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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Greg Hudnall Jr. | Youth Mental Health

Youth Mental Health: Fostering Human Connection In Schools With Greg Hudnall Jr. Of Hope Squad

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Greg Hudnall Jr. | Youth Mental Health

 

Fostering human connection and hope within schools is a vital step in addressing youth mental health. In this insightful episode, we delve into this critical topic with Greg Hudnall Jr., CEO of Hope Squad. We learn about Hope Squad’s innovative approach to empowering students to become active listeners and supportive peers, helping to normalize conversations around mental health and provide crucial connections. Greg shares his unique journey from corporate America to leading Hope Squad, inspired by his father’s dedication to suicide prevention, and discusses the alarming statistics surrounding youth suicide and mental health challenges. This conversation sheds light on the importance of peer-to-peer support, emotional awareness, and the need for communities to recognize and address mental health issues proactively. Greg also provides valuable resources, including HopeSquad.com, for schools and parents seeking to implement effective mental health support systems.

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

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Watch the episode here

 

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Youth Mental Health: Fostering Human Connection In Schools With Greg Hudnall Jr. Of Hope Squad

We are joined by Greg Hudnall Jr. of Hope Squad. Greg, welcome to the program.

Thanks.

A bit about your background, Greg is the Chief Executive Officer at Hope Squad. By background, he spent a decade in corporate America at Kroger Co. and Johnson & Johnson in process improvement, marketing, and sales. Greg firmly believes that good personal mental health habits, active listening, and reaching out to trusted peers have the ability to save lives. When he is not at work, he enjoys hiking, exercising, and reading. A fun fact is that he has climbed 15 of Colorado’s 58 fourteeners. He’s been to 5 continents and lived in 4 different countries. His next bucket list item is Mount Kilimanjaro. Greg, welcome. How are you?

I’m good. Thanks. I’m looking forward to the conversation.

From Corporate To Compassion: The Birth Of Hope Squad

Tell us a little bit about Hope Squad.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Greg Hudnall Jr. | Youth Mental Health

 

Hope Squad is a company. We say that we exist in order to foster human connection, community, and hope. We exist in order to help in that connection. We believe connections have the power to change lives. We exist as an organization. We work within a couple of thousand schools across the country. We help implement what we call the Hope Squad model and the Hope Squad Way, which is taking the peers that are nominated by their peers inside of a school and putting them together with some certified advisor or certified adults that Hope Squad certifies.

We have them work week after week and month after month of a school year in order to help exactly what your show says, normalize the conversation around mental health, and then be that active listening ear for their peers, notice dysregulation or things that perhaps are a little out of the ordinary, and to put their arm around their friends and peers and say, “Can we talk? There’s something going on in your life. What can I do to help?”

What a great concept. I love it. Having worked in the schools my whole career, both private and public at varying levels, what a great concept to bring to a school system and help kids understand mental health and help them understand their role around their peers. That’s fantastic. How long have you been with the company?

I’ve been with Hope Squad full-time for about a year and a half.

Peer Power: Normalizing Mental Health In Schools

I couldn’t help but notice you made a bit of a jump from corporate America to Hope Squad. I’m wondering what’s behind that.

Hope Squad started as an idea by my dad many years ago when my dad was in public education. He worked in public education for 30 years. He was a high school principal, and then he worked at the district office. He lost a couple of students to death by suicide. As a high school principal, he recognized the opportunity that the school system could and should do more.

When he was at the district office, he talked about making a change and trained as many adults in the school system and in the community as he could, and it didn’t impact the death by suicides. They realized something needed to be different and something needed to change. That something was focusing on the peer-to-peer component and the peer-to-peer power. We know that kids are more likely to talk to a peer than they are to an adult. That is what they’re hardwired to do at those ages, especially middle school and high school. As they do so, we want to make sure that the kids they’re talking to are the ones who are empowered and knowledgeable. They have the tools and resources in order to do so.

Kids are more likely to talk to a peer than they are to an adult. Share on X

That’s what my dad was trying to do many years ago. He worked on that when he retired from the school district, and continued to work on that inside Utah. He set up an organization, Hope Squad, in order to help take that to the country and to the world. I was ancillary involved prior to joining full-time. My dad has since retired and provided the opportunity to help take this to thousands of more schools across the country.

Youth Mental Health Crisis: Unveiling The Stark Statistics

What a fantastic concept. I want to back out for a minute and update the parents who are reading. I wonder sometimes as a therapist. You’re in the mental health space. We might take for granted that parents realize how bad an issue this is. I want to throw out a few statistics to illustrate it. First of all, I work with young adults, mostly high school and college-aged. In that age bracket, suicide is the second leading cause of death. To give parents a sense, that has climbed from number 12 to number 2. Anxiety and depressive symptoms are through the roof. They’re as high as I’ve seen in my entire career, both with high school and college students.

It’s unfortunate, but in my area here in Connecticut, I have come across four different scenarios where individuals have taken their own lives. It’s tragic. It’s so sad. There’s such a ripple effect that occurs. I’ve had students of mine tell me about another student that they don’t know too well, but they’re a contemporary of theirs. They hear these stories, and it’s triggering and disturbing for young people.

That doesn’t go away after a week or two. As adults, we think, “They’re back. They’re settled. They’re in their routine,” but it’s a big issue, as far as I can tell, in most communities that have been touched by this. I appreciate so deeply what you guys are doing. My guess is there are a lot of schools out there and a lot of parents out there who would want to get in touch. How do they do that? How do they get in touch with Hope Squad?

