate you sharing that. I always tell young people that when you find yourself in a lonely position, you have to find somebody and reach out.

That means checking yourself in.

Somewhere, anywhere. It’s being by yourself. That’s the most destructive place to be when you’re feeling that way. I’m happy you did that.

They say that life is a journey. Our journeys are continuing. Young people’s journeys are just beginning in many ways. I always feel honored when someone allows me into their world for a moment to hear about their journey. I know that if I run into that person 2, 3, or 4 years later, there will be twists and turns. That’s part of life. Now is a tough time for young people and adults. It puts a lot of pressure on us to take care of ourselves better. We have to get through this because we want to get to the good stuff.

Life is hard. It is not easy for everybody. I see and talk to many people a day because of my profession. You’re a therapist, and I’m a therapist too, in my own right, without the degree. Someone’s sitting in your chair. They’re trusting you to make them feel good, and they get to talking to you. I have clients who are high profile and no profile. They say the same things to me.

It is easy to talk about your inner battles. But at a certain point, you will have enough and must take a break. Share on X

That’s so important because I feel like when I talk to kids and they talk about the Kim Kardashians of the world or other famous people, there’s this illusion that they’re not human beings.

They’re human. We’re all human.

Their lives are so vastly different. Sure, maybe there’s more money.

Their lives are harder than we think.

I always say to people that it’s always the same whenever I’ve worked with a celebrity or famous individual. Everybody is a human being. We’re all susceptible.

They have an even harder time. I work in the media as well. They have to have thick skin because they’re being spoken about and ripped apart. Their relationships and lives are online. If they’re fat, skinny, green, or purple, it’s out there. They put themselves out there, so their mental health rates. If we look at some of the celebrities that have passed away, how much struggle have they been through? Nobody wanted to help them, right? They couldn’t get the help they needed. They have all the resources in the world.

It’s important. We do hear about that in the public eye. All the more reason. One of the biggest reasons I created this show is to talk about mental health and normalize the conversation. Let’s have a conversation and ask the right questions. Let’s be there for others if we can. Let’s be kind. Let’s realize that sometimes, when people appear like they’re not struggling, they are.

It’s funny you say that because I’m always pretty authentic. I explain who I am. Clients, my friends, and people online know that I have struggles. I work with I Love Tyler Madison brands. I try to do as much outreach as I can. You don’t know what’s happening in someone’s home and head. You could look perfect, filtered, hair done and makeup on, but you don’t know what’s happening. You don’t know what is going on in someone’s brain. It’s the appearance.

The mask they’re wearing.

We all wear one.

Keep that in mind and realize that it’s a choice. We can be kind to other people. We can recognize that maybe people are going through it more than we know. We can always lend a hand and an ear and listen to people if we need to. You used the word authentic. You’re super authentic. I appreciate your ability to put yourself out there and talk about hard things. I do think it’ll resonate with my audience. Guess what? They’re dealing with stuff, too. I feel like when we give that message that we’re all dealing with stuff, it doesn’t push people off into that stigma corner. It’s like, “It’s okay to be dealing with stuff. You got to be dealing with it and working on it.”

You have to do the work. That’s the hardest part. It’s easy to talk about it and keep talking about it, but at a certain point, you have to be like, “Enough is enough. I want to feel good and strong now. I want to feel mentally okay. What does that mean? What do I need to do to wake up in the morning and not feel like I’m going to crawl into a ball and cry?”

That’s where therapy comes in. You get a good therapist. They’re going to direct and tell you. They’re going to warn you. They’re going to tell you, “This is going to be a little bit of work.”

A lot of work. You have to dig deep. It goes back a long time for many, including myself.

Brittany’s Nominee For Next Guest

I appreciate your time. Part of the show is that I want the conversation to continue. I often ask my guests to nominate a friend, a coworker, or a relative. If you have one, I’ll put you on the spot, but I’m curious. Any thoughts in terms of somebody you know who might be a good person for me to interview?