The easiest way is to go to our website, HopeSquad.com. There’s a big button right on HopeSquad.com in order to connect. We ask for a little bit of information, including your name and email, in order for us to be able to reach back out and start that conversation about what it looks like. You read a little bit about my background. Maybe it’s my stats degree that pulls at me, but I do want to hit on something.

The CDC does a regular Youth Risk Behavior Survey. I want to point out results from 2023, the same news and trends that you’re talking about, that perhaps put this in stark numbers for our readers out there about what we talk about. The Youth Behavior Risk Survey from the CDC said that 40% of high school kids reported feeling persistent sadness or hopelessness, and then their number is that 10% of kids attempted suicide.

When you look at a classroom of 30 kids, it’s 3 kids. Three kids in any given classroom across the United States had attempted to die by suicide. In almost any age group, from youth, suicide is one of the leading causes of death. These are the numbers that we’re dealing with as communities, as families, and as parents that we have to grapple with on a daily basis.

I’ll be honest. I’m 51. I would guess a lot of parents think, “That’s not happening in our town or in our community.” Yet, it is. There are statistics to prove it. There are examples to prove it, unfortunately. I wonder. What are your thoughts when you hear a parent respond in the manner of, “This could never happen here.”

It’s a tough conversation for the times that we talk with parents and families who have lost a child or a family member to suicide. The truth of it is that a lot of the time, we’ll hear from parents, “I couldn’t believe that it was happening to us.” In any tragic part of our life, when that moment, which can be avoided in many cases, comes to us, we often don’t know what to do. It’s that side of us that’s saying, “I can’t believe that this could happen to us.”

Being perhaps the data nerd that I am, looking at this from that side would be an attempt to say that it does happen in every society, and it does happen in every community across the United States. Being blind to it, perhaps, isn’t going to make the problem go away by not being able to talk about it. One of the reasons I love the name of your show is that we’re doing exactly that. We’re normalizing the conversation around mental health.

The CDC reported data is something that I hope we can attempt not to ignore. The reason we talk about it and plaster it everywhere is so we can start the conversation around how this data exists for kids. At the end of the day, it’s three kids that I care about more than the data of 1 out of 10 or the 3 out of 30 in this classroom. What I care about is those three kids and what they are feeling. Do they have a friend to go to and talk to? Do they have someone to talk to?

As Hope Squad, what we want to do is try to empower those kids, those schools, and those communities in order to have those conversations, and then, when and as needed or when appropriate, they’re elevating that to the likes of therapists and psychologists across the country. The system as a whole, we know, struggles in terms of having the resources to meet the needs. Not every clinical approach is going to help. Often, what we’re trying to do is at that grassroots level of having a peer and sitting down next to somebody, talking, having the conversation, and reaching out.

It’s so important. It’s interesting. I’ve been doing what I do for a while, and the show is fairly new to me. I enjoy learning and getting a different point of view from people. In one of my interviews, we were talking about the show A Million Little Things. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the show. It’s one of my favorites. I was talking to the executive producer. He had asked me a question about what resonated with me.

It got me thinking about a scene in the first show when an individual was in the middle of trying to kill themselves. He had a mouthful of pills. Something tragic happened to a friend at the same time, and he spit them out. What got me about that scene was that for several episodes, he never told anybody. Here he is, looking to end his life, and he is holding this secret.

I can’t begin to tell you how many young people have come into my office over the years and told me something similar. When I ask them the question, “Who knows about this?” The answer’s always the same, which is, “You’re the only person.” I want parents to understand from this conversation as much as possible that there is a secretive nature to all of this.

Kids, even if they haven’t told you they’re struggling, they very well might be. The statistics show that many kids do. It becomes important to try to figure out a way to access those conversations. Your organization, through peers, does a great job of making that happen. I wanted to shift and ask you a little bit about the why. Why are these numbers so off the charts? Why are they so extreme? In your opinion, why have they gone in that direction in the last couple of years?

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Greg Hudnall Jr. | Youth Mental Health

 

Digital Disconnect: Social Media’s Impact On Youth Wellbeing

I’m no social scientist, so why is a tough answer for causation. Perhaps I’ll speak a little bit from correlation. I don’t know the full reason of the why. I’m sure it’s multifaceted. I’m positive of that fact. I do think that as we continue to live our lives around cell phones and away from the connection that we used to get, that helps drive perhaps feelings of isolation. We’ve never been more connected in a digital space, and we’ve never been more unconnected in a friendship or a relationship in a tangible way. That’s part of it. It’s one that’s concerning to me.

I have little kids. I think about Jonathan Haidt’s The Anxious Generation and the way that I want to try to approach my kids growing up with their access to social media, for example. I am not saying that the internet or cell phones are bad, but what are the tools and the way that we use them? Are we protecting our kids too much from the physical world and not enough from the digital world? How do we have a healthy balance from that?

As parents, we have the opportunity to look around and make sure that our kids are getting the connection that they need at those ages that we’ve talked about, middle school and high school. At the end of elementary, they’re hardwired to look to their peers for that connection. What is the way that they’re getting the connection? What is the way that we, as parents, are fostering that connection for these kids?

That’s very well said. There have been a lot more, on the principal level, restrictions on phones during the day in middle schools and high schools, which is great. I’ve seen many more kids with their heads up, walking in hallways and on campuses in 2025 maybe than I have in the last many years as a result of that. That’s not to be underestimated. That connection and that ability to have a conversation have a direct impact on the isolation many kids have felt over the years. It’s important for parents to understand that impact. I always say social media is like having a swimming pool. It can be a lot of fun, but you have to respect the hazardous side as well.

That’s a good analogy.

There clearly is a hazardous side. There are a lot of things out there. Honestly, the show became something I wanted to develop mostly because of these types of conversations that I feel like can help parents parent their kids and help them understand. There isn’t a playbook here, but there are plenty of resources out there, you being one of them and your organization being one of them, to help guide a sense of, “You may not have a lot of contact with depression, anxiety, or suicide, but know it’s out there. Know that even if your kids aren’t struggling, they’re around people who are struggling, and that can have an impact as well.”

Great point. The comment that I’ll make is you’re right. Some of those kids are going to be the ones who get nominated to a Hope Squad. They’re the ones who are the resource that other kids come to. One of the reasons we say that Hope Squad works so well in any community and any environment is that it’s not the adults who are choosing the Hope Squad members. It’s the peers, so it’s meant to be reflective of your community. It’s meant to be reflective of the community that it’s in.

We've never been more connected in a digital space, and we've never been more unconnected in a friendship or a relationship in a tangible way. Share on X

It is having a voice of that band student, that football player, or whoever it is that gets nominated to the Hope Squad because they’re a good listener. They’re the ones who then sit all year long with the trained advisor. They’re working on the content, the warning signs, and risk factors of suicide, and then are like, “How do I do a better job of recognizing disconnection? How do I practice reaching out to somebody? How do I overcome my own fear, put down my own phone, reach out to somebody that I haven’t seen for a couple of days or that looks maybe a little bit different than they normally do, ask a question, and make a connection?”

That’s so fantastic, the way in which you guys created this, going at it from a kid’s perspective and understanding. I was thinking, as you were talking, of the social hierarchy that a lot of schools have. There are a lot of peer opportunities in schools, but this cuts through all of that in a way that everybody is available to do this. It’s not so much about a need. It’s more about a want, and which of you kids wants to participate, learn these skills, grow, and feel like you’re helping or assisting in some way?

To be honest, Greg, most kids need that. When I say to kids, “Have you known somebody who has either taken their life or tried to take their life?” They do. Most kids have a list of kids. They’re living amongst that. They’re living in this world. It makes being a kid hard, in some ways. To flip it back to us as parents, it makes parenting those kids challenging as well.

Let me ask you a little bit more about parenting. You touched on social media. There’s so much around the dos and don’ts, if you will, of parenting and what we ought to be looking at versus what some parents are looking at. I’m wondering. Your organization must have a decent amount of contact with parents. Do you tend to get lots of support from parents or lots of parents not supporting you? What kind of feedback do you typically get from the parenting point of view?

First off, I’ll say that to be a Hope Squad member, you have to have a signed parent permission form. Any Hope Squad member in the entire country, every single year, has to return a signed parent permission slip. That’s the bar. At a minimum, parents are aware and are allowing their child to participate in Hope Squad. That’s number one.

Number two, it’s amazing the positive impact we get from parents. Once parents understand what we’re trying to do and the positive impact that it makes on their child and the school community, we have such a positive response from parents. If parents go to our website, they’ll see a video from a lady who is a Hope Squad mom and considers herself a Hope Squad mom. She starts out the video by saying, “Some parents are parents of band kids, and some parents are sports parents. We’re a Hope Squad family. We’re Hope Squad parents.”

Their kids all independently got nominated to be a part of the Hope Squad. She said it was a culture that they fostered within their home to make sure that their kids were reaching out and being aware of other kids. As she talks about that video, that is reflective of the majority of parents out there in response to their interaction with Hope Squad.

One thing we’ll notice is that as Hope squad members grow up, graduate high school, and move on to other parts, we’ll have them reaching out to us in later years in college and thereafter. You see that that influence extends far beyond school. I’m sure those parents, in the same exact way, are appreciative of the way that Hope Squad is providing beneficial mental health awareness, at the very least, to these kids long-term.

The hope is for kids who participate in Hope Squad or other great groups out there to become self-aware of their own emotions, so that they can take those moments to pause. Share on X

I love that. That’s fantastic. What a great culture to lay down for kids. The impact of that, honestly, you guys may not even necessarily know or hear about, but my guess is it develops exponentially in some ways in the future.

We hope so.

Empowering Emotions: Preparing Teens For College Transition

Let me ask you about one other question. As a therapist, I see a lot of high school kids late in high school transitioning to college. I’m wondering about your perspective on mental health and wellness, in general, of that population of kids.

Through the transition from high school to college?

Yeah.

It’s perhaps more pronounced, but almost no different than that change we see, especially if they change campuses. For a kid going from elementary school to middle school or middle school to high school, there’s a lot of that big change that happens. What I’m hoping is that kids who participate in Hope Squad or other great groups out there in a similar way are becoming self-aware of their own emotions, so that they can take those moments to pause.

When I was in school, we certainly didn’t talk about self-care. We certainly didn’t talk about mental and emotional awareness to the degree that we do. What I would think about with these kids is making sure that they are able to articulate their feelings. Brené Brown’s book came out with 83 or 85 different emotions. It takes me looking at those on a page in order to be able to articulate what those are.

There’s the opportunity as someone graduating from high school and going to college, and that fear or anxiety as you set yourself up in a new dorm room for the very first time. As parents, we look at that and we think, “This is a great opportunity. Look at all the great memories that I have.” Sometimes, we perhaps overlook and forget the anxiety that we had ourselves on that first day, settling into a new dorm room with new roommates, etc.