Yes, I do. She’s a good friend of mine. She’s a client. She’s also a content creator and actress. Her name is Esther Brzezinski. She would be good for your show as well. She’ll give a different perspective to your audience.

I appreciate it. I’ll get her info from you offline, reach out, and get Esther on the show sometime soon. Thank you so much. I know you’re super busy. I appreciate you being here. Have a wonderful day. We’ll talk at some point. Take care.

Thank you for having me.

You’re very welcome. Take care.

Important Links

About Brittany Snitzer

Brittany Snitzer is a talented and innovative professional in the makeup industry, known for her expertise in creating flawless, trend-setting looks. With a passion for enhancing natural beauty and a meticulous eye for detail, Britney has built a reputation as a go-to artist for a wide range of clients, from individuals to high-profile events and photoshoots. Her ability to adapt to diverse styles and stay ahead of industry trends sets her apart, making her a sought-after name in the beauty world.

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Jacqueline Harris | Fashion

Improve Your Wellness Through Fashion With Jacqueline Harris

April 1, 2025March 28, 2025

What you wear and how you show up has a direct impact on your personal wellness. Mental health advocate Jacqueline Harris is here to discuss how to use fashion to elevate your well-being and cultivate body positivity. Combining her fashion expertise with her psychology background, she talks about practical approaches to achieving self-acceptance, building self-confidence, and dealing with eating disorders. Jacqueline also discusses how to talk freely about suicide and why taking the easy route in life is not always the way to go.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Improve Your Wellness Through Fashion With Jacqueline Harris

I’m so excited to meet Jacqueline Harris. Jacqueline, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

You’re very welcome. Jacqueline brings over twenty years of experience in fashion, running ILoveTylerMadison.com. Alongside fashion, she’s got a Master’s degree in Counseling Psychology, works as a designer, and is an advocate for mental health. Her journey through recovery from an eating disorder inspired her to create a fashion line that promotes both style and self-acceptance.

Recognizing that feeling comfortable and confident in one’s own skin can be a challenge, Jacqueline is passionate about making clothes that serve as a bridge between fashion and well-being. With a deep understanding of the importance of body positivity, she creates pieces that empower people to feel good inside and out. Jacqueline, welcome. How are you?

Thank you. I love the intro. I was like, “Yes,” to all that.

It’s so funny when I read intros. People are embarrassed or don’t know what to say.

I love it. I’m like, “Tell me more about what I do.”

From Counseling Psychology To The World Of Fashion

I’m thrilled to have you here. Your background and experience are very unique with a counseling psych background and a fashion background. I know, as my wife would attest, very little about fashion, but I certainly understand body image and mental health and wellness tremendously. As a therapist, I do have a subspecialty in eating disorders, so I’ve worked with a lot of both male and female patients over the years on various treatment levels around this topic. Let’s jump in. I want to pick your brain on some of these topics and get your viewpoint. As I’m reading your intro, I’m thinking, “That’s an interesting path.” What led you down the road as you got a counseling psych degree toward fashion?

I was always interested in psychology, but I ended up going back to school much later on in life. I was working in fashion before when all my friends were in university. It’s interesting. The company is named after our rescue dogs, Tyler and Madison. Years ago, it was my sister and me. Tyler was her dog. Madison was my dog. We wanted to create a line that was more than fashion. That’s where the altruistic side came in. We donate a portion of all sales to various animal charities.

We believe that helping others, and for us, it’s animals, gives you a sense of purpose. It takes you outside your negative head space. As we got older and evolved, and then became mothers, that’s when we started focusing more on the mental health side. We’re not ignoring the animals. We still do that. That’s when we started our mental health platform and wanted to normalize not being okay. We realized people don’t talk about it enough. That’s when I went back to school, did my undergrad, and then got my Master’s. That’s how the journey started.

I knew a bit about that last part. That honestly was what attracted me to reach out. I want to know more. Tell me more about your mental health platform. Can you give us a sense of that?