We are helping to normalize, which is the name of your show, the feelings that they’re having so that they can understand, “Feelings don’t own me and don’t control me. I get to decide what I do, but I’m going to recognize this feeling for what it is. At this moment, it’s perhaps a little fear, perhaps a little anxiety, or whatever it is. We can talk through it.”

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Greg Hudnall Jr. | Youth Mental Health

 

There are so many great points there, and I want to pull one out. At the very least, one of the things your organization does and does well is helping kids understand their emotions. Feeling an emotion is one thing. Acting on it is another. We all have felt fear. We all have felt frustration, stress, anxiety, and all of those things. Sometimes, kids will be paralyzed by those feelings. Others will see them coming and be able to take steps to shift away from it.

At the very least, we need to be aware, know that it’s there, and recognize that those are things that can have a major impact on us. I appreciate the thrust of what your organization does because, in many ways, the solution to helping reduce so many of these numbers and these statistics starts with this. It starts with that awareness.

That’s why we also operate in elementary schools with the primary purpose of trying to teach around that awareness of emotions.I have a 5-year-old. What better time to help kids to help them understand and then ask. When they’re in a moment when they need to ask for help in recognizing their own feelings, either they need a moment in the quiet corner or they need to ask for help with an emotion, what better time for someone to learn than in elementary school before they get to middle school or high school and they haven’t developed those skills?

They don’t know when to ask for help. They are reaching for other things, like cutting and something else, that perhaps is the less productive form of asking for help or reaching out for help. One of our main focuses and goals is trying to reach more kids in the elementary space for exactly this reason. They’re normalizing that conversation around mental health and mental well-being in the elementary level as they grow up in middle school and high school, and then it becomes part of the culture. It becomes part of the conversation.

It’s brilliant. That’s the way it needs to happen. As it’s done early that way, it becomes a normal part of what kids do, versus this being something new and different. It’s a brilliant move on your behalf. To me, the earlier the better, honestly. There are a lot of opportunities there. The way the show is set up is that I generally will ask for people to nominate a friend, a coworker, or a relative. Emma Benoit was so kind to nominate you. That’s the way we’re able to keep the conversation moving forward. Let me ask and put you on the spot for a minute. Is there anyone you’d like to nominate in your world?

I do. Before I do that, I want to give a shout-out to Emma Benoit for the gracious offer that she gave of nominating me. Working for the organization that I do, where nominations mean so much, I am grateful for Emma. She is such an inspiration. I worked with her for probably around a year, but I got to meet her for the first time a few months ago in Mississippi. I’m grateful for all that she does and the way that she does it, and even more than what she does, but the way that she does it. I’m grateful for the example she is.

I’ve known her for a couple of years. She’s in one of our episodes. I’ve done an interview with her already. She was amazing and, in many ways, a role model for young adults, and for them to look at how there is an opportunity here for change. She is a change agent. I feel like she’s a pioneer as a young adult, laying the groundwork for the future for so many different young people. Back to you.

To be clear, it’s also not just young adults. I aspire to be like Emma. If I can grow up and be a lot more like Emma, I’ll have succeeded in a lot of ways.

Well said.

Let me do a shout-out. I spent some time thinking about this, mostly because of Emma’s nomination. There’s a great organization out of South Dakota that’s called Helpline Center. The CEO of the Helpline Center is Janet Kittams. I want to give a shout-out to Janet and her organization for the way in which they run 988 inside of South Dakota and also for the way in which they help support Hope Squads throughout the state. She and her organization are doing, not just saying, helping to normalize the conversation of mental health and mental well-being, and supporting Hope Squads in the process.

I really appreciate it. As they say, it takes a village. It sounds like she’s doing some amazing work. For those of you who don’t know, 988 is a national suicide hotline available for individuals to contact if they are having thoughts and need support. I look forward to reaching out and connecting with Janet. Thank you so much for your time and all that you do at Hope Squad. Your organization seems amazing. I look forward to continuing to stay connected and continuing to work with young adults and assist them. Thank you.

It was a pleasure. Thanks.

Have a great day. Take care.

You, too.

 

Important Links

 

About Greg Hudnall Jr.

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Greg Hudnall Jr. | Youth Mental HealthGreg is the current Chief Executive Officer of Hope Squad.

He spent a decade in corporate America at The Kroger Co. and Johnson & Johnson in process improvement, marketing, and sales roles.

Greg firmly believes that good personal mental health habits, active listening, and reaching out to trusted peers have the ability to save lives.

When he’s not at work he enjoys hiking, exercise, and reading. Fun facts: he’s climbed 15 of Colorado’s 58 fourteeners. He’s been to 5 continents and lived in 4 different countries. His next bucket list item is Mount Kilimanjaro.

 

Reading about mental health is hard. Let’s schedule a free consultation.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Trina Clayeux | Mental Health

Breaking Mental Health Barriers With Dr. Trina Clayeux

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Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Trina Clayeux | Mental Health

 

Mental health challenges are more visible than ever, and yet access to proper care remains a major hurdle. Marc Lehman sits down with Dr. Trina Clayeux, CEO of Give an Hour, to discuss innovative solutions for mental health support, including peer-to-peer networks and expanding resources beyond traditional therapy. Dr. Clayeux shares how her organization tackles the mental health crisis by providing free services to veterans, their families, and communities in need. They also explore the importance of suicide protection, the evolving role of self-care, and why businesses must rethink mental health in the workplace. Tune in as they challenge outdated models and offer real-world strategies for making mental health care more accessible.