Sure. It’s on our website. We wanted to normalize not being okay. How it started was someone at the office, or maybe it was possibly me opening up about recovering from an eating disorder. Another person or another woman mentioned, “I had an eating disorder too. This was my journey.” Another woman also talked about it.

This is the first time that it happened to me as an adult in an open conversation with other individuals that you don’t know that well. They’re colleagues. To dive into something so personal was such a wonderful experience and made you feel less alone. It’s so isolating having an eating disorder. It was the most wonderful feeling.

It started so organically, saying, “We should do something about this and maybe offer tools or resources or even start posting not stories.” The first one was about a customer’s struggle with alcoholism. It wasn’t even related to eating disorders. It was to let people know that there are women in their 40s struggling with a drinking problem. That’s how it started.

I read that. I encourage everybody who’s tuning in to go to your website and read the letters you have on there. I was reading yours about birthdays as well.

I turned 42.

Happy birthday.

Thank you.

There’s so much to those, but one of the takeaways is they’re so honest. We live in a world where it’s hard to be honest about our mental health. Statistically speaking, the reality is anxiety is through the roof, depression is through the roof, and eating disorders are through the roof. People are struggling. I love that you guys took that leap of faith with each other in the office. I’m guessing it created a cool culture of connection.

That’s what I always say. The opposite of addiction is connection. It’s so isolating. You feel so alone. That’s why we wanted to normalize it. We’ve had two events. We had a workshop at a yoga studio. They were small and intimate. We talked about mental health and did some breathing techniques. We would love to be able to have group therapies once a week or even once a month. That’s the goal, to offer more resources to people, but for now, it’s the articles and tools online.

The opposite of addiction is connection. Share on X

There’s another company I’ve worked with in the past, a men’s company that has a line of fitness clothing. They do something very similar for men. They open up their stores periodically. They have these men’s mental fitness and mental health talks. It’s something very similar to what you’re discussing. I feel they are so needed. It’s such a cool opportunity. It’s not a therapist’s office. It’s not a hospital setting. For some, these are intimidating areas. It is for people to recognize, “The general public is dealing with this. It’s coming up a lot for people.”

The Toxic Side Of Social Media

Honestly, one of the reasons I developed this show is that I work with many young adults. The population that I see is mostly high school and college-aged students. I have a virtual private practice. We see students all over the country when they’re away from home. One of the things that we see often is students who haven’t been diagnosed but have symptoms.

In many ways, it puts pressure on the adults older than them to be able to role model this concept that not only is it okay to not be okay, but it’s okay to talk about it. Some people will hug you and join you. There are people you are shoulder-to-shoulder with in your part-time job that you have no idea are struggling.

I do know more from working with that generation. I feel terribly for teenagers. Social media can be toxic, but then it could also connect you and bring you together. Those are ways in which you could see other people struggling if they do share their stories, but I would assume, more likely than not, people are posting their best selves. That’s what makes it hard too.

Social media can be so toxic, but it can also connect and bring people together. Share on X

I’m glad you said that. There are positives and negatives to it. Some of the negatives are upsetting to see, whether it be young people having popularity contests in many ways. I’ve seen young people post pictures with huge smiles on their faces, and they’re doing God knows what, and then I’ll see them that afternoon and they’re crying in my office. I try to get young people to understand regularly, “What you’re seeing is not real. What you’re seeing is a version of what that person wants you to see.” More importantly, it impacts us when we’re viewing that.

We’re trying to do a Mental Health Monday on the last Monday of every month. The tagline that I saw online and reused was, “I hope your life on social media is as amazing as you pretend it is to be,” or something. It’s worded better. That’s so true. More often than not, someone’s having the worst day, a big fight with their partner, or whatever it may be, and they post the opposite. It makes them feel better in some strange, for me, unrelatable way, because I didn’t grow up in the social media culture. Your life should be so private and everything has become so public and fake.

In the mental health realm or the wellness realm, you hit the nail on the head. You and I have referenced the point of life before social media. Teenagers, when you talk to them, eighteen, nineteen, twenty-year-old kids, don’t have that reference. It is tricky, and it does seem very real. For them, it influences them tremendously.

How Fashion Impact A Person’s Wellness

Social media is a huge factor. There is no doubt about it. Wellness is made up of so many different levels. Fashion, to me, is one of those levels. How a person feels in the clothes they wear determines a lot. You touched on it before, but where do those two topics collide for you in terms of outfits, fashion, and then also a person’s wellness?

Personally for myself, having my weight fluctuate my whole life, when you’re struggling, whether it’s an eating disorder, depression, anxiety, or everything that comes with it, as trivial as it seems when you have to get up and go to school, go to work, or function, when you don’t feel good in your clothes, it’s another added layer that you don’t need on top of trying to survive.

That’s where my sister and I started the line. It was skirts, shorts, and pants. Everything was pull-on. It was years ago. The Lululemon craze started and people were wearing leggings. They weren’t very appropriate to wear other than the gym. I found it strange that people would go to dinner in leggings. We took that concept, which is popular in maternity and for older women, as a pull-on panty. It’s very popular.

We said, “Let’s make all of our pants like trousers with pockets and a fake button, but let’s make everything pull-on so you feel comfortable.” There’s the top button challenge. If you’re sitting in your jeans and your stomach is rolling over and the clothes are rolling down it, it’s so uncomfortable. That’s how it started. We were like, “Let’s make flattering, stylish pants that are comfortable so when you put them on, you feel good.”

Talking Freely About Suicide

I was thinking as you were talking about leggings, “Things have changed a lot in ten years.” Comfort is huge. And physical comfort and mental comfort collide right inside of us. You said it best that we take that with us every day, whatever we’re doing. That’s important. Tell me. I’m curious. Your staff sounds like a healthy bunch of people who share and connect. I’m wondering. In terms of viewpoint, I’m assuming your staff, age bracket-wise, are in their 50s.

It’s 35 to 50.

I imagine everybody has a little bit of a different viewpoint on mental health and wellness with some overlap.

We’re pretty aligned talking about it. We also come to be of that age, especially some few other colleagues around my age. It’s strange. In our culture, it is common that you are more avoidant. You don’t talk about your personal issues. It was very private if you were going to therapy. It is strange for all of us to come out there and so openly talk about it, but we feel that there’s a need that we’d have to normalize it.

As a side note, there were quite a few suicides in Montreal around individuals our age. That was shocking to all of us, whether we knew of them or some knew them personally, to think you don’t know anyone and they suffered in silence. That also got the ball rolling about like, “Forget it. Forget my shame. I want to talk about this if it could help one person know that they’re not alone.”

What an immense statement. You’re right. The suicide rate in young people is increasing tremendously and in a scary way. To me, that’s the worst-case scenario for somebody who’s struggling and certainly struggling alone. They go down that path. For so many people, there’s that stretch of time. A lot of times, it’s a long stretch of time where they’re feeling depressed and anxious and they’re having trouble, but they’re not saying things to people. They’re not letting people know. It could also be that the people they are letting know are their friends, and their friends are struggling also, so they keep it contained.

One of the mantra statements I end up repeating all the time for young people is finding a healthy adult to connect with and to let them know. Healthy adults can come in all different shapes and sizes in terms of who they are. They could be professors, coaches, therapists, neighbors, aunts, uncles, friends, friends’ parents, and all different types of people. It is letting an adult know, and that adult will hopefully help them get to some level of assistance.

You’re right. It’s tragic to hear that it’s happening your way, but honestly, it’s happening in so many different areas of the world. It’s the reality. It’s something we need to pay attention to. Suicide is one of those words. People don’t like talking about it. It’s a scary concept to think about. I always say to families, “If you can’t say to your pubescent kid, ‘You can’t talk about sex,’ then suicide is going to be challenging. Trust me, those topics are a lot easier to talk about than going to a funeral.” It was something along those lines.