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Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Breaking Mental Health Barriers With Dr. Trina Clayeux

We are joined by Dr. Trina Clayeux. Thank you for joining us, Trina. I appreciate you being here. I’m going to do a quick intro on you. We’ll read through a little bit about who you are and what you’re doing, and then we’ll chat. Trina serves as the CEO of Give an Hour, which is such an awesome organization. I can’t wait to hear more about it.

Trina brings a wealth of experience at the intersection of education, employment, and mental health. Her prior roles include the COO for community-based education and affordable housing organizations, director of a national emergency Military base closure event, and executive officer for a national corporate network supporting Military spouse employment. Dr. Clayeux holds a PhD in Leadership Studies and a Master’s in Public Administration. She’s a passionate advocate for the Military and veteran communities and draws on her experience as a Military and veteran spouse to foster meaningful change. Trina, welcome.

Thank you so much.

The Mission Behind Give An Hour

Thank you for joining us. I’m so excited to talk to you. I would love to chat with you and know a little bit about Give an Hour. Tell us about your organization.

Thank you again for your interest. We are going into our twentieth year, so we’ve been around for a minute. We were founded in 2005, and it was in direct response to 9/11. Our founder saw around the corner in 2005 not a lot of talk about mental health, and certainly in the Military at that time. It wasn’t talked about or discussed a lot. It was quite detrimental to avoid that conversation in order to keep your job and employment.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Trina Clayeux | Mental Health

 

What she had envisioned was having a network of mental health professionals across the country, all licensed, who came together to give an hour of free mental health care to those Military veterans and their loved ones. It was unlimited and it was barrier-free. It was like getting connected to clinical care. What I love, too, was that it was looked at not as a 2 or 3-session and it was done and it included the family. It is understanding that anytime we’re talking about mental health, we’re always talking about a family unit. That’s involved. I know it’s hard to even envision now, but it was so unique.

Fast forward to about 2021, I became the CEO after our founder moved on into the federal sphere. We also saw there are not nearly enough mental health professionals and it’s not the solution for everyone. It’s not accessible for everyone, to be quite frank. We added peer support as another option for folks, which is people with lived experience helping other people, and more self-directed psychoeducation materials and things that people can do on their own. The idea is when you come to Give an Hour, you have a choice. It’s looking at an empowering way to set out on your own mental health journey and have the tools, resources, and support to get what you need out of it.

The spirit in which you guys have been organized and grown is so awesome. You guys are pioneers in terms of what you’ve done and where you’ve been. I can’t tell you having worked 25 years in the field as a therapist how many times I’ve heard people say things like, “It’s the way we’ve always done it.” I’m sitting and going, “It’s broken. That doesn’t make any sense to me.” As a therapist, I created a second practice called You Are Heard. U Are Heard is a virtual private practice. Knowingly, I was stepping into this world that other people hadn’t been in before. When COVID hit, I became the pro. Everyone was calling me and asking, “How do you do this?”

I admire your business’s ability to find ways and get people help in a world where the demand is up here and the providers are down here. Those families that are reading or the kids that are reading that haven’t gotten help, number one, this is a way for them to, and number two, I want them to know we’re aware of this discrepancy. People like your organization and yourself are doing things to solve that issue.

You’re right. It’s a collective. We all have roles to play. Mental health therapists have a role to play. People who are more of friends, family, and allies have a role of becoming more self-educated. If that were the case, then we could take some of the burden off of mental health professionals. Our network of active mental health professionals is about 4,000 across the country.

We also pour into our mental health professionals, realizing that there aren’t a lot of places and spaces for them to get what they need. We do peer support. Everything we offer customers, we offer our mental health professionals. We do peer support. We do continued education credit with no charge to them based on what they say they want and need in terms of training.

While we hope you can give an hour, we also realize it’s bigger than that. We need to keep, maintain, and retain the people that we have. We have this whole early career of people going into therapy who are coming out who feel unorg. Where is their community? They’re getting pushed out, not negatively, but you go out there and the demand is so high. If you don’t have a community and a support system, you can get lost in that. You can experience professional burnout and all the things that go with that. We’re hoping to be part of that solution as well.

That’s fantastic. I love that it’s being addressed. When I was doing my homework, I was watching one of your videos. You said, “How do we mobilize a nation during a mental health crisis?” It’s such a great question because there’s a portion of the population in this country that doesn’t even realize we’re in a mental health crisis until they’re in the midst of it, like a parent with a kid or themselves.

Recognizing that’s where we’re at is stressing all of the systems involved, the therapists all the way down, and what can we be doing about it. Tell me more about the peer-to-peer because, for years, we’ve always done it like, “If you have a problem, you go see a therapist and talk it through.” That’s how it goes. Tell me about the peer-to-peer.

Why Peer Support Is A Powerful Solution

Communities have been using the peer model for so long. It’s so powerful. It has a marketing problem because it’s been so challenging to explain to folks that I see it on the continuum of clinical care. It’s equal and different. It is equal in the impacts of it. The effects of it are so incredibly strong and powerful, and there’s a different need depending on what you’re looking for in your life.

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We follow what’s called a trauma-informed reciprocal model, which is to know that people with lived experience are great folks to have to be able to engage with other people with lived experience. You can learn from each other and you can support each other. We spend a lot of time in training to make sure that people with lived experience understand a good setting and good boundaries for them. It can be very exhausting.

We introduce psychoeducation materials that they can bring into a group setting so people can use these tools not to just hand them out but also to talk through them. There’s a lot of sharing. Sometimes, it’s being acknowledged. We’ve worked in populations that have experienced some unique things. We’ve worked in mass violence and mass shooting events. What we heard from people was therapists are great for a particular part of that, but to be around other people who’ve had a similar experience where you don’t have to explain everything. You’re part of a unique community. That’s been so healing. They would ask for things like, “Can we talk to this author who wrote a book about trauma?” We could bring the author and you could have fireside chats. It was this continued shared experience.

We run groups that are virtual peer support groups for a variety of things. It could be anything from victims and survivors of financial fraud, Military and veterans, and people with chronic diseases. It gives you a place to find your tribe. It’s so powerful. We do have clinicians who oversee it but they’re not the center of it. It’s a peer connection.

I love it. For years, I’ve been fascinated by the concept Alcoholics Anonymous offers. Their veterans bring their newbies in and they’ve had that shared experience. By giving that, those eventual newbies become veterans. It’s so awesome. We could all learn something from that in that the older models need to be separated. I’m the first one to say as a therapist that those people are very helpful more than therapists sometimes to be able to relate to them individually.

I love hearing you say that. We do have a percentage of people who are going to therapy that maybe could benefit rather from a peer model, which would also free up some of the higher-need therapeutic interventions that aren’t accessible. Mental Health America has it out that it’s 1 therapist for every 350 people. In some places I know, like in the Phoenix metro area, it’s 1 for every 660. These are big numbers.

Do you want me to blow your mind on college campuses?

What?

It’s 1 provider nationally on average for 1,700 kids. It’s terrible.

We can’t solve it by pumping out more therapists.

Correct.

That’s going to be an option. It’s affecting all places, like the workforce. Especially in the last few years, the workforce has been struggling. What I’m always fearful of is it’s going to be that boomerang effect where it’s like, “This is too hard. It’s too much,” and we’re going to go and spring back hard. Part of it is trying to equip people to say, “We can do things at the workplace that don’t involve a ton more investment.” I know some companies that are putting so much money into mental health, which is fantastic, but they’re not feeling the needle move. We’re still missing that human connection part. It’s so much embedded in that.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Trina Clayeux | Mental Health

 

That’s why peer support and therapy is so effective. It is equipping people to be able to have human conversations that are productive, have tools built into them, feel genuine and empathetic, and acknowledge how people are experiencing life without becoming too pathologized and stuck, like just talking about anxiety, depression, and post-traumatic stress. We have to take action. We have to have movement there. I feel like that’s a part that hopefully we’re able to bring.

I love the concept. I work with a lot of college students. Part of what I’ve been doing is I have a model that brings people who are already on campus to work with students who are nonclinical and to be able to use those resources. Some are peer-to-peer with shared experiences. Some are individuals who are simply learning how to be a therapist. We don’t have enough therapists. We could sit all day long hiring more people or finding more people but eventually, we’re going to run out. You guys have jumped to the concept that we need to do it differently. Peer-to-peer is such a powerful move and such a great idea.

There are a few of the topics that we tend to go over on the show and I would love to get your point of view on some of these things. Self-care is one of those buzz phrases that are used a ton. I talk about it a lot with the students that I work with. I’m curious. When you think of self-care for people, what comes to mind?

This might be an era I’m in. I believe that it’s around tools and practices that make self-care work. The way that I feel like it’s been talked about is it tends to gravitate towards getting your nails done or moving away from people. It’s always some sort of isolating behavior. You take some time for yourself. I agree with all that. It’s always trying to find your own rhythm. For many communities, it’s leaning into people. That’s where they find self-care. It is with friends and family. I don’t know that we talk about that as much. To me, it’s an exclusion.

I’m a huge proponent of finding tools, routines, and practices that work. As a former college student, it is scheduling out the things that are important that bring you a sense of peace. I always think of movement. Some kind of movement is always good. It could be getting outside in the morning before classes start. We undervalue the importance of it until we start being in touch with our mind, our body, how we react to that, or what happens when we start grinding and we are not taking those moments.

What works for me doesn’t work for someone else. What works for them isn’t going to work for someone else. It doesn’t have to take up your whole day, but if you miss it, you miss out on the compounding effect of it. That’s why it’s the routine and the practice and prioritizing it but also realizing there’s not a magic thing.

Sometimes, we’re looking for something where we do it three times and we’re like, “I breathed and it didn’t work. That clearly is not going to work.” It’s the compounding effect. It’s the routine of it. It’s also the reinforcement of your commitment to something. There’s almost self-esteem that comes with practicing something over and over. You’ll never get good at anything if you don’t do it over and over.

I agree.

People are sometimes looking for something else or something that doesn’t require energy. It’s so much of the basics, like eating well, getting some exercise, and making sure you get some sleep and hydrating.

Those are the fundamentals.

People are like, “Those aren’t sexy. What else is there?”

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You said a lot of interesting things but one important thing stood out to me. You said leaning into being social. I find so many kids lean into these or gaming, or whatever it might be that removes them from actual contact. I’m thinking about that as you said that. Whether it be a spin class, a yoga class, a photography group, or a get-together, it doesn’t matter what they’re doing. The routine of it, like, “Every Tuesday night, we go do this,” is awesome. That’s one of the reasons why I like asking that question because everyone defines self-care a little differently. It’s also one of those things that is so important to our wellness.