There’s so much stigma with suicide. I find when you open the door and you talk about it, whether it’s to the family members who live through it, there’s so much gratitude because people shy away from it. It’s an illness. I’ve overheard people say, “How could that person do that? It’s so selfish. They had kids.” It enrages me. I say, “They’re sick. Would you say that to someone who had cancer?” People don’t understand it either.

Be open about discussing suicide. There is so much gratitude when you do this because many people shy away from it. Share on X

That’s a big part of it. It is interesting, people’s reactions, when that happens. Sometimes, people will get angry. Sometimes, people feel insulted. There’s a whole range of reactions that’s hard to understand. I agree with you. The topic itself could be talked about more. For those individuals who are not suffering from depression or anxiety, it’s hard to understand. It’s complicated.

The number one thing that I put out there around this topic is to connect. Connect with someone. Find somebody to connect with and make sure that that person has your best interest in mind. Young people are suffering in silence. Those people are at risk. I’m glad you brought the topic up. Social media gives us our viewpoint of it. Certainly, there have been a number of very public suicides of celebrities over the last many years that have called our attention to the topic. It does for a small period of time, and then we move on from that.

We very quickly move on. People forget. That’s why it’s important to keep the conversation open. As we’re talking, I’m thinking, “We should do an article maybe about suicide. I’ll put it out there if someone wants to send it in.”

I’m thinking in my head of the shows that I’ve done. It’s amazing how much this topic gets talked about. I interviewed a young lady who is a suicide survivor. You don’t hear about that often, but to listen to the impact and where she was at. She’s 24. As she tells her story, it’s a very common story. There are lots of kids out there that are at risk. I agree with you. As adults in our forties, fifties, and sixties, our challenge is to keep that conversation right there. If we’re able to reduce even one person from taking that leap, then we’ve assisted people.

Avoiding The Easy And Familiar Route

Let me ask you this. In terms of wellness, wellness is one of those areas where we talk about coping skills, parenting, mind-body, different techniques, and so forth. As therapists, we talk about that in counseling. I’m wondering. When you hear the phrase mental health and wellness, what does it mean to you? What comes to mind?

In terms of wellness, for some reason, I always think of the wellness industry. My mind automatically goes to social media. I think of living a happy life in terms of mental health and wellness, and if you have that under control. Mental health is a huge umbrella. Many things fall under it. There are a lot of misconceptions. The main message I would want to get across from discussing mental health would be that it’s so important to work at it.

When people go to the gym, they want to go as much as they can to feel good. It’s the same with mental health. Don’t feel ashamed that you don’t feel okay. People didn’t have the proper word for it. They’re like, “Something feels off. Something is amiss. Something doesn’t feel right,” whether that’s anxiety or depression.” There’s so much to discuss. Did that answer that?

It does. You got me thinking about a few things. I missed this earlier but I want to double back to it for a minute. I want to thank you for your honesty because so many people our age when they talk about their own mental health say, “I struggle with depression. I struggle with happiness. I struggle with anxiety. I struggle with eating disorders.” You’ve had the courage to do that and I applaud you for that. I admire that.

Thank you.

You’re welcome. It’s awesome that you’ve done that. I feel like that does serve as a role model for young people to hear adults say things like, “On the outside, I may look a certain way and I may act a certain way. You may even see me online, but I need you to understand that I’ve had my struggles and I currently have my struggles.” That’s honest. That’s wrapped into mental health and wellness. You’re right. There are a lot of different pieces to it. I like what you said. It’s 100% accurate. It’s one of those things we can’t put down and stop working. It’s like our oral hygiene. We can’t stop brushing our teeth. That’ll be a problem.

That’s what people don’t talk about enough. It’s a lifelong journey. There are ups and downs. When working with young kids, I often say, “It’s like the weather. You can’t have sunny days all the time. It’s going to rain. There are going to be storms. That’s part of your mood and your emotions. Know that it’s okay. It’s a constant journey.” I feel like with every decade, let’s say, you’re facing new struggles. There are new things to work on all the time, like your body changes when you go to the gym. You’ll be doing different workouts and changing it up. It’s the same thing.

That’s a very healthy way of looking at it. Whether it’s counseling, going to the gym, or trying to force yourself to talk openly to people or healthy habits, it is looking at those and saying, “These aren’t things that I do every Tuesday. They’re things that I should be doing all the time.”

When I think of wellness, it’s about the easy route. When you try to take the easy route, life becomes harder. It’s so simple. Working out is hard, but not moving your body will end up harder. It goes on to say a bunch, like easy always has a cost. That’s where I find the familiar hell. When people get so used to struggling, that becomes their level of comfort. Getting to the root cause of why you don’t feel well will make the difference, but getting there is hard, if that makes sense.

When you try to take the easy route, life becomes harder. Share on X

It does.

It should be easy, but it’s not. It takes a lot of work to get there.

You got me thinking when you said that.

That was a lot. I’m sorry.

That’s deep. I appreciate you telling me that. I’m going to repeat that. Easy comes with a cost. I’m even thinking about counseling. Why is it that so many young people need counseling but don’t get it? The simple answer is that they don’t want to do anything that requires that type of work. A lot of people in their forties, fifties, and sixties can recognize that all of the things that we do that are fruitful in life require hard work.

It’s easier to scroll on Instagram for hours than to take twenty minutes to journal or go to an hour-long therapy session. It’s easier to drive to McDonald’s and get fast food than it is to make a stir fry or whatever it may be. For a lot of individuals, they take the easy route. Even with addictions or eating disorders, it’s familiar. You go back to that familiar hell and unfamiliar heaven because it’s easy. It feels strange to stray from what your nervous system knows.

It’s interesting how so many of my patients have been in that familiar world where it’s hellish and it’s uncomfortable but it’s familiar. Changing from that can take a lot of courage. It’s interesting. I’m sure you’ve seen this over the years with people that you’ve known. I’ve had people say to me in their teen years, “I didn’t think I was going to live until I was 21.” I’m talking to them at 26 or 27 and they’re telling me that. They’re talking about having a family. You hear those things and you’re like, “Life does shift and change.”

Sometimes, when we think one thing at a moment, we don’t realize that our thoughts are going to shift and change every couple of years, even in terms of what our future looks like. I appreciate you sharing that. The “familiar hell” is an interesting phrase. I’ll remember it because it’s true. When people are suffering, that’s where they are. One of the biggest reasons I felt so passionate about connecting with people and doing the show is I wanted people to understand that those types of feelings, oftentimes for young people, are normal until they recognize, “There is a healthier normal. There’s a different space that you can be in. They’ll remain in that hellish world.”

That’s important to talk about. Tying it back to social media, influencers and people are comparing our lives to make it look so easy. It’s not. It’s an illusion too.

No matter who I meet, no matter what they’ve done, no matter what their bank accounts look like, and no matter how public they are, I’m always reminded we’re all human beings and we all go through very similar things. As a result, we’re all susceptible. The social media scrolling is a bit of a Pavlovian-type training that we go through where we start to think, “Everybody else has their shit together. What’s wrong with me?” I’m glad you said that. That is spot on.

Jacqueline’s Nominee For Next Guest

First of all, thank you so much for your time and energy and for talking about these topics. I love your viewpoint. I love your honesty. I appreciate you bringing to the table what you did. Part of the show is I usually put people on the spot a little bit toward the end of the interview and ask them to nominate a friend, a coworker, a relative, or someone who they think would be helpful for us to interview next and have on the show. Any thoughts in terms of people that you might nominate?