I agree. I was at a training with emerging adults in the Military from ages 18 to 26. We were talking about that. That’s a sign from their baseline if they start withdrawing. They were like, “We’re always asking them to go out.” It was like, “What if you went in?” You’re trying to do another perspective. There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with gaming and all that, but if it’s taking up all of your space and you don’t have a lot of margins for other people and in-person interaction, then a tool is to put a timer on it or put some limits on it.

It was then like, “Go into where they are. Grab some food or go game with them,” because what you’re trying to do is make a human connection. What we tend to do when we’re upset, stressed, and all the things is withdraw. I do the same. I have to force myself. I was like, “I’ll get it together and then I’ll lean back in on people,” instead of, “If I’m feeling this way, I should lean into people and I bet I will feel better faster.”

Understanding Rising Suicide Rates Among Youth

It’s such an interesting concept. The instinct, at least for younger people, is to not, but I like how you said that. That’s certainly a big one for young people. Another big one is the statistics for mental health are not great. Especially for our younger population, let’s say high school and college-aged, the suicide rate has climbed to number two in terms of cause of death. To give our audience a sense, a couple of years ago, it was twelve. It has clearly risen. It’s a topic nobody likes to talk about, but unfortunately, it’s right there in our faces often. I’m curious. As you listen to the stats moving in the wrong direction, what are your thoughts as to why they might be?

I’ll go back to more of what I hear because I do a lot of reading of that. Any of these statistics are always troubling when they’re trending in a direction. They’ve been encompassing more demographics of young people where we’re seeing Black and Brown young people were more protected from this and we’re seeing an uptick. There’s so much to pay attention to.

A lot of where our focus is is on suicide protection. How do you get more people with eyes and ears on colleagues, friends, and people they’re around and then notice the signs or notice when people are withdrawing, when they seem agitated, when their personality changes, and things like that, and then know how to say it? It’s not what to say but how to say and direct it. Especially in something like that where you need to ask direct questions, much of it is going against the stream of like, “What if I say something I’m not supposed to say?” It’s like, “We need you to say something and acknowledge.”

We do a lot of practicing to get people more comfortable with that conversation. There’s no script or anything, but more of some points of like, “Here’s where you lean in. Here’s a persistent push to go a little bit further. Don’t let somebody say, “I’m fine,” and then go, “Okay,” and move on. Go ahead and do some persistence.

I was mentioning working with the Military. The rates there been high for active duty as well. It has gone in that direction.  We’re in this emerging adult. One of the things I find so fascinating is that years ago, I felt like this emerging adult was part of adult. That could’ve been my naivety. It was like, “You’re not a kid but you’re not an adult-adult. It feels like it’s been carved a little deeper over the last couple of years for all the reasons that we know where the needs are different but unique. This is a group that wants you to understand them and isn’t accepting to get some generalized help. They want us as people in their lives to understand what’s happening.

I meet more people who have been impacted in some form or fashion by suicide. People are alarmed. We’re alarmed by it, but it is also remembering there’s so much before. There’s so much space there before that and the things that happened over time before we even get to that conversation. I feel like empowering people from all walks of life to be able to recognize the signs, say what needs to be said, ask questions, lean in, and know how to get people help is part of the strategy. It’s not the whole part. There’s so much before that that we’re seeing in everybody’s day-to-day life. There is a lot of noise.

No doubt. Mental health first aid is something that comes to mind. It’s been taught a lot in both high school and college campuses to get people to understand what those signs are. I love that phrase, suicide protection. I haven’t heard that before. I’m going to reuse that. Hopefully, that’s okay.

It’s not mine. There’s a good distinction because it feels like we’re all part of something in protection.

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It’s wise to say it that way. It’s an unfortunate part of the trend but it is part of the trend. We need to acknowledge that and then look at the things that we can do. There’s a lot that goes on before a person takes their own life. Honestly, as I talk to my colleagues frequently, it’s pretty rare that I talk to someone who isn’t around it. It has become more pervasive and out there.

It’s part of the landscape and us looking at what are those things we’re able to do to help protect those individuals that might be sliding down that slope. Your words were wise and important for young people to absorb. One of the big flaws that a lot of young people walk around thinking is, “Nobody will understand,” and yet there are a lot of people out there who understand.

I also feel like people want to connect with other people. You want to lean in. If I knew that somebody I didn’t even know was suffering in some way, I wouldn’t even hesitate. It would be a natural lean-in. We’re all built that way. What I do find though is the fear of saying the wrong thing, messing it up, or feeling uncomfortable. That’s part of what we’re trying to break through. This generation is going to be the one to do it. I believe they’re so primed, so leaned in, and so interested.

Our model has always been listening to what people want and need, helping them get what they want and need, and then finding out if it is working or helping. If not, we’re going to keep iterating and keep supporting. The more you listen to folks and you’re not trying to give them something they’re not asking for, they trust you for sure, but they see that you’re invested. They’re then more willing to share with you the real intricacies of how they’re thinking, how they’re relating to information, and how they’re making decisions.

A lot of what we try to do is make sure that people get to be in the space that they’re at but add to it. We talk a lot about drinking. Young people mostly don’t have a defined relationship with alcohol or drugs. They’re still figuring that out. How do you preserve where they’re at? You can add options like, “Did you ever think that you could do a two-and-done instead of full abstinence?” which isn’t always realistic to talk about.

Maybe a tool in there is mindful drinking where you have a plan for that evening before you even leave. Are you going to do two and you’re going to get an Uber, and you’re going to go home by 10:00 so you can get steady? It’s things like that. We see with young people that if you engage in the conversation and they’re contributing to it, they are more receptive to go, “I could add that. I might not do it, but now I have 4 things that I’ll do instead of 3.”

I like how you said that. I had someone ask me many years ago, “How do you work with teenagers? They don’t talk to me,” or something like that. I said, “The premise of my style is non-judgment.” Kids walk into my office and I give them the benefit of the doubt right off the bat, and they know that. They begin to trust me as a result of that and they’re able to work with me. That’s what you’re talking about. It’s the non-judgment piece.

Instead of us as adults telling them, “You have to do this,” let’s meet them where they are. It’s like, “Let’s figure this out together.” I also love what you said earlier. I do agree with you. With this generation, as ugly as the statistics are, the upside is that they are going to be way more open and have been way more open about mental health and some of the solutions that are out there and helping kids. I agree with you on that one.

Building A Culture Of Mental Health Awareness

What’s interesting about that, too, is that there is going to be convergence. All these social institutions and emerging adults are trying to do their part and realizing that it has to be a together thing. Your business is not going to take care of all your mental health needs. The sooner you come up with that, probably the happier you’re going to be. You have a responsibility to yourself to lean into some of these practices and tools, educate yourself, and do your part.

There’s the middle part, which is where we all need to grab things that are available or not available in a lot of ways. It’s that, “Now is a time that I do need a mental health professional. Now is a time when I need a peer supporter. Do I need that friend I can ugly cry with?” You have to start pulling things into your life. That becomes some of the empowerment.

When I was coming up, you went where other people pushed you. It was like, “You need a therapist,” or, “You need this.” You’re always waiting for something else to happen as you are going. There’s a triggering event that pushes you on it rather than you saying, “This is a time where I’m recognizing that I need additional help or I need some support, or I need to ask a question.”

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Trina Clayeux | Mental Health

 

This, to me, is some of the most exciting work, which is how you help equip emerging adults or young adults and how you help equip a business, an industry, and a workplace to bring these things together so everyone has roles and responsibilities but you’re all working towards the same thing. We want a happy, healthy workplace. We want to be happy, healthy people, hopefully, but it does require effort and a level-setting of expectations too.

You made me think in terms of work. People are asking about vision, dental, and whatnot. It’s another thing that an adult does in terms of maintenance of self. If it’s time to see a therapist, go see a therapist. If it’s time to do something else, then go do something else. Those are the choices that people make. You’re either maintaining yourself or you’re not. I like that last thought of working together to get to a common place of happiness. Let’s face it. We all want to be happy in life. Let me ask you one last question. Can I put you on the spot for a second?

Okay.

Encouraging Open Conversations About Mental Health

I created this show so that we could have open dialogue, which we’ve had here. I’m so thankful we’ve had it with you Trina. To keep the conversation moving forward, I generally ask people to nominate a friend, a coworker, or a relative, someone who you think would be great for me to interview next. Any thoughts in terms of a person who would be good to have on the show?

I do. I have a colleague that I’ve worked with, Jenn Graham, who is the CEO of Inclusivv. This is so in line. They do work around civil discourse and topics such as mental health. It is teaching people to have productive, balanced, and curious conversations in the workplace and elsewhere. It is more of a movement of civility around mental health. She’s a ball of joy, too.

Thank you for the nomination. I’ll get her information from you offline. I’ll look to get in touch with her and have her on the show at some point soon. More importantly, thank you for your time and spending it with us and giving us your perspective on mental health and wellness.

Thank you. I appreciate it. I enjoyed talking with you.

I did as well. Have a great day.

Thank you.

Take care.

 

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About Dr. Trina Clayeux

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Dr. Trina Clayeux | Mental HealthDr. Trina Clayeux brings a wealth of executive experience in workforce development and mental health to her role as CEO of Give an Hour. With a proven history of visionary leadership and innovation, she has made significant contributions in enhancing access and the delivery of vital services within her field.

Her career spans various impactful roles, including tenure as Chief Operations Officer for social impact organizations, director and assistant dean for community college systems, and multistate coordination of a Department of Defense base realignment event and a national corporate network for military spouse employment. Having herself been a military and veteran spouse for many years, she possesses an innate understanding of the distinctive challenges and opportunities inherent in this community, making her a dedicated advocate for their personal and professional growth.

Dr. Clayeux holds a Ph.D. in Leadership Studies from Gonzaga University, a Master of Public Administration from Portland State University, and multiple certifications that underscore her commitment to excellence in her field. She has received recognition from esteemed organizations such as the National Association of Development Boards for her innovative approaches and the Sailing Award for leadership excellence.

Moreover, Dr. Clayeux’s fervent dedication to knowledge sharing and catalyzing positive change has led her to present at numerous state and national conferences. Her presentations have covered topics that include optimizing employer and employee performance through person-centric design, to cultivating trauma-informed workplaces, and implementing contextual mental health practices that foster social connections and high-performance outcomes.

In her present role at Give an Hour, Dr. Clayeux continues to harness her executive acumen, profound expertise, and unyielding commitment to enhancing lives, grounded in the belief that each one of us can contribute to the betterment of mental health, for life. Most recently Dr. Clayeux is leading the way with the mental health ‘Pod Squad’, a leadership group with the Stand Together Foundation; as well as developing the Veteran Workforce Toolkit in Partnership with The University of Phoenix.

In her downtime, Trina enjoys athletic activities and completed a full Ironman, two half Ironman’s and hundreds of running events. She remains active with her husband, a retired veteran of 26 years, and two children.