I do. I have my girlfriend Brittany. She’s on our Tyler Madison Instagram feed a lot. She looks very good in our clothing. She’s a makeup artist and is also open about her struggles with mental health and loves talking about it openly. She’d be an interesting perspective, especially working with women in the beauty industry and doing makeup. She has a lot to say about that. I could give you her information.

I’ll get that from you offline. I appreciate you nominating her. I’m excited to talk to her. It sounds like she’ll have a different viewpoint and give us a sense of her perspective. I appreciate you nominating her. I look forward to getting in touch with her sometime soon. Again, thank you so much. I know you’re busy. I appreciate you making the time.

To those of my readers who didn’t catch it originally, it is ILoveTylerMadison.com. Look them up. They have awesome stuff going on on their website. They have great clothing that they are putting out there, and even more fantastic people behind the clothing. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. You have yourself a wonderful rest of the day.

Thank you so much. You too.

Bye-bye.

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About Jacqueline Harris

Jacqueline brings over 20 years of experience in fashion, alongside a master’s degree in counseling psychology, to her work as a designer and advocate for mental health. Her journey through recovery from an eating disorder inspired her to create a fashion line that promotes both style and self-acceptance.

Recognizing that feeling comfortable and confident in one’s own skin can be a challenge, Jacqueline is passionate about making clothing that serves as a bridge between fashion and well-being. With a deep understanding of the importance of body positivity, she creates pieces that empower people to feel good, inside and out.

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How Teens Should Handle Social Anxiety With Olivia Healey

Finding Purpose In Screenwriting

Dealing With Panic Attacks And Social Anxiety

Impact Of Your Peers On Mental Health

The Negative Impact Of Social Media

How Adults Should Discuss About Mental Health

Anxiety Could Never Stop Anyone

Olivia’s Self-Care Regimen

Olivia’s Nominee For Next Guest

Important Links

About Olivia Healey

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

The Shoulder Check Foundation Story: On Loss, Inspiration, And Making Contact With Rob Thorsen

Kicking Off The Conversation: Rob Thorsen & The Heart Of Shoulder Check

Selling Kindness: How Shoulder Check Is Shifting Mental Health Awareness

Reaching Out Before It’s Too Late: Making Contact & Building Connections

Beyond Words: Emojis, Vulnerability, And Teens Talking It Out

Reflections Vs. Regrets: Learning From Loss & Lifting Each Other Up

The Ripple Effect: How Kindness Touches More Lives Than We Know

Storytelling For Change: Filmmaker Jake Miskin & Shattered Ice

Important Links

About Rob Thorsen

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Being Comfortable With Vulnerability With Brandon Saho

Brandon Saho And The Mental Game

Battle With Depression And Suicidal Thoughts

More Than Just An Athlete

A Man’s Experience With Therapy

Brandon’s Nominee For Next Guest

Episode Wrap-up And Closing Words

Important Links

About Brandon Saho

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Providing Support To Underserved Youth With Damian Gregory

Damian Gregory And The Gridiron G.A.N.G.

Wellness In An Athlete’s World

Open Dialogue With Your Kids

Get In Touch With Damian

Damian’s Nominee For Next Guest

Important Links

About Damian Gregory

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Championing Neurodiversity In The Workplace With Dr. Jen Hartstein

Dr. Jen Hartstein On Mental Capital & Workplace Inclusion

How COVID Changed Mental Health & Emotional Resilience

Teens, Substances & The Problem With Over-Parenting

Failure As A Tool For Growth & Building Resilience

Social Media, Anxiety & The Rising Mental Health Crisis

Empowering Young People & Encouraging Emotional Expression

Athletes, Mental Health & The Role Of Public Figures

Destigmatizing Therapy & Treating Mental Health Like Physical Health

Who’s Next? Passing the Torch

Important Links

About Dr. Jen Hartstein

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Using Music For Change: A Mental Health Advocacy Journey With Shocka

A Transformational Book: You Can Heal Your Life

Losing His Mother & Coping With Grief